Voeckler doping?

[MacRoadie]

Come on, today we saw Contador and Sanchez dropping off the back of a lead group containing Voeckler while they were going up the Galibier. In the third week of a grand tour.

The third week of Contador's second grand tour in a row. A grand tour where he's crashed several times and received medical aid for his knee, and one at the end of which he might just get a significant suspension. he has a lot going on physically and mentally. He might also be getting tested like a mother for all we know.

I'm not going to hazard a guess on how effective the bio passport is, or how the new testing might be reducing the type or amount of doping this year, but you can't use Contador as a barometer, at least not this year, as his circumstances aren't solely at the mercy of his doping program.

If we're casting aspersions we should probably be asking how Cadel, with absolutely no help from anyone else, singlehandedly dropped Contador and Sanchez, and pulled back almost two minutes on Schleck (although I do realize this is the Voeckler thread).

 

[Polish]

a stupid question - how did voeckler himself explain his surprising performance ?

i mean i did come across his own assessments about grit and luck but has he claimed changing anything in his basic training and preparation ?

such as - new altitude training routine, lower body weight, new coach etc.

i know a rider can use these claims as a smoke screen for doping but did voeckler use ANY smoke screen picked up by the media or bloggers?

It is too bad Tommy did not spend more time in a wind tunnel.
Train more on his TT Bike. Train Train Train.
Also a shame that the rest day IV rehydration is no longer allowed.
Tommy V also does not have a lazer like focus on winning the tour.
Or that "take-no-prisoners" killer attitude grrrrr.
No excuse for Tommy not reconning the courses in the springtime.
Hill repeats repeats and repeats some more.

It would be lucky if Tommy WINS this year's TdF.
Can't depend on luck though.
If you want to win - you have WORK.

That said, I am really rooting for Tommy and Cadel these next few days.
Allez Allez Allez! Yell Yell Yell!

 

[hrotha]

a stupid question - how did voeckler himself explain his surprising performance ?

i mean i did come across his own assessments about grit and luck but has he claimed changing anything in his basic training and preparation ?

such as - new altitude training routine, lower body weight, new coach etc.

i know a rider can use these claims as a smoke screen for doping but did voeckler use ANY smoke screen picked up by the media or bloggers?

I *think* he said he didn't do anything differently this year. By contrast, today the Spanish commentators said that Pierre Rolland had started working with a coach this year, actually planning his peaks and all that.

 

[MacRoadie]

a stupid question - how did voeckler himself explain his surprising performance ?

i mean i did come across his own assessments about grit and luck but has he claimed changing anything in his basic training and preparation ?

such as - new altitude training routine, lower body weight, new coach etc.

i know a rider can use these claims as a smoke screen for doping but did voeckler use ANY smoke screen picked up by the media or bloggers?

I believe I read somewhere that he has quite a few more racing days than Contador and a number of other riders in the top ten. That, coupled with a strong early season MAY (and I will readily admit it is a big MAY) might suggest he simply came into this Tour in much better condition than he has been in the past. I don't think he has changed his preparation, in fact he said he probably should have reconned that descent yesterday rather than just watching it on video.

He's also always been somewhat enigmatic in that you never knew when he was going to attack and which stages he had targeted (I'm not sure even he knew). While no one will ever try to say he is a great climber, his general style of searching for breaks and stage wins would logically mean a lack of interest in performing in the mountains.

Just some food for discussion.

 

[pmcg76]

Obviously those things are all factors, but how have they only benefitted Voeckler and nobody else? Where are all the other cyclists who can now keep up with the slower times up the mountains, and are now taking advantage of the indecision of the big guys?

Come on, today we saw Contador and Sanchez dropping off the back of a lead group containing Voeckler while they were going up the Galibier. In the third week of a grand tour.

If Voeckler was less likeable, everybody would be screaming that he is a doper.

It's nice that people can still have faith, but the recent history of cycling is a pretty solid base to argue upon against a 32-year old puncheur mixing it up with the best GT riders of the last 5 years.

I would just like to point out that there are quite a number of young French guys in the Top 20 currently. There is Rolland, Jeanneson and Coppel all battling it out for the white jersey whilst another rider (Taaramae) on a French team is currently leading. The AG2R guys have been very visible in the mountains, especially Peraud in his first Tour I think, top 10.

No way would there have been 5-6 French guys in the Top 20 during the Lance years, they struggled to make the Top 30.

Basso is nowhere near the rider he was in 04-06, Cunego claims to be clean. Contador looks incredibly ordinary as does Sanchez even though he was going well. I really think it is a case of the sport getting cleaner or the French all starting to dope big-time.

 

[luckyboy]

The third week of Contador's second grand tour in a row. A grand tour where he's crashed several times and received medical aid for his knee, and one at the end of which he might just get a significant suspension. he has a lot going on physically and mentally. He might also be getting tested like a mother for all we know.

Yeah that was a weak point, just wanted to emphasise that Voeckler is finishing ahead of the best climber in the world here.

Rest of my post still stands up though.

 

[sniper]

a stupid question - how did voeckler himself explain his surprising performance ?

i mean i did come across his own assessments about grit and luck but has he claimed changing anything in his basic training and preparation ?

such as - new altitude training routine, lower body weight, new coach etc.

i know a rider can use these claims as a smoke screen for doping but did voeckler use ANY smoke screen picked up by the media or bloggers?

he has publicly stated he hasn't targeted the tdf podium in his preparations. If that's true, he has prepared with the purpose of winning 1 or 2 stages, like he does every year, not with the purpose of being consistently great in the mountains day in day out.
his smoke screen was to act surprised by his own performances.

 

[roundabout]

I would just like to point out that there are quite a number of young French guys in the Top 20 currently. There is Rolland, Jeanneson and Coppel all battling it out for the white jersey whilst another rider (Taaramae) on a French team is currently leading. The AG2R guys have been very visible in the mountains, especially Peraud in his first Tour I think, top 10.

No way would there have been 5-6 French guys in the Top 20 during the Lance years, they struggled to make the Top 30.

Basso is nowhere near the rider he was in 04-06, Cunego claims to be clean. Contador looks incredibly ordinary as does Sanchez even though he was going well. I really think it is a case of the sport getting cleaner or the French all starting to dope big-time.

At a glance it seems that Evans produced a performance pretty well comparable with Schleck/Contador on the Tourmalet last year if not better. The relatively low gradient and the weather conditions helped keep the group together so I suppose it counts in Voeckler's favor a bit.

Anyhow, at this moment I'm not expecting Voeckler to collapse tomorrow. A top-10 finish on the stage is very realistic and I'll get my stopwatch out.

 

[luckyboy]

I would just like to point out that there are quite a number of young French guys in the Top 20 currently. There is Rolland, Jeanneson and Coppel all battling it out for the white jersey whilst another rider (Taaramae) on a French team is currently leading. The AG2R guys have been very visible in the mountains, especially Peraud in his first Tour I think, top 10.

No way would there have been 5-6 French guys in the Top 20 during the Lance years, they struggled to make the Top 30.

Basso is nowhere near the rider he was in 04-06, Cunego claims to be clean. Contador looks incredibly ordinary as does Sanchez even though he was going well. I really think it is a case of the sport getting cleaner or the French all starting to dope big-time.

It's almost definitely cleaner than those years.

With regards to the amount of guys in the top 20, don't forget that Horner, Leipheimer, Klöden, Brajkovic, Gesink, VDB2, Vinokourov, Kreuziger, and Wiggins have all dropped out or carried on injured and are way down.

 

[Roninho]

Can anyone give me some examples of riders that had the mega succes late in their career in the past 20 years? And if these riders where found to be doping later or if they seem to be dope free?

Because i can't think of anyone.

 

[maltiv]

Earlier I said that I still had some faith in Voeckler but I lost it today.

 

[pmcg76]

It's almost definitely cleaner than those years.

With regards to the amount of guys in the top 20, don't forget that Horner, Leipheimer, Klöden, Brajkovic, Gesink, VDB2, Vinokourov, Kreuziger, and Wiggins have all dropped out or carried on injured and are way down.

You are right of course but its not just placings, its the proximity of the French guys to the top riders in relation to time lost. They seem to be a lot closer on mountain stages than I can remember anyway.

 

[Winterfold]

Has it been pointed out that if Voeckler was not in the break on the stage Vino and VDB2 crashed out on this thread would not exist?

Too good a rider to gift 5 minutes.

The argument that lots of other French riders are taking places that favs who crashed out is a good one - but you could counter that is because the gap between the doping GC elite and the rest is much smaller - so the rest feel they can go for it hence more crashes

Overall I much prefer a less doping so French can do well than a the french have given up hypothesis

 

[luckyboy]

Yeah that's true. Still, Voeckler challenging for the Tour GC is an almighty stretch. (@pmcg76)

 

[luckyboy]

Has it been pointed out that if Voeckler was not in the break on the stage Vino and VDB2 crashed out on this thread would not exist?

Too good a rider to gift 5 minutes.

3'54" to be precise. Anyway, he's climbing with the very best of the GC guys so..

 

[pmcg76]

Yeah that's true. Still, Voeckler challenging for the Tour GC is an almighty stretch. (@pmcg76)

Yep, even I would admit that Voeckler's performance has been amazing, particularly today. Like most I had expected him to drop away in the Alpine stages, I still though Top 10 was possible but it looks like he will podium at this rate.

I would give him more kudos for his climbing ability than he was noted for as I think he rarely gave it his all in the mountains previoulsy but it still far exceeds anything I thought he was capable of. Rolland for that matter also but as always I keep an open mind to all possibilities.

 

[D-Queued]

a stupid question - how did voeckler himself explain his surprising performance ?

i mean i did come across his own assessments about grit and luck but has he claimed changing anything in his basic training and preparation ?

such as - new altitude training routine, lower body weight, new coach etc.

i know a rider can use these claims as a smoke screen for doping but did voeckler use ANY smoke screen picked up by the media or bloggers?

He has just said that Schleck and Contador has given him one of their bottle!

I heard Contador treated him to steak last night.

Dave.

 

[frenchfry]

I justed signed on the the forums today.

I don't keep up with all the specifics about cyclists who dope but Vocklers performance throughout this tour seems extremely suspect. Like someone else mentioned he has pulled a Rasmussen.

How does he ride so aggressively during the first week on the flat stages trying to get away from the peloton then climb into the yellow jersey and maintain it for so long? In the Pyrenees He was covering every single attack/acceleration all the while dancing on his pedals. Every other GC contender was heads down grinding it out and Vockler was at the front looking at everyone's face as if to say, "Hey guys aren't you going to go again?".

My BS meter just went off the charts seeing how fresh he looked/looks compared to everyone else. And they all let him get the yellow only because he was never expected to all of a sudden become a mtn climber.

I see his grimaces as a ploy for the cameras. When he jumps to cover an attack he looks so fresh!!! His domestique seemed to only be there for just in case he needed a bike change. It just doesn't seem very realistic. I guess France has their Lance Armstrong now. I wonder if the TDF is gonna let Vockler get away with it being that he is France's hero. After all he has increased viewership in France which means more $$$ for all involved at the TDF.

Yeah I'm jaded.

And maybe he has a book deal in the works as well. Just trying to follow the quality of your reasoning.

 

[function]

Can anyone give me some examples of riders that had the mega succes late in their career in the past 20 years? And if these riders where found to be doping later or if they seem to be dope free?

Because i can't think of anyone.

Moncoutie, chavanel? There are more..

 

[blackcat]

Horner, Leipheimer, there are more

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

How about that: Everybody of those "great climbers" rode 6.4 W/KG and Voeckler cleanish 5.8 in around 2004.

Now the not so great climbers ride cleanish 6 W/KG, especially after the plasticzier indroduction in 2010, and Voeckler is still at 5.8 (not loosing time when drafting behind a 6 W/KG rider).

Then the results of 2011 with TV going for the podium do make sense.

 

[Roninho]

Moncoutie, chavanel? There are more..

I mean climbing with the 5 best climbers in the tour and being a serious contender for the GC in the TDF.

 

[hrotha]

Moncoutie, chavanel? There are more..

You might want to pick better examples. Both of them were promising youngsters, touted as the next big thing, and they had results to back it up.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

You might want to pick better examples. Both of them were promising youngsters, touted as the next big thing, and they had results to back it up.

Practically anyone who succeeds in pro cycling is promising as a youngster, and rightfully so.

 

[Cloxxki]

How about that: Everybody of those "great climbers" rode 6.4 W/KG and Voeckler cleanish 5.8 in around 2004.

Now the not so great climbers ride cleanish 6 W/KG, especially after the plasticzier indroduction in 2010, and Voeckler is still at 5.8 (not loosing time when drafting behind a 6 W/KG rider).

Then the results of 2011 with TV going for the podium do make sense.

Are you saying this tour is without great climbers, or without doped great climbers?
I would expect and accept TV to climb a bit better in this TdF than 2004. If he's always been clean, he should be seen as a great climber, just an invisible one, being a pro rider.