Vuelta a España - Stage 17 - Peñafiel individual time trial, 46 km

[ferryman]

I know that. But I just hate it when a GT get's won by a lesser rider or when a lesser field is there.
Just like the Giro '04 with Cunego winning and McGee in top 7 and **** like that
Or the Tour when Pereiro won.. bleh

I mean, a guy like Cadel Evans is for sure better than Nibali or Pereiro, yet he'll probably never have a GT on his palmares.

Agreed, I think just about. We will be onside then for Millar's lost Vuelta

 

[Dedelou]

I agreed with that, but is also a duty for the Climbers to "improve" in the TT discipline, so they can maintain all the gains from the mountains intact until they meet the race against the clock. If you go back to history, there are many great Climbers that have stepped off the podium simply because of the lack of TT skills, and we might as well get a situation similar with Purito & Eze-which I would hate to happen if Schleck gets the best of them in wednesday's showdown.

in my opinion nobody should be able to win a GT because they are only good on what aspect of cycling. The GT are won on general classification and to stay on top one had to be a factor a great deal of the time

 

[Dedelou]

One TT does the trick. You don't need 3 über long time trials...

Consider this: if the TT are hard, the climbers will have to attack more in the mountains and you will not have those mountain stage finishes where 10 or so riders are battling for a few seconds.

 

[insideout leadout]

You know, something just hit me.

Nibali reminds me of Savoldelli. A limited GC rider, who is not really the best at anything, except downhilling (you can't disagree with Nibali's downhill skills).

Savoldelli won 2 giro's thanks to his skills and weaker fields and a tad of luck (remember how Lotto's Van Huffel and Ardila dragged him up the climb?).
Nibali seems to be winning this Vuelta in the same fashion

Now I know why I don't like Nibali. Reminds me of Savoldelli too much

I think it's the other way around. IMO a limited GC rider is limited by his weakest ability. Even if Nibali is average as a climber and a TTer none of these abilities are bringing him down much in the GC. Whereas pure climbers like Mosquerra and J-Rod could drop like stones due to less than average TTs. I would think of them as limited GC riders.

I think consistency is the key over three weeks and will not think less of Nibali if he wins the Vuelta just because his strength is his consistency just like it was for Savoldelli. The climbers are compensated by bonus seconds so the TT could have had even less importance if they wanted it themselfs. Especially this Vuelta with so many uphill finishes.

 

[hrotha]

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. Nibali has attacked in this Vuelta too, it's not like Purito and Mosquera have raced like u23 Colombian climbers either, and time-trialing is part of cycling too. If Purito and Mosquera can climb so much better than Nibali and they still don't win this, it won't be because Nibali doesn't deserve it.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. Nibali has attacked in this Vuelta too, it's not like Purito and Mosquera have raced like u23 Colombian climbers either, and time-trialing is part of cycling too. If Purito and Mosquera can climb so much better than Nibali and they still don't win this, it won't be because Nibali doesn't deserve it.

Yes, and it's not like this Vuelta is better suited to Nibali than Purito and Mosquera with only one ITT and all mountain stages finishing uphill. Where he got the idea that Nibali will win thanks to his descending skills I'll never know.

In fact, it's pretty much tailor made for J-Rod.

 

[hrotha]

Okay, I think I've just become a Sastre hater after reading this:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sastre-takes-setbacks-in-his-stride

"As I said at the beginning of this Vuelta and throughout all the month of August, this was not the team that I would have liked and it isn't a balanced team in any sense. In fact, to date, three riders have already gone home and as the days goes by my opinion is simply reaffirmed," said Sastre.

"I asked for riders who knew that they would be in the Vuelta a España until the end, not just for a part of it. Without being backed by the team that I really wanted, playing a tactical battle is really complicated for a number of reasons."

Seriously? You slam Deignan and Denifl, who apparently had to quit due to an illness (definitely in the case of Denifl, not sure about Deignan), and you complain about not having the cards to do a tactical race... all of that while you didn't do anything to help Tondo when his position was much better than yours, but rather attacked at a time when riding tempo benefitted your team mate the most? Don't you think you could try some interesting tactics if you hadn't contributed to Tondo's GC worsening? I thought Cervélo's team looked great in Seville. I honestly have no idea who else you'd have wanted for support, looks to me like the team's best GT riders were there. Cuesta, Florencio, Deignan, Tondo, Pujol... You wanted Gustov? Already supported you at the Giro and Tour. You wanted Klier, Hammond or some other rider for the flat? I doubt it. Sounds to me like you decided to be petty about Hushovd having goals that differ from yours.

Damn, this reads like I actually expect Sastre to read this.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

It is a strange complaint. You are right that there isn't a set of obviously better riders Cervelo could have sent. And you are also right that it's hard to have too much sympathy for him complaining about inadequate support from his team when he managed to drop a teammate in a better GC position in an attack.

I'm sure his comments will have done wonders for team morale.

 

[meandmygitane]

Okay, I think I've just become a Sastre hater after reading this:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sastre-takes-setbacks-in-his-stride

Seriously? You slam Deignan and Denifl, who apparently had to quit due to an illness (definitely in the case of Denifl, not sure about Deignan), and you complain about not having the cards to do a tactical race... all of that while you didn't do anything to help Tondo when his position was much better than yours, but rather attacked at a time when riding tempo benefitted your team mate the most? Don't you think you could try some interesting tactics if you hadn't contributed to Tondo's GC worsening? I thought Cervélo's team looked great in Seville. I honestly have no idea who else you'd have wanted for support, looks to me like the team's best GT riders were there. Cuesta, Florencio, Deignan, Tondo, Pujol... You wanted Gustov? Already supported you at the Giro and Tour. You wanted Klier, Hammond or some other rider for the flat? I doubt it. Sounds to me like you decided to be petty about Hushovd having goals that differ from yours.

Damn, this reads like I actually expect Sastre to read this.

Sour grapes in the triangle drama of Hushovd, Sastre and Cervelo, nothing new about that.

I think it was Hushovd and the two-pronged approach of Cervelo that remark was meant for. And being forced to ride too many GTs and thusly failing at "everything".

I don't think you can hate Sastre in this. You'll have to hate Sastre, Hushovd and Cervelo at the same time. But you are an outspoken Hushovd fan right?

It will be good when they all part their ways and Hushovd can ride classics and Sastre (hopefully) concentrate on one GT per year, they will all benefit from that.

 

[theswordsman]

It's Sastre's third grand tour of the year. The team probably wouldn't have been invited if he hadn't agreed to race. To make it worth the effort and give him a chance, he begged in the press ahead of the race for the team to send Spanish riders who would care about the race. He didn't get the guys he wanted - I'm pretty sure we would have heard about that from any GC prospect, especially one who is on his way out (except Frank Schleck and the guys from his extended bachelor party).

It just makes me have more respect for the guys in a break who give up their own chances to drop back and help the team leader, or guys like Kreuziger who go above and beyond the call even though they have a fat new contract elsewhere.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I agree that Nibali fully deserves to win, if in fact he does. He attacked when he was capable, and at this point he is just shy of the lead, without any major descents or ITT taken place.

Give the guys the props he deserves.

---

as for sastre, since winning the tour (I was a fan of him then) I have come to like him less and less.

 

[jaylew]

I think it's the other way around. IMO a limited GC rider is limited by his weakest ability. Even if Nibali is average as a climber and a TTer none of these abilities are bringing him down much in the GC. Whereas pure climbers like Mosquerra and J-Rod could drop like stones due to less than average TTs. I would think of them as limited GC riders.

exactly.

I know that. But I just hate it when a GT get's won by a lesser rider or when a lesser field is there.
Just like the Giro '04 with Cunego winning and McGee in top 7 and **** like that
Or the Tour when Pereiro won.. bleh

I mean, a guy like Cadel Evans is for sure better than Nibali or Pereiro, yet he'll probably never have a GT on his palmares.

I agree with you to a certain extent but I would be closer to feeling that way if Mosquera won, not Nibali.


I wanted Anton to win the Vuelta, but even without his crash there's no way to know what would have happened. It certainly wasn't in the bag for him in any way. If Nibali does wind up winning he'll be a deserving champion and it would certainly follow his GT trajectory.

 

[maltiv]

It's Sastre's third grand tour of the year. The team probably wouldn't have been invited if he hadn't agreed to race. To make it worth the effort and give him a chance, he begged in the press ahead of the race for the team to send Spanish riders who would care about the race. He didn't get the guys he wanted - I'm pretty sure we would have heard about that from any GC prospect, especially one who is on his way out (except Frank Schleck and the guys from his extended bachelor party).

It seems to me that he got all of the very best climbers on Cervelo...who else would he want there to assist him?

 

[Sasquatch]

I've updated my top 10.

1. Fabian Cancellara
2. Gustav Larsson
3. David Millar
4. Dave Zabriskie
5. Tom Danielson
6. Gustavo Cesar-Veloso
7. Luis Leon Sanchez
8. Marzio Bruseghin
9. Tejay Van Garderen
10. Vladimir Gussev

 

[auscyclefan94]

Cuddles lost to Nibali in the Giro so obviously there's not much difference in ability between the two at this point in their careers

Erm...no!

Rodriguez was bad in the Tour time trial because of the wind. Pure and simple. Everyone struggled with the wind.

You can't compare his TDF performance to what he'll do here unless it's windy.

He is not a good time trialist. He is terrible. You don't lose that amount of time because of just wind. I'd put my money on Rodriguez losing two minutes to Nibali in the tt. nibali still needs to have a good one to secure the win and give himself a big enough buffer.

 

[whittashau]

Erm...no!
.

Cuddles : 2 GT podiums in 8 years
Nibali: 2(more than likely) GT podiums within the same year.

If Nibali isnt close to being a better rider than Cadel then he will in all likelihood be so sometime in the not too distant future.

 

[Climbing]

Cuddles : 2 GT podiums in 8 years
Nibali: 2(more than likely) GT podiums within the same year.

If Nibali isnt close to being a better rider than Cadel then he will in all likelihood be so sometime in the not too distant future.

And he is still very young... alot of margin for improvements.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Nibali reminds me of Savoldelli. A limited GC rider, who is not really the best at anything, except downhilling (you can't disagree with Nibali's downhill skills).

I mean, a guy like Cadel Evans is for sure better than Nibali or Pereiro, yet he'll probably never have a GT on his palmares.

Anybody else see the contradiction, here.
I guess Nibs won't be getting a Christmas card from DT anytime, soon.

Oh and btw: Newsflash: Robert Gesink is not really the best at anything, either.

 

[Jan the Man]

1. Fabian Cancellara
2. Gustav Larsson
3. David Millar
4. Gustavo Cesar-Veloso
5. Tom Danielson
6. Denis Menchov
7. Vladimir Gusev
8. Andrey Kashechkin
9. Ruben Plaza
10. Vladimir Karpets

 

[whittashau]

And he is still very young... alot of margin for improvements.

While Nibali also out performed Cuddles at the last two GTs they were both at. I really don't see how Cuddles is a vastly superior rider to Nibali unless we're talking about classics.

 

[python]

i agree that karpets should be in top 10 but im surprised noone mentioned bruseghin he does well or used to do well on flat courses.

 

[theyoungest]

Anybody else see the contradiction, here.
I guess Nibs won't be getting a Christmas card from DT anytime, soon.

Oh and btw: Newsflash: Robert Gesink is not really the best at anything, either.

Well, Evans is both a better climber and a better TT-ist than Nibali, so I can see Dekker T's point. But at least Nibali seems to have the ability to avoid neutral wheel changes, unwilling teammates, pesky young Dutchmen stealing his bonus seconds, people standing on his dog, and whatever it is that has prevented Evans from ever winning a GT. Same goes for Gesink, sort of. He'd have been a lot closer to his first GT win last year if he managed to STAY ON HIS BIKE FOR CHRISSAKES!

Nibali has mastered "making your own luck" to perfection.

 

[Jan the Man]

Well, Evans is both a better climber and a better TT-ist than Nibali.

Hmmm I am not sure that you can say Evans is a better climber than Nibali ... i.e. The Giro was a GT that Evans was targetting. Nibali although went for the GT was not expecting to ride until a week or so before and still outclimbed Evans.

Maybe peak Evans is a different story, but Evans of the last two years, I don't see him as being a better climber. Evans is turning out to be more a person for the one day races imo. I think he can maybe win Liege in the next two years. However I think his chance of winning a GT is running out and fast.

 

[Climbing]

Anyway it's not over yet!
Don't talk like Nibali already won.
Even if he put a solid tt and gain good time, there is still Bola awaiting for him, and it will be hell.
Indeed he has a good shot at winning the overall and by no means wheelsucking others... he attacked many times (even too much I suppose).

 

[Sasquatch]

i agree that karpets should be in top 10 but im surprised noone mentioned bruseghin he does well or used to do well on flat courses.

I mentioned Bruseghin. Podium outsider.