Vuelta a España 2012

[More Strides than Rides]

You're right. For the record, I edited podium out of my post (before I even saw your post, but whatever). But I still stand by my point, a lot of guys got their first GT stage, or big exposure at the Vuelta.

Either way, even you'd agree that a lack of top-end strength and depth gives an opportunity to new riders. I think that's a good thing. We'll disagree on whether that credential is "GT" worthy

 

[The Hitch]

Besides, Vuelta is just small fish. Grand Tour in name only as far as I'm concerned.

Yes we know you dont like the Vuelta.

But it is a Grand Tour. It might be the weakest one but it is still a Grand Tour. From the 3 week format with mountain stages, to the caliber of riders it attracts to the the millions of fans around the world that watch it to the tourism it provides it has all the characteristics of one and is SIGNIFICANTLY more prestigious and important than the next biggest stage race.

Try telling those of us who took time out of our schedules to make the trip there to watch it, or the riders that kill themselves day in day out for the prize of a stage or jersey, that it isn't a grand tour.

Vuelta with Giro route= everyone skipping the Vuelta

Umm why? A few riders are there to warm up for the worlds but usually those riders dont feature much and if they do, its because theyve got good form and want to win something at the Vuelta too.

eg Schlecks who if we take seriously your portrayal of the race should be crushing the Vuelta even on pub crawl form, but instead linger in the back.

The riders that are contesting the stages and jerseys are there for the actual race.

 

[Descender]

Rumours of a second stage in Andorra and other rumours of a big surprise within Catalonia for the first sunday stage after Coll de la Gallina.

Here's my humble proposal, finishing on top of the Coll de Pal that Libertine Seguros mentioned, climbed for the last time in the last Setmana Catalana, in 2005 with Alberto Contador emerging victorious at the top. I'd start from Andorra la Vella and go through

Port d'Envalira

27.7kms at 5%

Coll de la Creueta

31kms at 4%

Coll de Pradell

15.7kms at 6.8%

Coll de Pal

19kms at 6.5%

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Pistolet - it depends on the Worlds route who contends the Vuelta/Worlds. In 2009 you had a Worlds route that suited the climber/hilly specialists, so they rode the Vuelta and padded out the upper GC with some big star names. In 2011 you had a pan-flat Worlds so much of the GC elite had packed up their season by then.

As to the saying "then you have less good riders winning a GT" then sure, we just had Cobo (we nearly had Isidro Nozal in 2004 for Christ's sake), but in recent memory we have had Damiano Cunego, Giro winner, and Óscar Pereiro, Tour winner. Weird circumstances, sure, but they're a bit unexpected and those results stand out like sore thumbs in their palmarès, no? That's before I point out that last year we nearly had David Arroyo, Giro winner (and of course at one point we nearly had Eddy Mazzoleni, Giro winner!). One blood bag and being the protected rider on his team so he didn't lose time in a split in week 1, and we could have had Bernhard Kohl, Tour winner!

 

[Angliru]

2008 was a pretty horrible route.
The best GT contenders of this generation broke through in either the Giro or the Tour. Contador, Schlecks, Evans, Basso, Ricco, etc

2008 podium:

Contador(already a star)
Leipheimer(already a star)
Sastre(already a star)

2009 podium

Valverde(big star already)Samuel Sanchez(already star)
Cadel Evans(already a star with a crappy palmares)

2010 podium

Nibali(already broke through)
Mozquera(ancient old, already did a few good Vuelta's, doped)
Peter Velits(what's he doing in third place?)

Valverde's breakthrough was making the podium in the 2003 or 2004 Vuelta. He was a rising Spanish star at the time with all of his success coming in Spain up to that point.

 

[airstream]

Huh, Leipheimer was already with good parmares and Evans was with a crappy one. Leipheimer did his first GT podium in the Vuelta, didn't he?

 

[The Hitch]

Valverde's breakthrough was making the podium in the 2003 or 2004 Vuelta. He was a rising Spanish star at the time with all of his success coming in Spain up to that point.

I wonder if Pisti realises that by pointing out that all the guys podiuming the Vuelta were already stars, hes showing that the Vuelta podiums are full of top stars fighting it out against eachother.

Which is what GTS should be like, no?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

2008 was a pretty horrible route.
The best GT contenders of this generation broke through in either the Giro or the Tour. Contador, Schlecks, Evans, Basso, Ricco, etc

You include Riccò? Seriously?

What about:
Alejandro Valverde (3rd, 2003 Vuelta)
Levi Leipheimer (3rd, 2001 Vuelta)
Samuel Sánchez (10th, 2005 Vuelta, 7th, 2006 Vuelta)
Igor Antón (stage win 2006 Vuelta, 8th 2007 Vuelta)
Denis Menchov (1st, 2005 Vuelta, unless you count 11th in the 2004 Tour, which would be fair enough)
Robert Gesink (7th, 2008 Vuelta)
Joaquím Rodríguez (KOM, 2005 Vuelta)

And not forgetting
Lance Armstrong (4th, 1998 Vuelta)

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Pistolet - it depends on the Worlds route who contends the Vuelta/Worlds. In 2009 you had a Worlds route that suited the climber/hilly specialists, so they rode the Vuelta and padded out the upper GC with some big star names. In 2011 you had a pan-flat Worlds so much of the GC elite had packed up their season by then.

As to the saying "then you have less good riders winning a GT" then sure, we just had Cobo

Cobo is maybe more physically talented than someone like Nibali, though.

 

[Angliru]

Huh, Leipheimer was already with good parmares and Evans was with a crappy one. Leipheimer did his first GT podium in the Vuelta, didn't he?

I believe you are correct sir! As Paul Sherwin would say, "a certain Mr. Lance Armstrong" had his first grand tour overall classification success at the Vuelta in 1998. I think El Pistolero is doing the Vuelta a disservice by attempting to minimize it's stature in the cycling world. I just don't get all the negativity he's throwing the Vuelta's way. Me personally, I'm happy for any cycling event on the calender that involves battles in the mountains over the course of a day, a week or 3 weeks. The Vuelta serves a valuable purpose as was stated earlier in acting as a proving ground for young talent, a 2nd or even last chance for riders that haven't had the season that they'd wanted up to that point and prep for the world's.

Listening to El Pistolero's Vuelta description, one would think that riders are cruising around simply enjoying the vistas, sipping sangria out of their bottles and bar-hopping at night between stages (Oops, with the exception of Andy and Stuey!).

 

[airstream]

I don't really get how a real cycling fan may not like any mountain stages even if sometimes they're not so exciting in the Vuelta. Presumably, after the TdF some feel a slight apathy to cycling and the Vuelta doesn't look so cool against this background. It is the only thing with what I can explain a partial aversion to this race.

 

[The Hitch]

Listening to El Pistolero's Vuelta description, one would think that riders are cruising around simply enjoying the vistas, sipping sangria out of their bottles and bar-hopping at night between stages (Oops, with the exception of Andy and Stuey!).

Ha.

That was a very well delivered line there. Not just the joke at the end but the entire sentence is very thorough.

Chapeau.

 

[Angliru]

I wonder if Pisti realises that by pointing out that all the guys podiuming the Vuelta were already stars, hes showing that the Vuelta podiums are full of top stars fighting it out against eachother.

Which is what GTS should be like, no?

Exactly!10 characters

 

[El Pistolero]

I wonder if Pisti realises that by pointing out that all the guys podiuming the Vuelta were already stars, hes showing that the Vuelta podiums are full of top stars fighting it out against eachother.

Which is what GTS should be like, no?

In 2008 Contador only entered the Vuelta because the Tour didn't want to have him. Same goes for Levi Leipheimer. Sastre already won the Tour that year.

In 2009 Valvere only rode the Vuelta because the Giro and Tour didn't want to have him. Cadel Evans already did the Tour that year and only did the Vuelta to get over a bad hangover(the Tour) and prepare for the Worlds. Don't know about Samu, probably just wanted to ride the Vuelta. And well, the World Championship that year boosted the field of the Vuelta considerably(so the Worlds doesn't always have a negative impact on the Vuelta as some seem to think over here.)

In 2010 we have Nibbles winning. Fair enough, he's a star, a small one. Mosquera got second who isn't a star at all. Peter Velits is not a star.

In 2011 you have Cobo winning: not a star. Froome second: what the hell? Wiggins third: he only did the Vuelta because he crashed out of the Tour and he was not even in top shape after that.

So if you mean the Vuelta is the thing people do when they got no other choice or to prepare for the WC then you're very right

 

[El Pistolero]

I believe you are correct sir! As Paul Sherwin would say, "a certain Mr. Lance Armstrong" had his first grand tour overall classification success at the Vuelta in 1998. I think El Pistolero is doing the Vuelta a disservice by attempting to minimize it's stature in the cycling world. I just don't get all the negativity he's throwing the Vuelta's way. Me personally, I'm happy for any cycling event on the calender that involves battles in the mountains over the course of a day, a week or 3 weeks. The Vuelta serves a valuable purpose as was stated earlier in acting as a proving ground for young talent, a 2nd or even last chance for riders that haven't had the season that they'd wanted up to that point and prep for the world's.

Listening to El Pistolero's Vuelta description, one would think that riders are cruising around simply enjoying the vistas, sipping sangria out of their bottles and bar-hopping at night between stages (Oops, with the exception of Andy and Stuey!).

Leipheimer was third in the Tour of 2007. But Leipheimer still has a crappy palmares while Cadel Evans has a great one by now. That was just a little joke.

 

[Angliru]

I don't really get how a real cycling fan may not like any mountain stages even if sometimes they're not so exciting in the Vuelta. Presumably, after the TdF some feel a slight apathy to cycling and the Vuelta doesn't look so cool against this background. It is the only thing with what I can explain a partial aversion to this race.

....and they aren't always exciting in the Tour or the Giro either. Considering the numerous complaints we often hear in this forum about how boring the Tour is compared to the Giro, or how boring the Giro was because of Contador's dominance, how Roubaix and RVV were boring because of the so-called negative racing tactics and the fact the big names didn't win, I wonder did anyone derive any entertainment/enjoyment at all out of this season's racing?

I personally haven't always had convenient access to viewing many of the big events in cycling other than the Tour, some of the classics and occasionally the Giro, that is unless I paid for the video, if it was available. I'm just happy now to finally be able to view them all in some way, shape or form. Maybe after a few more years of constant access I may become more critical but I don't think I spend enough time focused on the events to really have a critical view of how the races transpired. I may be disappointed that who I was rooting for didn't win or have a good race but never the less I still enjoy the action and marvel at the performances.

 

[El Pistolero]

Pistolet - it depends on the Worlds route who contends the Vuelta/Worlds. In 2009 you had a Worlds route that suited the climber/hilly specialists, so they rode the Vuelta and padded out the upper GC with some big star names. In 2011 you had a pan-flat Worlds so much of the GC elite had packed up their season by then.

As to the saying "then you have less good riders winning a GT" then sure, we just had Cobo (we nearly had Isidro Nozal in 2004 for Christ's sake), but in recent memory we have had Damiano Cunego, Giro winner, and Óscar Pereiro, Tour winner. Weird circumstances, sure, but they're a bit unexpected and those results stand out like sore thumbs in their palmarès, no? That's before I point out that last year we nearly had David Arroyo, Giro winner (and of course at one point we nearly had Eddy Mazzoleni, Giro winner!). One blood bag and being the protected rider on his team so he didn't lose time in a split in week 1, and we could have had Bernhard Kohl, Tour winner!

Cobo, Nibali and Froome didn't do good at the Vuelta because of breakaways like Pereiro though. And yeah, the Tour was in a bit of a crisis in 2006 due to doping cases(Am I the only one who finds it a coincidence that Armstrong decided to stop right before the Fuentes doping affair?) and what not. But the Vuelta is in a constant crisis it seems. Sure they have a nice winner in 2008 and 2009. But they only won because they weren't allowed to race the Tour de France.

And Damiano Cunego only won the Giro because of the crappy route. Put a similar route next year and he'll be a favorite again. But the Giro doesn't have these flat routes anymore: now it's all about mountains. So someone like Cunego won't ever win the Giro again.

You are right that the WC in 2009 boosted the Vuelta field though.

 

[Descender]

Why is it that every single thread related to the Vuelta in this forum becomes a debate about the Vuelta itself as a race?

 

[roundabout]

Second stage in Andorra? A mountain time trial?

 

[The Hitch]

In 2008 Contador only entered the Vuelta because the Tour didn't want to have him. Same goes for Levi Leipheimer. Sastre already won the Tour that year.

In 2009 Valvere only rode the Vuelta because the Giro and Tour didn't want to have him. Cadel Evans already did the Tour that year and only did the Vuelta to get over a bad hangover(the Tour) and prepare for the Worlds. Don't know about Samu, probably just wanted to ride the Vuelta.

In 2010 we have Nibbles winning. Fair enough, he's a star, a small one. Mosquera got second who isn't a star at all. Peter Velits is not a star.

In 2011 you have Cobo winning: not a star. Froome second: what the hell? Wiggins third: he only did the Vuelta because he crashed out of the Tour and he was not even in top shape after that. And well, the World Championship that year boosted the field of the Vuelta considerably(so the Worlds doesn't always have a negative impact on the Vuelta as some seem to think over here.)

So if you mean the Vuelta is the thing people do when they got no other choice or to prepare for the WC then you're very right

It doesnt really matter why they do the Vuelta.

What matters is that they do it and they have duels in the mountains and we get exciting racing.

Am I supposed to in the middle of my enjoyment of watching top riders go up the mountain, say to myself

"Oh, hang on a second, hes only here because he wasnt invited to the Tour/ crashed in the Tour/ Tour didnt suit him/ hes Spanish/ his girlfriend asked him to/ he genuinly wants to win the Vuelta.

Oh ok, I wont enjoy it then".

Why is it that every single thread related to the Vuelta in this forum becomes a debate about the Vuelta itself as a race?

Because El Pistolero is here.

 

[El Pistolero]

It doesnt really matter why they do the Vuelta.

What matters is that they do it and they have duels in the mountains and we get exciting racing.

Am I supposed to in the middle of my enjoyment of watching a duel, say to myself

"Oh, hang on a second, hes only here because he wasnt invited to the Tour.

Oh ok, I wont enjoy it then".



Because El Pistolero is here.

That hardly ever happens in recent years at the Vuelta. Which is the main reason I don't rate the Vuelta too much with its stupid flat stages that end on a MTF. And of course it doesn't matter why they are there, but I hope you agree with me that it's unhealthy for a Grand Tour to rely on such circumstances to attract big cyclists. Because it ain't going to happen every year... And I was making an argument that the WC doesn't always have a negative impact on the Vuelta as so many people here claim.

No offence, but you whine about the Giro a lot in threads like ToC and how the Giro >>> Tour in Tour/Giro threads. I do the same, in Vuelta threads because there's such a big gap between the Vuelta and the other GTs. Why would I say I love the Vuelta when I don't? Don't get me started about the crappy camera quality...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

In 2008 Contador only entered the Vuelta because the Tour didn't want to have him. Same goes for Levi Leipheimer. Sastre already won the Tour that year.

In 2009 Valvere only rode the Vuelta because the Giro and Tour didn't want to have him. Cadel Evans already did the Tour that year and only did the Vuelta to get over a bad hangover(the Tour) and prepare for the Worlds. Don't know about Samu, probably just wanted to ride the Vuelta.

In 2010 we have Nibbles winning. Fair enough, he's a star, a small one. Mosquera got second who isn't a star at all. Peter Velits is not a star.

In 2011 you have Cobo winning: not a star. Froome second: what the hell? Wiggins third: he only did the Vuelta because he crashed out of the Tour and he was not even in top shape after that.

So if you mean the Vuelta is the thing people do when they got no other choice then you're very right

Don't pretend that Sastre in '08 or Valverde in '09 wouldn't have done the Vuelta regardless. Don't pretend that Mosquera's not a star when he'd been top 5 twice already. The wildcard teams live all year for that one race. Unless you're going to claim that Scarponi wasn't a star when he featured in the GC in the 2010 Giro? What about Garzelli? I mean yea, he was a star once upon a time, but now...

Samu openly and clearly targeted the Vuelta in 2009 (Astarloza was the GC man for the Tour, and Antón lost most of his off-season after his horror crash in the '08 Vuelta so wasn't considered ready for a repeat of his leadership role). You could argue that he would probably have won if he hadn't been caught up in the Liège pile-up. Although you could equally say, well, Valverde also was in that, of course. But no Liège pile-up, and Samu and Mosquera probably don't get dropped so far on Xorret del Catí. Though Samu was also dropped on Sierra Nevada (he's the justification for not waiting for Evans - why would they want to let Samu back on?), he dropped Evans from the chasing group further up the climb.

The Vuelta has become very much a race for the following:
- riders attempting to do the Giro and Vuelta (Basso '09, Nibali '10, Antón '11, Rodríguez '11) or Tour and Vuelta (Sastre '08, Valverde '08, Menchov '07, Rodríguez '10)
- riders who had a disappointing time at the Tour or could not attend (Evans '09, Valverde '09, Contador '08, Menchov '11, Wiggins '11)
- Spanish riders who focus on it (dwindling in number as the number of Spanish ProConti teams falls)(Sánchez '09, Antón '10, Rodríguez '11)
- young riders who've supported team leaders being given a free hand to see what they can do leading a team (Gesink '08, '09, Antón '08)

The Vuelta is the runt of the GT litter, sure. But it's a GT nonetheless. There are plenty of people who use the Giro as a tuneup for the Tour and small wildcard teams leaving their fingerprints all over the race there too.

Do not let the lack of star names at the top of the Vuelta GC fool you. In 2010 in that top 10 alongside the surprises like Roche you had proven GC men or at least well-known talents like Rodríguez (who had had a very long season), Sastre (3xGTs), Kreuziger (who was domestiquing for Nibali), Fränk Schleck (who had been injured at the Tour) and Xavi Tondó (who had attempted the Giro-Vuelta), and in 2011 you similarly had Nibali (attempting Giro-Vuelta), Menchov (who would probably have at least been on the podium if he hadn't made a mistake in week 1), Antón (attempting the Giro-Vuelta and missing the mark completely) and Rodríguez (attempting the Giro-Vuelta and hitting form too early). Include those guys in your GC mix and all of a sudden the Vuelta doesn't look as weak.

Especially when we consider some of the guys that made the Tour de France top 10 this year.

 

[El Pistolero]

Don't pretend that Sastre in '08 or Valverde in '09 wouldn't have done the Vuelta regardless. Don't pretend that Mosquera's not a star when he'd been top 5 twice already. The wildcard teams live all year for that one race. Unless you're going to claim that Scarponi wasn't a star when he featured in the GC in the 2010 Giro? What about Garzelli? I mean yea, he was a star once upon a time, but now...

What do you mean? Sastre did the Vuelta inspite of already having done the Tour. So if he didn't do the Tour that year he would have no doubt done the Vuelta. I'm just saying his form wasn't as good in the Vuelta as in the Tour. As for Valverde, I don't know about that one, but he would have certainly done the Tour in 2009 if he was allowed to. And thus his shape at the Vuelta would have been less.

And no, I don't think of Mosquera as a star... Only broke through at the Vuelta at old age and only ever impressed people there. And Scarponi was definitely not a GT star in the 2010 Giro, but he confirmed him self this year to being one. Is it weird that he can climb better after his doping ban and being older? Yes... I don't know how he pulled that off.

Doesn't it say enough that Contador rather did the Giro-Tour than the Tour-Vuelta this year? Don't say that he only did it because of his doping case. It was already confirmed he would ride the Giro before the Clen thing came out.

And as for the rest of your post: I actually agree with all of that. Which is why I don't rate the Vuelta so much. Is it still a Grand Tour? Yeah, duh. Just a big gap between the other two...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That hardly ever happens in recent years at the Vuelta. Which is the main reason I don't rate the Vuelta too much with its stupid flat stages that end on a MTF. And of course it doesn't matter why they are there, but I hope you agree with me that it's unhealthy for a Grand Tour to rely on such circumstances to attract big cyclists. Because it ain't going to happen every year... And I was making an argument that the WC doesn't always have a negative impact on the Vuelta as so many people here claim.

No offence, but you whine about the Giro a lot in threads like ToC and how the Giro >>> Tour in Tour/Giro threads. I do the same, in Vuelta threads because there's such a big gap between the Vuelta and the other GTs. Why would I say I love the Vuelta when I don't? Don't get me started about the crappy camera quality...

OK, this year was a bit of a letdown given the high pace of the diesels and the disappointing performances of the goats. But Peña Cabarga was great. And this year's Tour may have served us utter garbage in terms of the GC battle for two weeks, but the final week was great. Accepted.

But Luz Ardiden and Plateau de Beille were no better than any of the Vuelta mountaintops, and the Giro this year was a procession. So let's try another year.

OK, 2010 it is. The Giro had a topsy turvy GC which created some amazing racing the Vuelta would find it hard to compete with. The Tour had one really good mountain stage (Col de la Madeleine), but the rest of the time it was all track stands and bromance. The Tourmalet sure didn't compete with Bola del Mundo for me, Cotobello was a pretty good finish too, and Peña Cabarga, but Covadonga was a letdown. Pal was mystifyingly good because that's a stage that had every right to suck.

2009 then, and that much-derided, much-mocked Vuelta where the GC guys just caved in in week 3 and let Caisse let the break go over and over. And yet, with Valverde's comeback fight on La Pandera, the heroics of Xorret del Catí and the drama of Sierra Nevada, there was still enough to compete with the dreadful Tour route, where Contador waltzed away from a GC mix that acted like he wasn't there on Arcalis, then on Verbier we got a bit of action, then we got a great stage to Le Grand Bornand.

The biggest problem with the Vuelta for me is:
- too many one-climb stages designed for 'youtube cycling', where the MTF is an end unto itself rather than a means to an end; the problem is that the field of sprinters and classics men is dependent on the Worlds course so in a flattish year they don't want to make it too hard and dissuade them from coming, but they still want to create GC gaps, so they go for the easy way out
- if something works, they don't think "how can I apply this elsewhere in my route", they think "let's do that again". Immediately. Hence Xorret del Catí 2009-10, Peña Cabarga and Valdepeñas de Jaén 2010-11... probably the Basque Country 2011-12 (who wants to bet on the Alto El Vivero being used again? For my money it'd be better to climb it from Lezama and finish in Galdakao, but they'll probably do Galdakao-El Vivero-Bilbao again).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What do you mean? Sastre did the Vuelta inspite of already having done the Tour. So if he didn't do the Tour that year he would have no doubt done the Vuelta. I'm just saying his form wasn't as good in the Vuelta as in the Tour. As for Valverde, I don't know about that one, but he would have certainly done the Tour in 2009 if he was allowed to. And thus his shape at the Vuelta would have been less.

And no, I don't think of Mosquera as a star... Only broke through at the Vuelta at old age and only ever impressed people there. And Scarponi was definitely not a GT star in the 2010 Giro, but he confirmed him self this year to being one. Is it weird that he can climb better after his doping ban and being older? Yes... I don't know how he pulled that off.

Doesn't it say enough that Contador rather did the Giro-Tour than the Tour-Vuelta this year? Don't say that he only did it because of his doping case. It was already confirmed he would ride the Giro before the Clen thing came out.

And as for the rest of your post: I actually agree with all of that. Which is why I don't rate the Vuelta so much. Is it still a Grand Tour? Yeah, duh. Just a big gap between the other two...

Giro-Tour is a bigger achievement. Part of that is the prestige of the event, part of that is the higher average speed of the Tour péloton; therefore it's harder to be at sub-optimal form in the Tour péloton after peaking at the Giro, than it would be to be at peak form for the Tour at high speed, and still be able to be competitive at the Vuelta with its lower average speed (especially if you're used to racing in the heat). Hence, for example, Sastre 4th & 2nd in 2007, 1st & 3rd in 2008; Valverde 6th & 5th in 2008; Evans 2nd & 4th in 2007; Contador managed 1st & 5th in the Giro-Tour this year of course, probably the closest to Sastre's two podiums in '08, but he's a better cyclist than Sastre.