Vuelta a España - Stage 17 - Peñafiel individual time trial, 46 km

[Scirea]

I mentioned Bruseghin. Podium outsider.

If he can hold his proper TT position for more than 40km...

 

[theyoungest]

Well, Evans is both a better climber and a better TT-ist than Nibali.

Hmmm I am not sure that you can say Evans is a better climber than Nibali ... i.e. The Giro was a GT that Evans was targetting. Nibali although went for the GT was not expecting to ride until a week or so before and still outclimbed Evans.

Maybe peak Evans is a different story, but Evans of the last two years, I don't see him as being a better climber. Evans is turning out to be more a person for the one day races imo. I think he can maybe win Liege in the next two years. However I think his chance of winning a GT is running out and fast.

There was something wrong with Evans in the Giro as well, can't remember what it was, I'm sure auscyclefan can tell us (illness? injury?). I'd still rate an Evans on top form above Nibali. BTW, he still kicked Nibali's a$$ on the Zoncolan.

 

[Jan the Man]

It's all about opinions...I'd take Nibali of Cuddles in a GT at the moment.

 

[Climbing]

It's all about opinions...I'd take Nibali of Cuddles in a GT at the moment.

Many here are forgetting that Nibali is still 25 and Evans is already 33.
That must accounts for something too.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Well, Evans is both a better climber and a better TT-ist than Nibali.
There was something wrong with Evans in the Giro as well, can't remember what it was, I'm sure auscyclefan can tell us (illness? injury?). I'd still rate an Evans on top form above Nibali. BTW, he still kicked Nibali's a$$ on the Zoncolan.

The point Dekker T was trying to make was that Nibali wasn't the best at anything.
He then uses Cadel as example of a rider who is better than Nibali, to substantiate his claim.
My response was meant to highlight that to justify the former comment on Nibali, he used a prime example of another rider who isn't the best at anything.

As to which rider is the better, that's another debate entirely.

 

[theyoungest]

The point Dekker T was trying to make was that Nibali wasn't the best at anything.
He then uses Cadel as example of a rider who is better than Nibali, to substantiate his claim.
My response was meant to highlight that to justify the former comment on Nibali, he used a prime example of another rider who isn't the best at anything.

As to which rider is the better, that's another debate entirely.

I see what you mean, but I don't necessarily agree, as Evans has an exceptionally good TT to fall back on (among GC riders, that is).

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Well I daresay Gesink or Vandenbroeck, if here in peak form, would handly kick Nibali's *** (especially in in the uphill stages)

 

[El Pistolero]

Well I daresay Gesink or Vandenbroeck, if here in peak form, would handly kick Nibali's *** (especially in in the uphill stages)

I think VdB could've won this Vuelta after Anton dropping out. Perhaps even without it, but I don't know how Anton time trials.

The good thing about VdB is, he needs less team support then some other riders to be up there in the mountain stages.

 

[insideout leadout]

Well, Evans is both a better climber and a better TT-ist than Nibali, so I can see Dekker T's point. But at least Nibali seems to have the ability to avoid neutral wheel changes, unwilling teammates, pesky young Dutchmen stealing his bonus seconds, people standing on his dog, and whatever it is that has prevented Evans from ever winning a GT. Same goes for Gesink, sort of. He'd have been a lot closer to his first GT win last year if he managed to STAY ON HIS BIKE FOR CHRISSAKES!

Nibali has mastered "making your own luck" to perfection.

That might be true a GT.

But who is the current world champion of "making your own luck"?

 

[hrotha]

I think VdB could've won this Vuelta after Anton dropping out. Perhaps even without it, but I don't know how Anton time trials.

The good thing about VdB is, he needs less team support then some other riders to be up there in the mountain stages.

No one needs much support to be 5th.

 

[El Pistolero]

No one needs much support to be 5th.

Being fifth in this Tour is harder then being first in this years Vuelta.

 

[hrotha]

Being fifth in this Tour is harder then being first in this years Vuelta.

Possibly, but that doesn't mean you need much support to do it. Different things.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Yup, being 5th in the Tour is something Nibali could not achieve.

 

[theyoungest]

I think VdB could've won this Vuelta after Anton dropping out. Perhaps even without it, but I don't know how Anton time trials.

The good thing about VdB is, he needs less team support then some other riders to be up there in the mountain stages.

Didn't VDB2 have an 8 man team to support him in the Tour? I don't know what Lotto's other objectives were, but if they had any I didn't see them.

 

[insideout leadout]

Yup, being 5th in the Tour is something Nibali could not achieve.

TDF 2010: 5th Vdb +6.54
TDF 2009: 7th Nibali +7.35

In the same ballpark. And Contador's TT sucked this year.

 

[El Pistolero]

Didn't VDB2 have an 8 man team to support him in the Tour? I don't know what Lotto's other objectives were, but if they had any I didn't see them.

They did support him, but VdB likes to ride in the front without hiding behind his teammates like most other GT contenders. Hence he needs less support. Never said he didn't need support. Someone has to fetch his watter bottles and food.

 

[El Pistolero]

TDF 2010: 5th Vdb +6.54
TDF 2009: 7th Nibali +7.35

In the same ballpark. And Contador's TT sucked this year.

Why do people think you can compare times of different Grand Tours? Even Wiggins was up there in 2009...

 

[Climbing]

Yup, being 5th in the Tour is something Nibali could not achieve.

Like 7th in 2009 TdF at age of 24 and without support is much different.
Let's be honest, he is good and still improving, and i see for him a bright future if luck persists.

 

[insideout leadout]

Why do people think you can compare times of different Grand Tours? Even Wiggins was up there in 2009...

What's your point? Wiggins was great last year.

 

[roundabout]

You guys should clue in VdB that he can get 2nd in the Vuelta next year (behind Contador) so that he doesn't waste any effort riding the Tour.

 

[El Pistolero]

What's your point? Wiggins was great last year.

Thing is, he wasn't. They were soft peddling up the mountains.

 

[Scirea]

No one needs much support to be 5th.

Not true...

 

[auscyclefan94]

What's your point? Wiggins was great last year.

If the season is just the tdf and the herald sun tour then yes, Wiggins had a great year!

Cuddles : 2 GT podiums in 8 years
Nibali: 2(more than likely) GT podiums within the same year.

If Nibali isnt close to being a better rider than Cadel then he will in all likelihood be so sometime in the not too distant future.

Learn to count moron... You discount the ttt at the giro and nibali was 5th and Evans has 3 Gt's. This years vuelta has a crap field anyway. Cadel so should of done this race and forgot about le tour!!

btw, how did this thread turn into a thread about cadel without me mentioning it?

 

[The Hitch]

Cuddles : 2 GT podiums in 8 years
Nibali: 2(more than likely) GT podiums within the same year.

If Nibali isnt close to being a better rider than Cadel then he will in all likelihood be so sometime in the not too distant future.

Cuddles also came 3rd at the Vuelta so thats 3 podiums.

Add to that 3 more top 5s and thats still an impressive gt list.

Also bare in mind that Nibali beat Evans at the Giro by 50 seconds. Thats well inside the 1 minute 20 headstart Nibali was given by the TTT. It doesnt take away Nibalis podium but that is relevant to the Nibali vs Evans discussion. Add to ths Evans points jersey nand 2 second places, and i would say Evans was more impressive in the Giro than Nibali.
Nibali is however young so i do expect him to retire a better rider than Cuddles. He just isnt there yet.

 

[hrotha]

Not true...

Relatively speaking, it is totally true. Bottle fetching aside, the times VDB used his team were more for show than anything. You can get into the top 10 without seeing a single teammate once things get really tough. To win a GT, however, you need your teammates to control it. Or to be Savoldelli.