Voeckler doping?

[hrotha]

Pretty conclusive that climbing speeds are WAY down this year.

Doesn't mean anyone is clean, but it means it's possible to compete clean.

Something I was thinking about... If we agree ~6 W/kg is the maximum power you can produce in the final climb of a tough stage while clean (no need to get more specific than that for the sake of this argument), and riders doped to get to that upper limit but without going above, wouldn't we have very close races where everybody would be within "clean" performance margins, but where lesser riders would actually be getting an unfair advantage?

 

[Willy_Voet]

*sigh


...snip...

but after today he kept up with the contenders on an extremely hard and aggressively ridden stage. and imho thats a sign that he and some of his team members are doped to the gills most likely beyond levels of dope said contenders are taking.

The UCI should dump the Biopassport and utilize the vast collective expertise of The Clinic™

 

[MacRoadie]

*sigh

.... people were saying that he only kept the jersey in the pyrenees because the racing was conservative and the contenders were saving themselves.

then on monday due to contador's attacks the race was much more aggressive and it looked like he was cracking and lost some time. that would go according the "he can keep up with the contenders when they aren't going all out but when they go all out he will lose time" theory.

but after today he kept up with the contenders on an extremely hard and aggressively ridden stage. and imho thats a sign that he and some of his team members are doped to the gills most likely beyond levels of dope said contenders are taking.

Say it as slowly as you like.

Exactly how "aggressive" was it? How many riders threw counter-attacks? One. Evans. How much time was gained back on Schleck due to him going too early versus Cadel, as the ONLY rider doing work "chasing"? Even then, Evans didn't "attack" so much as rider consistent tempo. Stiff tempo? Yes. Attacking, surging tempo? No.

Was it a consistently hard stage? Yes. Were there the repeated attacks that usually signal the demise of riders like Voeckler? Absolutely not.

 

[frenchfry]

Rolland and Voeckler are unbelievable. higher cadence

Maybe there is something to that higher cadence thing after all!

 

[hrotha]

Say it as slowly as you like.

Exactly how "aggressive" was it? How many riders threw counter-attacks? One. Evans. How much time was gained back on Schleck due to him going too early versus Cadel, as the ONLY rider doing work "chasing"? Even then, Evans didn't "attack" so much as rider consistent tempo. Stiff tempo? Yes. Attacking, surging tempo? No.

Was it a consistently hard stage? Yes. Were there the repeated attacks that usually signal the demise of riders like Voeckler? Absolutely not.

But I thought the reason Voeckler made it through the Pyrenees was that they rode by accelerations, which suits him best. Now it's tempo riding that suits him best. I'm confused.

 

[Altitude]

He's never climbed like this before, and he's 13 lbs heavier than he was in 2004. I don't believe it for a second. I think he's doped and I hope he gets busted.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

He's never climbed like this before, and he's 13 lbs heavier than he was in 2004. I don't believe it for a second. I think he's doped and I hope he gets busted.

where'd you get that?

 

[Parrulo]

i wonder what would be the reaction of the people saying voeckler's performance is believable if instead of being voeckler doing this it was some1 like Rinaldo Nocentini doing it

 

[Altitude]

He said it in an interview with CycleSport. August 2011 issue.

 

[AeroAdvantage]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/voeckler-makes-it-twenty-days-in-the-yellow-jersey

“I saw that Andy attacked very early,” Voeckler commented at the finish at the top of the Galibier. “I didn’t even try to follow him. The previous days in the hills, I’ve tried to react to some accelerations and it wasn’t a good thing to do.

Voeckler admitted that he had suffered like hell in the last 300 metres of the stage, as he strained to preserve his lead. “I lacked oxygen, it was hard for me to recover, my legs hurt badly,” he said. “

The suffering is enormous

But everyone knows that Andy Schleck is a better climber than me,”

I don’t want to think about what’s going to happen tomorrow. I only want to take a rest.”

Thomas Voeckler Doping ? Not a chance.

It's time to stop this nonsensical thread and give Thomas Voeckler the credit he deserves. Great rider.

 

[MacRoadie]

But I thought the reason Voeckler made it through the Pyrenees was that they rode by accelerations, which suits him best. Now it's tempo riding that suits him best. I'm confused.

That should teach you not to listen to Phil and Paul...

A rider like Voeckler, with his morphology, isn't going to respond well to the chirpy attacks of the lighter climbers. Just look back on the threads from yesterday. Several comments on Voeckler being in the big ring at one point as he followed Basso through one of the switch-backs.

Voeckler is a grinder. That's what makes him excellent as a rolleur in the breaks. On longer, more sustained (and consistent) climbs, he can use that to his advantage. Repeated short attacks are what will be his downfall. At some point, gradient certainly comes into play, but to some extent grinding is grinding, whether it's into a headwind on the Massif Central or a sustained climb in the Alps. It's when the grade really kicks up quickly, or someone elevates the tempo quickly and repeatedly that guys like Voeckler suffer.

 

[Willy_Voet]

He's never climbed like this before, and he's 13 lbs heavier than he was in 2004. I don't believe it for a second. I think he's doped and I hope he gets busted.

That's about a 10% weight gain. He hides it well.

 

[frenchfry]

But I thought the reason Voeckler made it through the Pyrenees was that they rode by accelerations, which suits him best. Now it's tempo riding that suits him best. I'm confused.

There were accelerations in the Pyrenées? I must have missed them.

As one of the ultimate cynics regarding doping in pro cycling, I can understand the doubts around Voeckler's and Rolland's performances. There are, however, a number of arguments towards why they could be clean. I don't know if I really believe they are clean myself, but at some point I would like to believe that a clean cyclist can do well in the TDF because doping has been significantly reduced. Has that point in time arrived? Who knows. I just don't think a knee jerk "he is doing well, he must be doping" is justified in every case.

In any case, Voeckler's performance the past 10 days has been outstanding no matter what we may think about his preparation.

 

[frenchfry]

That should teach you not to listen to Phil and Paul...

A rider like Voeckler, with his morphology, isn't going to respond well to the chirpy attacks of the lighter climbers. Just look back on the threads from yesterday. Several comments on Voeckler being in the big ring at one point as he followed Basso through one of the switch-backs.

Voeckler is a grinder. That's what makes him excellent as a rolleur in the breaks. On longer, more sustained (and consistent) climbs, he can use that to his advantage. Repeated short attacks are what will be his downfall. At some point, gradient certainly comes into play, but to some extent grinding is grinding, whether it's into a headwind on the Massif Central or a sustained climb in the Alps. It's when the grade really kicks up quickly, or someone elevates the tempo quickly and repeatedly that guys like Voeckler suffer.

In an interview just before the start, he was asked who's wheel he thought he should follow. The answer: Evans, because he doesn't accelerate sharply.

 

[hrotha]

There were accelerations in the Pyrenées? I must have missed them.

Of course there were accelerations on Plateau de Beille. No real attacks, of course, but lots of 50-meter accelerations. Voeckler is an explosive, puncheur-like rider, so there's been some talk about that kind of racing (short accelerations, followed by periods of recuperation) being in his favour.

I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Altitude]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/voeckler-makes-it-twenty-days-in-the-yellow-jersey












Thomas Voeckler Doping ? Not a chance.

It's time to stop this nonsensical thread and give Thomas Voeckler the credit he deserves. Great rider.

Are you under the impression that you don't suffer on dope? You still suffer, it just takes more effort to make it happen. You could have the greatest capacity for suffering on the planet, but that won't make up for lack of physical ability. Doping will.

 

[MacRoadie]

Of course there were accelerations on Plateau de Beille. No real attacks, of course, but lots of 50-meter accelerations. Voeckler is an explosive, puncheur-like rider, so there's been some talk about that kind of racing (short accelerations, followed by periods of recuperation) being in his favour.

I agree with the rest of your post.

Andy Schleck going hard for 50 meters then stopping, all the while nobody reacting isn't an attack. It's an attack when others are forced to respond to your acceleration and expend energy doing so.

That monkey business in the Pyrenees was anything BUT attacking

 

[WorldsGreatest]

Of course he is.

 

[MacRoadie]

In an interview just before the start, he was asked who's wheel he thought he should follow. The answer: Evans, because he doesn't accelerate sharply.

Apparently, Tommy is as "clueless" as I am regarding his own strengths and preferred riding style...

 

[hrotha]

Andy Schleck going hard for 50 meters then stopping, all the while nobody reacting isn't an attack. It's an attack when others are forced to respond to your acceleration and expend energy doing so.

That monkey business in the Pyrenees was anything BUT attacking

Yes, that was the general thrust of my post.

 

[frenchfry]

Yes, that was the general thrust of my post.

Then we agree on everything!

 

[MacRoadie]

Yes, that was the general thrust of my post.

Sorry, was agreeing with you there. The combative nature of this thread seems to make one overly defensive...

 

[Jeanne]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/voeckler-makes-it-twenty-days-in-the-yellow-jersey












Thomas Voeckler Doping ? Not a chance.

It's time to stop this nonsensical thread and give Thomas Voeckler the credit he deserves. Great rider.

Great rider...yes. Not doping because he says that stuff and suffers? HAHAHA!

 

[bigloco]

I'm going to toss out my whack ball theory...

He's not doping.

In fact, very few if any are in this, the 2011 Tour de France.

Why?

The Plasticizer test. They're afraid of it big time. They obviously know its out there and there isn't an easy work around (yet)

Just my hypothesis!

 

[luckyboy]

I guess they just use blood bags which don't contain plasticisers

http://www.lubrizol.com/Medical/Applications/MedicalBags.html

Lubrizol’s engineered polymers are used in many medical devices, and their usage continues to grow. They are often chosen because they can fulfill product requirements without the use of plasticizers and BPA.
Potential applications within the medical bag market include:
Blood bags
Ostomy bags
IV bags

http://www.acereport.org/deception.html

Non-PVC IV bags, which contain no phthalate plasticizers, have been on the market for twelve years

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/390510146/PP_Non_PVC_IV_Infusion_Bag.html

http://www.bbraunusa.com/images/bbraun_usa/IValert.pdf