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Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2023, March 20-26

Page 87 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Sure, change the subject and be smug. We will indeed see how it plays out.
Characterizing my response as a change of subject after you state an off hand opinion and then calling me smug? That is simply not a superior line of defense.
I've analyzed, defended and analysed Remco as much as our broadcasts allow. Remco is who he is and marginalizing those that have managed to beat him does his reputation no service, either.
 
solo effort or whatnot....We shall see how this plays out, shall we? Oh, he couldn't drop Roglic again today.
You just need to know one thing. For the beliebers of remco, when he wins it's like national holiday, and when he loses, they can find 386543 excuses/justifications for the fact that he lost. Some live in a fantasy world and they even blame the DS of quick step that was in the car.
They can't accept that sometimes, other riders can be more strong than remco. That's life.
On this last week they were always taking credit of roglic, and minimize his wins. The narrative that they want to show, is that roglic just won because of remco mistakes.
Generally in cycling 99% of the times, the better rider wins. Roglic was the stronger.
 
You just need to know one thing. For the The narrative that they want to show, is that roglic just won because of remco mistakes.
Generally in cycling 99% of the times, the better rider wins. Roglic was the stronger.
Remco undeniably botched the finish of stage 5, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Roglic only won because of that. He outfoxed Evenepoel by being the supreme wheelsucker that he is, partly because he had to (stage 3), partly because he just can't stick his nose out into the wind without risk (stage 5), because it goes against his desire to capitalize on others work. So to state emphatically that Roglic was simply stronger is a bit of a stretch. He was not, just more clever. To prove your claim Roglic would have had to drop Evenepoel in an offensive attack, but didn't, or else there would needed to have been a TT to settle the matter, but the was not. So, if anything, I'd say this time it was a draw.

But oh wait there will be a full 3 TTs at the Giro and plenty of multi-mountain stages too, thus it should be no problem for Roglic to demonstrate the superior prowess you give him.
 
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Remco undeniably botched the finish of stage 5, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Roglic only won because of that. He outfoxed Evenepoel by being the supreme wheelsucker that he is, partly because he had to (stage 3), partly because he just can't stick his nose out into the wind without risk (stage 5), because it goes against his desire to capitalize on others work. So to state emphatically that Roglic was simply stronger is a bit of a stretch. He was not, just more clever. To prove your claim Roglic would have had to drop Evenepoel in an offensive attack, but didn't, or else there would needed to have been a TT to settle the matter, but the was not. If anything, I'd say this time it was a draw.

But oh wait there will be a full 3 TTs at the Giro and plenty of multi-mountain stages too, thus it should be no problem for Roglic to demonstrate the superior prowess you give him.
:rolleyes:
I challenge you to find one legit cycling DS, rider, or commentator who thinks Roglic should have shared the work.
 
but for all intents and purposes that was his own fault for sprinting first and too soon. Roglic did try to drop Remco with two late attacks on stage 5, but couldn't any more than Remco could shed Primoz. Yet these late digs of Roglic were mostly to not look like a total wheelsucker, which he pretty much had displayed up to that point.
I'm quite sure you got this part wrong.
Him sprinting too soon did not come from nowhere, but was provoked by Primož playing stop-and-go with him and the accelerations he did were not attempts to drop Remco before the sprint or (lol at egocentricity of ones perspective of the world) look good to his fans, but the very stop-and-go provocations that Primož can do (and endure) much better than Remco can. Best thing Remco could do at that point was try to "TT" his way to the line, ignoring Primož. But even if he didn't start the all-out sprint too soon... the great difference in power at the end can not possibly be explained only with the 100m of draft Primož got in the uphill sprint, he had hundereds of watts in reserve compared to Remco.
 
:rolleyes:
I challenge you to find one legit cycling DS, rider, or commentator who thinks Roglic should have shared the work.
He can do whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean I have to like his wheelsucking on stage 5, when instead of Remco going on the attack for the enth time it could have been Primoz, when Roglic had the legs to do so (stage 3 was another matter, as he could only follow). But Primoz won't do that, because it's not his style to take the initiative, since he always calculates the costs versus the risks.

I just hope that Remco has learned from this and that he pulls over hard and stops forcing the pace the next time Primoz sits on his wheel. In other words, force Roglic to actually race and, above all, not allow him to gain something from your own efforts.
 
I just hope that Remco has learned from this and that he pulls over hard and stops forcing the pace the next time Primoz sits on his whee
I just hope that Logic is your friend comes along to explain you that Remco is Indurain, not Contador type of climber and that Primož likes (de)accelerations while climbing better, so Remco would be going into another unfavourable terrain if he stoped ridding while Primož is behind.

Best way to make sure Primož is not stuck on Remco's wheel, is to be ahead of him in GC, maybe you'd be better of hoping for that.
 
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I'm quite sure you got this part wrong.
Him sprinting too soon did not come from nowhere, but was provoked by Primož playing stop-and-go with him and the accelerations he did were not attempts to drop Remco before the sprint or (lol at egocentricity of ones perspective of the world) look good to his fans, but the very stop-and-go provocations that Primož can do (and endure) much better than Remco can. Best thing Remco could do at that point was try to "TT" his way to the line, ignoring Primož. But even if he didn't start the all-out sprint too soon... the great difference in power at the end can not possibly be explained only with the 100m of draft Primož got in the uphill sprint, he had hundereds of watts in reserve compared to Remco.
But only because Remco spent his watts too soon, that's what you got wrong. It wasn't 100 meters to the line, but more like 50. And Roglic benefitted from the carrot Remco dangled in front of him when he jumped too soon. Roglic would have waited to open up the sprint, such that Remco would not have blown himself before reaching the line.

The other thing is that Remco should have swerved over to force Roglic to take up the pace making, before Primoz decided it was safe enough to have a couple of digs and make Evenepoel come back to him. Consequently, Evenepoel needs to become less bullish and more clever when climbing into the ring with Roglic. He should force Roglic to come out of his corner sooner and, above all, not open up his defences to thereby expose himself to that sneaky combo or uppercut. But I think Remco and S-QS, if they are smart, will have learned much from this first fight.
 
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I just hope that Logic is your friend comes along to explain you that Remco is Indurain, not Contador type of climber and that Primož likes (de)accelerations while climbing better, so Remco would be going into another unfavourable terrain if he stoped ridding while Primož is behind.

Best way to make sure Primož is not stuck on Remco's wheel, is to be ahead of him in GC, maybe you'd be better of hoping for that.
I don't agree with this, because I'm saying that if Remco isn't able to drop Primoz that he desists from pulling him up the mountain to the point at which Roglic can make his calculated accelerations. Because I gaurantee you Roglic isn't going to actually take any initiative before he feels he can take advantage of the work others have done - unless he is forced to (and by so doing, doesn't have control of the situation to his liking). For Roglic needs that control to plan his mischief. Take that control away from him and doubtless he's finished.

Your Indurain analogy is flawed because Miguel rarely attacked, but paced himself up the climbs. This was often because he could rely on defensive riding from the huge advantage he gained in the TTs. Hence Evenepoel isn't an Indurain type, because he attacks. If anything he is more similar to Hinault.

I don't need Logic to explain anything to me, since you brought it up, although I'll consider anything one has to say, but perhaps you should rethink your analysis.
 
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solo effort or whatnot....We shall see how this plays out, shall we? Oh, he couldn't drop Roglic again today.
yes.

but everything changes, all tactics change, if you have a TT.

of course remco would have to gain seconds at least (no sure thing), but a stage race that never provides that as one of the tests of the GC contestants is a weakened stage race.

bring on the giro. tactics will likely be wholly different should remco gain an advantage in the ITTs.

if he does not, then rog is simply better all around, no argument from me.
 
Your Indurain analogy is flawed because Miguel rarely attacked, but paced himself up the climbs. This was often because he could rely on defensive riding from the huge advantage he gained in the TTs. Hence Evenepoel isn't an Indurain type, because he attacks. If anything he is more similar to Hinault.

hmm. he may be an indurain type, he is just not provided with 100+ kms of TT to gain the advantage that indurain could.

i have always thought he was badger-like, particularly in temperament. however, he is a better climber. he may not be as dominant at TT actually. the badger was hugely dominant. then again, like indurain, he benefitted from lots of TT kms.
 
hmm. he may be an indurain type, he is just not provided with 100+ kms of TT to gain the advantage that indurain could.

i have always thought he was badger-like, particularly in temperament. however, he is a better climber. he may not be as dominant at TT actually. the badger was hugely dominant. then again, like indurain, he benefitted from lots of TT kms.
The Badger was hugely dominant until he found a worthy opponent in his own teammate Lemond.

Today with the sophistication of the aero equipment and rider position, it's becoming harder to make the kind of differences Big Mig crushingly gained in the long TTs of his era.

However, I'm fairly confident that Evenepoel's superior TT power output will yield significant gains against Roglic in the Giro. I expect Remco to give Primoz between 1-1:30 minutes in the first two Corsa Rosa TTs. If not Roglic will be in the best shape of his life, which is a possibility.
 
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I just hope that Logic is your friend comes along to explain you that Remco is Indurain, not Contador type of climber and that Primož likes (de)accelerations while climbing better, so Remco would be going into another unfavourable terrain if he stoped ridding while Primož is behind.

Best way to make sure Primož is not stuck on Remco's wheel, is to be ahead of him in GC, maybe you'd be better of hoping for that.
That's why the TT's will be important. Especially the first one will tell us how they lay in the balance and how much time either stands to win or lose. If Evenepoel could give Roglic a small blow, that would change race dynamics for the coming weeks and Roglic could not afford to stay passive. On the other hand, if Roglic can keep his losses to a minimum, or even beat Evenepoel, we could be seeing a repeat of what happened in Catalunya. Considering the first TT's are mostly flat, i think they will favor Evenepoel by some margin.
 
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I don't agree with this, because I'm saying that if Remco isn't able to drop Primoz that he desists from pulling him up the mountain to the point at which Roglic can make his calculated accelerations. Because I gaurantee you Roglic isn't going to actually take any initiative before he feels he can take advantage of the work others have done.

Your Indurain analogy is flawed because Miguel rarely attacked, but paced himself up the climbs. This was often because he could rely on defensive riding from the huge advantage he gained in the TTs. Hence Evenepoel isn't an Indurain type, because he attacks. If anything he is more similar to Hinault.

I don't need Logic to explain anything to me, since you brought it up, although I'll consider anything one has to say, but perhaps you should rethink your analysis.

Let's hope by the time the Giro rolls around, somebody at Quickstep reminds Evenepoel he isn't a Contador type climber, but an Indurain type climber. Mindnumbingly idiotic.

You even liked his post... so you're saying you did not only forget, but also changed your opinion.

Nothing new happened at this race (as you're saying Roglič has been racing like this for years now), so I don't think a smart person got any new information (and I don't think Remco is necessarily stupid), but I agree it's always good to learn.

Your guarantees about Roglič... hehehehe ^^
 
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The Badger was hugely dominant until he found a worthy opponent in his own teammate Lemond.

Today with the sophistication of the aero equipment and rider position, it's becoming harder to make the kind of differences Big Mig crushingly gained in the long TTs of his era.

However, I'm fairly confident that Evenepoel's superior TT power output will yield significant gains against Roglic in the Giro. I expect Remco to give Primoz between 1-1:30 minutes in the first two Corsa Rosa TTs. If not Roglic will be in the best shape of his Life, which is a possibility.

agreed.

only one caveat: he first found a worthy opponent in his own teammate Fignon - that made him switch teams and then recruit Lemond. 1984 was kind of the typical battle between two all arounders - one who climbed better and one who still could TT better. Same again with 1985 and 1986. Again, all you need is two equally talented all-arounders. one will likely be better at TT and the other climbing, for them to then fight it out (TDF 1975 and 1989 are prime examples).

Lemond often said that the riders knew who the real contenders were and they could be counted on less than the fingers of one hand.

I believe it has been an egregious error on the part of modern GT designers that they have superficially tried to get more riders in that very exclusive club. It has watered down the contests, elevating riders that should never have been in consideration while diluting what it should take to be crowned winner.
 
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You even liked his post... so you're saying you did not only forget, but also changed your opinion.

Nothing new happened at this race (as you're saying Roglič has been racing like this for years now), so I don't think a smart person got any new information (and I don't think Remco is necessarily stupid), but I agree it's always good to learn.

Your guarantees about Roglič... hehehehe ^^
For the record, I wasn't "liking" the post for the analogy between Remco and Indurain, but for basically stating Evenepoel royally botched that finish.

So, no, I haven't changed my opinion, but at the time simply never stated it.

I wasn't implying Remco is stupid, that's your insinuation, but that in this first battle if anything of value for the next encounter is to be taken as a lesson; it's that if you can't shake him you have to make Roglic work and not allow his negative riding to control the game.
 
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That's why the TT's will be important. Especially the first one will tell us how they lay in the balance and how much time either stands to win or lose. If Evenepoel could give Roglic a small blow, that would change race dynamics for the coming weeks and Roglic could not afford to stay passive. On the other hand, if Roglic can keep his losses to a minimum, or even beat Evenepoel, we could be seeing a repeat of what happened in Catalunya. Considering the first TT's are mostly flat, i think they will favor Evenepoel by some margin.
I agree with everything, but I think if Primož will be in a really great form, he might give Remco trouble in the high mountains even if he will ahead in the GC (Remco has not yet show the level that would match Primož best, but it's certainly not impossible for him to have it) as accumulating the lead reserve is much more important over 3 than 1 week race.
I also believe Primož can equal or win even on flat TT if in really good form (which so far looks almost likely). (but that's one fans wishes vs anothers)
But the overal logic of significance of TT is indeed correct regarding what we saw this week and the question of whether Primož will have the incentive to be more agressive or not
And it just can't come soon enough to settle the debate :D
 
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agreed.

only one caveat: he first found a worthy opponent in his own teammate Fignon - that made him switch teams and then recruit Lemond. 1984 was kind of the typical battle between two all arounders - one who climbed better and one who still could TT better. Same again with 1985 and 1986. Again, all you need is two equally talented all-arounders. one will likely be better at TT and the other climbing, for them to then fight it out (TDF 1975 and 1989 are prime examples).

Lemond often said that the riders knew who the real contenders were and they could be counted on less than the fingers of one hand.

I believe it has been an egregious error on the part of modern GT designers that they have superficially tried to get more riders in that very exclusive club. It has watered down the contests, elevating riders that should never have been in consideration while diluting what it should take to be crowned winner.
Second caveat: Fignon, apart from an exceptional performance in the 84 Tour, was not of Lemond's calibre as a TTist. He himself said so in his book.
 
Characterizing my response as a change of subject after you state an off hand opinion and then calling me smug? That is simply not a superior line of defense.
I've analyzed, defended and analysed Remco as much as our broadcasts allow. Remco is who he is and marginalizing those that have managed to beat him does his reputation no service, either.
We were discussing rouleur capacities, your retort is that he was again unable to drop Roglic. While that has been a condition i have to my memory always stressed. If he is able to get a small gap, then indeed Evenepoel being a far better rouleur, would ride away from Roglic quite comfortably. You are free to disagree, but i then fear you simply have not analyzed him quite as well as you think you have. And if "We shall see how this plays out, shall we? Oh, he couldn't drop Roglic again today." is not acting smug, then you sure had me fooled.
 
I agree with everything, but I think if Primož will be in a really great form, he might give Remco trouble in the high mountains even if he will ahead in the GC (Remco has not yet show the level that would match Primož best, but it's certainly not impossible for him to have it) as accumulating the lead reserve is much more important over 3 than 1 week race.
I also believe Primož can equal or win even on flat TT if in really good form (which so far looks almost likely).
But the overal logic of significance of TT is indeed correct regarding what we saw this week and the question of whether Primož will have the incentive to be more agressive or not
And it just can't come soon enough to settle the debate :D
I think you are getting a bit ahead of yourself here. There is little to suggest Primoz can beat Remco in a flat TT, unless Evenepoel messes something up in his preparation or gets sick.

The big question rather is how much margin of improvement does each have before the Giro, because with the speed they rode up La Porte on stage 5 of Catalunya suggests it can't be very much. In this case, Evenepoel certainly has the rouleur's advantage in the opening Giro TT.
 
I agree with everything, but I think if Primož will be in a really great form, he might give Remco trouble in the high mountains even if he will ahead in the GC (Remco has not yet show the level that would match Primož best, but it's certainly not impossible for him to have it) as accumulating the lead reserve is much more important over 3 than 1 week race.
I also believe Primož can equal or win even on flat TT if in really good form (which so far looks almost likely). (but that's one fans wishes vs anothers)
But the overal logic of significance of TT is indeed correct regarding what we saw this week and the question of whether Primož will have the incentive to be more agressive or not
And it just can't come soon enough to settle the debate :D
I quite agree regarding the mountain performances. We have not seen them battle each other while both are 100%. Neither Roglic in the Vuelta, nor Evenepoel after his crash in the Vuelta, were 100%. And i certainly am not confident that Evenepoel would outperform Roglic there over the course of 3 weeks, we will have to wait and see. However, i think even a 100% Roglic will not be able to beat Evenepoel in a flat TT. Evenepoel is more aerodynamic and has the power to back it up. He has beaten Ganna, Küng, Dennis etc in longer flat TT's. While it is not impossible for him to be beaten by Roglic, i suspect chances of that happening will be slim to none.
 
agreed.

only one caveat: he first found a worthy opponent in his own teammate Fignon - that made him switch teams and then recruit Lemond. 1984 was kind of the typical battle between two all arounders - one who climbed better and one who still could TT better. Same again with 1985 and 1986. Again, all you need is two equally talented all-arounders. one will likely be better at TT and the other climbing, for them to then fight it out (TDF 1975 and 1989 are prime examples).

Lemond often said that the riders knew who the real contenders were and they could be counted on less than the fingers of one hand.

I believe it has been an egregious error on the part of modern GT designers that they have superficially tried to get more riders in that very exclusive club. It has watered down the contests, elevating riders that should never have been in consideration while diluting what it should take to be crowned winner.
I think the races have been designed to try and keep the GC tight until the very end, for which less TTing has been the perceived way to achieve this outcome. But this model should by now be obsolete, because the "handfull" of real contenders can each TT well. I thus think in the Pogacar, Vingegaard, Evenepoel era the long TT will be making a comeback. We'll have to wait and see.
 

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