Vuelta 2017 stage 12 Motril - Antequera 160,1 km

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Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
markene2 said:
De la Cruz went out and said it woudnt be fair to attack/work since the leader has crashed

https://twitter.com/tjcope/status/903284160411951105
Froome has probably crashed/had mechanicals 5-6 times at crucial times this season.....
Yeah, it's beyond a joke now. The guy is a terrible bike handler, even to the extent he keeps messing up (electronic) gear shifts. A lack of skill such as that absolutely should be punished by the other riders.
 
Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
markene2 said:
De la Cruz went out and said it woudnt be fair to attack/work since the leader has crashed

https://twitter.com/tjcope/status/903284160411951105
Which is why you will never get everyone agreeing which means the chase is going to suffer.
This is always going to be a problem in a group with so many leaders and several domestiques. Although, quite why the likes of Nibali, Aru and Chaves would listen to a C-class GC rider like de la Cruz, I'm not sure.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Valv.Piti said:
markene2 said:
De la Cruz went out and said it woudnt be fair to attack/work since the leader has crashed

https://twitter.com/tjcope/status/903284160411951105
Froome has probably crashed/had mechanicals 5-6 times at crucial times this season.....
Step 1: lead from the start
Step 2: change bikes at all important sections
Step 3: profit?
What did Froome stand to gain today by deciding to wait for his team car when his team were in full control of the chase
 
Re: Re:

Cance > TheRest said:
wwabbit said:
Cance > TheRest said:
Actually the drivers in the Katusha car did everything in its might to avoid interfering with Froome's line. It braked to give Froome room to pass, when Froome tried to overtake it, coming into the corner.

I have no clue why some people blame the car. The misinformed should watch a replay of the episode, if that is what is needed to overrule their bias.
You need to watch the replay again, the Katusha stopped for Froome to overtake, then while Froome was starting to turn the corner, it started moving forward again.
Well, I don't think the car rolling with 3-4km/h mattered for Froome's line, to be honest. But we will have to wait and see what Froome says, if he explains it by nervousness over the car or he admits to simply sliding out. From the pictures, it appears to be the latter explanation, although it is ofcourse impossible to know what went through Froome's head at the moment. I would say though, that if he gets nervous over a car rolling slowly into a corner, when he's already ahead of it, then his nerves are not very good.
If you ride in front of a car and it starts moving forward, you are likely to be startled and take evasive action even if given more time to assess the situation you would on hindsight know that you would have easily cleared the path of the car before it gets to you. Unfortunately for Froome a hairpin corner isn't a good place to take evasive action. Really, the Katusha car should have remained in a complete stop.
 
Re: Re:

wwabbit said:
Cance > TheRest said:
wwabbit said:
Cance > TheRest said:
Actually the drivers in the Katusha car did everything in its might to avoid interfering with Froome's line. It braked to give Froome room to pass, when Froome tried to overtake it, coming into the corner.

I have no clue why some people blame the car. The misinformed should watch a replay of the episode, if that is what is needed to overrule their bias.
You need to watch the replay again, the Katusha stopped for Froome to overtake, then while Froome was starting to turn the corner, it started moving forward again.
Well, I don't think the car rolling with 3-4km/h mattered for Froome's line, to be honest. But we will have to wait and see what Froome says, if he explains it by nervousness over the car or he admits to simply sliding out. From the pictures, it appears to be the latter explanation, although it is ofcourse impossible to know what went through Froome's head at the moment. I would say though, that if he gets nervous over a car rolling slowly into a corner, when he's already ahead of it, then his nerves are not very good.
If you ride in front of a car and it starts moving forward, you are likely to be startled and take evasive action even if given more time to assess the situation you would on hindsight know that you would have easily cleared the path of the car before it gets to you. Unfortunately for Froome a hairpin corner isn't a good place to take evasive action. Really, the Katusha car should have remained in a complete stop.
https://youtu.be/6VNAhQfZVM8?t=22
At what point here did Froome take evasive action? He didn't deviate his line at all. And by the time he went down, he was already past the Katusha car.

It was just more terrible bike handling from Froome. In any event, if you get distracted by having a car being anywhere near you, although not impeding you at all, then perhaps don't overtake one immediately before a hairpin bend.
 
Its kinda obvious that the only 2 riders that can bother Froome are Nibali & Contador ...everyone else is either hanging on or riding for podium/top5

Today Nibali should have gone with Contador ......SKY are not beatable in MTF (at the moment unless Froome gets tired or has a mishap) but are vunlerbale everywhere else...this is where nibali has to go for it .... (Roche and Contador had a talk and decided to attack ...even though Roche did not have the legs to stay with Contador on the climb) ...but why did Contador and Nibali not talk ? or even if they didnt surely Nibali coudl see it as an opportunity when Contador attacks ?
 
Re:

HelloDolly said:
Its kinda obvious that the only 2 riders that can bother Froome are Nibali & Contador ...everyone else is either hanging on or riding for podium/top5

Today Nibali should have gone with Contador ......SKY are not beatable in MTF (at the moment unless Froome gets tired or has a mishap) but are vunlerbale everywhere else...this is where nibali has to go for it .... (Roche and Contador had a talk and decided to attack ...even though Roche did not have the legs to stay with Contador on the climb) ...but why did Contador and Nibali not talk ? or even if they didnt surely Nibali coudl see it as an opportunity when Contador attacks ?
Because Contador wasted a load of energy to gain 20 seconds. For him it was a worthy gamble, because he's so far back in the GC. For Nibali, it would have been a massive waste of energy - especially because, had Froome not crashed, Sky would probably have shut the move down in the final 10km. Nibali is playing the long game, anticipating that Froome will fade at some point in the final week - he's close enough to not need to make some reckless gamble on a stage like today.

And cliches like this are utterly redundant in the final week:

SKY are not beatable in MTF
How are team-mates going to help on the last 5km of Pandera, or Machucos, or Angliru? It will be every man for himself on those climbs - that is where Nibali will try to crack Froome.
 
Aug 26, 2014
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Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
wwabbit said:
Cance > TheRest said:
wwabbit said:
Cance > TheRest said:
Actually the drivers in the Katusha car did everything in its might to avoid interfering with Froome's line. It braked to give Froome room to pass, when Froome tried to overtake it, coming into the corner.

I have no clue why some people blame the car. The misinformed should watch a replay of the episode, if that is what is needed to overrule their bias.
You need to watch the replay again, the Katusha stopped for Froome to overtake, then while Froome was starting to turn the corner, it started moving forward again.
Well, I don't think the car rolling with 3-4km/h mattered for Froome's line, to be honest. But we will have to wait and see what Froome says, if he explains it by nervousness over the car or he admits to simply sliding out. From the pictures, it appears to be the latter explanation, although it is ofcourse impossible to know what went through Froome's head at the moment. I would say though, that if he gets nervous over a car rolling slowly into a corner, when he's already ahead of it, then his nerves are not very good.
If you ride in front of a car and it starts moving forward, you are likely to be startled and take evasive action even if given more time to assess the situation you would on hindsight know that you would have easily cleared the path of the car before it gets to you. Unfortunately for Froome a hairpin corner isn't a good place to take evasive action. Really, the Katusha car should have remained in a complete stop.
https://youtu.be/6VNAhQfZVM8?t=22
At what point here did Froome take evasive action? He didn't deviate his line at all. And by the time he went down, he was already past the Katusha car.

It was just more terrible bike handling from Froome. In any event, if you get distracted by having a car being anywhere near you, although not impeding you at all, then perhaps don't overtake one immediately before a hairpin bend.
Exactly. He was in front of the car, following a line through the corner. He lost his wheel and went down. It's ridiculous to blame the car or say 'it made him nervous'. He had already been down and probably had shedloads of adrenalin coursing through the veins. Folks are tired, dehydrated etc. He just made a mistake.
 
Feb 21, 2017
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He's already said himself he simply lost the front wheel both times due to slippery road conditions. Maybe the pointless debate can now end?
 
First one wasn't a mechanical either, he crashed 2 times apparently.

"I'm doing OK, thankfully. I'm just grateful they weren't more serious. It's never nice to crash, but in the end I had two teammates with me, they were fantastic - Mikel Nieve and Wout Poels - they helped me all the way to the finish and helped me to limit the losses to the Vincenzo Nibali group. I just slipped, I lost my front wheel in a corner. Same for the second one. Really dry, slippery corners and I just lost my front wheel."

"Of course I don't like to give away time, but I'm grateful it's 20 seconds and not one minute."
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
HelloDolly said:
Its kinda obvious that the only 2 riders that can bother Froome are Nibali & Contador ...everyone else is either hanging on or riding for podium/top5

Today Nibali should have gone with Contador ......SKY are not beatable in MTF (at the moment unless Froome gets tired or has a mishap) but are vunlerbale everywhere else...this is where nibali has to go for it .... (Roche and Contador had a talk and decided to attack ...even though Roche did not have the legs to stay with Contador on the climb) ...but why did Contador and Nibali not talk ? or even if they didnt surely Nibali coudl see it as an opportunity when Contador attacks ?
Because Contador wasted a load of energy to gain 20 seconds. For him it was a worthy gamble, because he's so far back in the GC. For Nibali, it would have been a massive waste of energy - especially because, had Froome not crashed, Sky would probably have shut the move down in the final 10km. Nibali is playing the long game, anticipating that Froome will fade at some point in the final week - he's close enough to not need to make some reckless gamble on a stage like today.

And cliches like this are utterly redundant in the final week:

SKY are not beatable in MTF
How are team-mates going to help on the last 5km of Pandera, or Machucos, or Angliru? It will be every man for himself on those climbs - that is where Nibali will try to crack Froome.
Assuming Froome doesn't fade or isn't damaged by his off today I can't see Nibali putting time into him on the Angliru. Since when has Nibali been better up really steep ramps than Froome ?
 
Jul 13, 2010
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When Contador/Roche went, who was the Sky man that almost made contact with him, only to realize he'd left the train behind.. Moments later he blew up spectacularly. Moscon?

Seemed a bit amateurish to me. :)
 
Re:

Climbing said:
First one wasn't a mechanical either, he crashed 2 times apparently.

"I'm doing OK, thankfully. I'm just grateful they weren't more serious. It's never nice to crash, but in the end I had two teammates with me, they were fantastic - Mikel Nieve and Wout Poels - they helped me all the way to the finish and helped me to limit the losses to the Vincenzo Nibali group. I just slipped, I lost my front wheel in a corner. Same for the second one. Really dry, slippery corners and I just lost my front wheel."

"Of course I don't like to give away time, but I'm grateful it's 20 seconds and not one minute."
So we can cancel two debates altogether. Not the Katusha cars fault that he crashed, and Nibali's group should have pushed on to gain time.
 
Re: Re:

bigcog said:
Assuming Froome doesn't fade or isn't damaged by his off today I can't see Nibali putting time into him on the Angliru. Since when has Nibali been better up really steep ramps than Froome ?
Well yeah, if Froome doesn't fade then he wins the race easily - because he's the strongest climber right now and will also take time in the TT. Nibali and the others will be banking that he will fade at some point, having come off the Tour de France, while they will get relatively stronger throughout the race. The point is more that if Froome does fade, then his team won't be able to help all that much on several climbs in the final week beause of the gradients. He will be on his own and a lot more vulnerable than he would be in a similar situation in the Tour.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
HelloDolly said:
Its kinda obvious that the only 2 riders that can bother Froome are Nibali & Contador ...everyone else is either hanging on or riding for podium/top5

Today Nibali should have gone with Contador ......SKY are not beatable in MTF (at the moment unless Froome gets tired or has a mishap) but are vunlerbale everywhere else...this is where nibali has to go for it .... (Roche and Contador had a talk and decided to attack ...even though Roche did not have the legs to stay with Contador on the climb) ...but why did Contador and Nibali not talk ? or even if they didnt surely Nibali coudl see it as an opportunity when Contador attacks ?
Because Contador wasted a load of energy to gain 20 seconds. For him it was a worthy gamble, because he's so far back in the GC. For Nibali, it would have been a massive waste of energy - especially because, had Froome not crashed, Sky would probably have shut the move down in the final 10km. Nibali is playing the long game, anticipating that Froome will fade at some point in the final week - he's close enough to not need to make some reckless gamble on a stage like today.

And cliches like this are utterly redundant in the final week:

SKY are not beatable in MTF
How are team-mates going to help on the last 5km of Pandera, or Machucos, or Angliru? It will be every man for himself on those climbs - that is where Nibali will try to crack Froome.

Well I dont think its a cliche to attack on a day like today because

1. You never know what can happen until you try
2. It puts pressure on your rivals ....if not physically at least mentally
3. Everyone is lamenting how predictable and regimented cycling is ...the fans need action and this is it...not all fans are about saving energy and calculating to the last day...
4. Cycling should be unpredicatable ... otherwsie the sport is doomed ...wining is not everything
 
Jun 14, 2017
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Re:

Carstenbf said:
When Contador/Roche went, who was the Sky man that almost made contact with him, only to realize he'd left the train behind.. Moments later he blew up spectacularly. Moscon?

Seemed a bit amateurish to me. :)
It was Rosa
 
Re:

hrotha said:
Even if Froome abandoned right now, that wouldn't mean Nibali was smart. Instead of taking time NOW, which he could easily have done, we're hoping an unforeseen and unpredictable consequence of Froome's crashes will allow him to maybe perhaps gain time at an unspecified later stage, if all goes well? Meh.

Nibali is being extremely disappointing this year, and not because he has worse legs than in previous seasons.
Nibali was disappointing today but I generally disagree. He was sneaking his way to a stage win, he was attacking on stage 10, he was the most aggressive rider yesterday and even on stage 6 to Sagunt he was attacking on the final descent trying to bridge to the Contador group instead of just trying to control the race. I'm really not disappointed, but he just generally has the problem this year that he doesn't have a good team. Long range attacks are very difficult if you can neither effectively decimate the peloton to complicate the chase nor have teammates in front who can help you in valleys.
 
Re:

GraftPunk said:
He's already said himself he simply lost the front wheel both times due to slippery road conditions. Maybe the pointless debate can now end?
He likely braked in the turn as the bike was leaning. I speak from experience that is a no-no. Brake before the turn otherwise you're hitting the railing if you're going too fast or your bike slides out from under you. Definitely don't use the front brake in a high speed turn. Of course in a moment of desperation we all might tend to forget these things in order to maintain control.
 
Jul 16, 2011
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Re:

PremierAndrew said:
The katusha car did block Froome's view a bit and alter his line slightly, but either way, he shouldnt have crashed and he only has himself to blame
This. It was Froome overtaking the car and not vice versa as some stated earlier.

It was a real twist in the tail of the stage. The attack from Contador was not unexpected, but the Froome crashes made the finish very nervous.

Maybe it looked like the Nibali group could have pushed harder, but it was a large group with conflicting aims riding against a small, unified group riding to save the lead.

Luckily for Froome, tomorrow is a relatively easy day. He will have used up a lot of energy to limit his losses. His injuries did not look serious, but he has shown a beloved patriot in the armour. How he is feeling and how he responds this weekend is important. He is still in pole position though.
 

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