Vuelta a España - Stage 20 San Martín de Valdeiglesias - Bola del Mundo 172.1km

[icefire]

It's a different points system. The same as in the Giro.

But indeed, there was only one real mountain stage. That's a disgrace.

The real disgrace it's that given the success of this year in terms of audience they'll design the course for next year following the same guidelines

 

[khardung la]

In a weird way it might actually help conservation of the area, simply by drawing attention to it. "What triggers suitable conservation" is one of the weirdest processes. If you've ever been involved in conservation you'll know what I'm talking about.

I understand your point, but believe me, the population's concern about the conservation of La Sierra is huge. The Sierra de Guadarrama has been the backyard of Madrid's citizens for the last 5 centuries. There are millions who support the idea of more protection (however the area of today's climb is protected, which prevented the race until this year), but also many who like to ski and have a second house in a cool beautiful place.

Today it was a lost battle for conservationists, but I don't think it will boost so much the debate or draw even more attention. There are 3 ski stations in a 15 kms radius, which are often very bussy. That is the real old problem.

 

[Scirea]

Moncoutie won the third mountain jersey in a row, great stuff. With only 51 points in total, which must be the lowest ever? Last year he had 186 points. Illustrates the fact that this years edition surely didn't have many real mountain stages.

They changed the point system.

 

[khardung la]

Cycling maybe, but cycle racing? With all the support cars, commissaires cars, TV motos and helicopters, team buses, promotional caravan (and all the rubbish they hand out), the finish line paraphernalia, the barricades (and the trucks that carry them to be set out in the morning, and collected in the evening)? The whole point of which is advertising, to make us consume?

Don't get me wrong, I find bike racing entertaining, but the suggestion that because it's not as bad as F1 it's "environmentally friendly" is a bit like saying being run over by a semi-trailer is really nice compared to being run over by an express train.

I think the problem referred to about the inappropriate development of the location has more to do with the ski resorts and roads being built there in the first place than a bike race being there one day of the year.

It's a shame to me that Europeans in general don't understand the concept, let alone value, of wilderness. I don't think the Puerto de Navacerrada/Bola del Mundo (yes, I have been there) remotely qualifies as wilderness (there is no true wilderness anywhere in western europe for that matter), but it is a relatively fragile alpine area and deserves some respect (which appeared to have been given). A 'cowboy' approach to events like this could well have seen enough damage in one short day that would take years to mend, and as a cycling fan I wouldn't want that done in my name.

Agreed. Except for the concept of wilderness. I don't know your occupation or if you have been there often, but some pretty impressive animals claim the area as habitat. The Bola del Mundo is the exact Center of the Sierra, a natural pass from both Mesetas, and hence is critical for the preservation of those animals.

According to wikipedia (only info I can find in english) one can find: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_de_Guadarrama#List_of_animal_species.

Mammals
Squirrel, weasel, Spanish Ibex, rabbit, roe deer, genets, boar, hare, garden dormouse, Eurasian wolf, badger and fox.

Reptiles and amphibians
Various snakes both smooth and viperous, the Iberian endemic Mountain Lizard (iberolacerta cyreni), Alpine Newt and Fire Salamander.

Birds
Citril Finch, Iberian Pied Flycatcher, Southern Grey Shrike, European bee-eater, hoopoe, short-toed treecreeper, jay, great tit, Eurasian woodcock, wren, chough, crested tit, blue tit, kingfisher, white-throated Dipper, blackbird, Firecrest, golden oriole, European Robin.

Birds of prey
Golden Eagle, booted eagle and short-toed eagle, Eurasian Black Vulture and Griffon Vulture, Eagle Owl, Tawny owl and Little Owl, Peregrine falcon, Red Kite and both Common and Honey Buzzard.

Waterfowl
Mallard, Coot, grey heron and Little and Great Crested Grebe.

 

[Arnout]

Could you be even more beside the point? Are you seriously suggesting human beings haven't destroyed enough of this planet as it is? Wow, don't listen to the skeptics too much, it's ruining your eyesight.

No, of course not. I might be a little overreacting, but I am reacting. Reacting to the overprotection of the world. Like I said, there has to be a balance, but in the last 10 years that balance is being distorted by environmentalists. They're overreacting.

However, I did watch for example BBC's Planet Earth more than once and I found myself in amazement every time. The earth is beautiful and shouldn't be destroyed. But the best way to reach that is by being realistic and not by being overprotective.

That said, I have some respect for people who for example battle for conservation of the Bola del Mundo, because they're right that beautiful places should be conserved. But if one single event (without cars etc) destroys an area, what's the use of that area anyway? I don't think it will. But once again, I can understand the issues. By saying environmental talk is nonsense I was mainly talking about the climate hype. I should have clarified that.

 

[Francois the Postman]

I understand your point, but believe me, the population's concern about the conservation of La Sierra is huge. The Sierra de Guadarrama has been the backyard of Madrid's citizens for the last 5 centuries. There are millions who support the idea of more protection (however the area of today's climb is protected, which prevented the race until this year), but also many who like to ski and have a second house in a cool beautiful place.

Today it was a lost battle for conservationists, but I don't think it will boost so much the debate or draw even more attention. There are 3 ski stations in a 15 kms radius, which are often very bussy. That is the real old problem.

I know.

But I'd argue that today was a lost battle for the preservationists. It's a subtle distinction, but an important one. It might actually have been a victory for the conservationists. By labelling one group with the conservationist label you kinda suggest that those that see a different balance between utilization and preservation as a more suitable and sustainable balance are not conservationists. I think that is unhelpful and polarizing in many glorious ways.

 

[icefire]

I understand your point, but believe me, the population's concern about the conservation of La Sierra is huge. The Sierra de Guadarrama has been the backyard of Madrid's citizens for the last 5 centuries. There are millions who support the idea of more protection (however the area of today's climb is protected, which prevented the race until this year), but also many who like to ski and have a second house in a cool beautiful place.

Today it was a lost battle for conservationists, but I don't think it will boost so much the debate or draw even more attention. There are 3 ski stations in a 15 kms radius, which are often very bussy. That is the real old problem.

3 ski stations? One of them was closed, dismantled and reforested in 1999. Was that a lost battle for conservationists? The other two stations hardly have enough snow to be open for 3 months per season.

Conservationists should focus their efforts on what happens on the villages at the footsteps of the mountains year after year (housing bubble) rather than a cycling race at the summit once in a blue Moon or a couple of ski stations in an area of 10kms whose longest ski run is 1km.

BTW, did anybody complain in Covadonga? That's the oldest National Park in Spain AFAIK.

 

[khardung la]

3 ski stations? One of them was closed, dismantled and reforested in 1999. Was that a lost battle for conservationists? The other two stations hardly have enough snow to be open for 3 months per season.

Conservationists should focus their efforts on what happens on the villages at the footsteps of the mountains year after year (housing bubble) rather than a cycling race at the summit once in a blue Moon or a couple of ski stations in an area of 10kms whose longest ski run is 1km.

I lived in the area 15 years, but I live abroad now. I forgot that Cotos is not anymore a ski station. Anyway the fact that it snows less does not prevent the fact that the stations have grown. For example in the late 90's they made a massive intallation of pipes to produce artificial water, the parking was made bigger, etc...

As for the size of the ski stations:

Valdesqui: 20,3 km
Navacerrada 9,9 km

That makes more than 30 km of official pistes. People do ski out of those areas every now and then also.

 

[Mich78BEL]

However this year it was way more exciting than the Tour, and the route offered as many nice possibilities for interesting moments as the tour. It is far from the Tour in prestige, but hey, it is not that far from the Giro. IMHO.

imo the giro is closer to the tour then the vuelta is to the giro imo

 

[Señor_Contador]

Congrats to Nibali. He stuck it out and prevailed.

Methinks Mosquera lost the Vuelta yesterday with the 12-second gift to Vincenzo.

It was a close race. I mean... imagine Mosquera did not drop 12 seconds on stage 19... Imagine Sastre or Velits or Frank Schleck decided to go with Mosquera today and ended up 2nd... That's 32 seconds right there.

At -1 kilometer down, during today's stage, Ezequiel had 19-20 seconds on Nibali, which would've put the Galician in the lead by 14 seconds and in a different frame of mind going up the hill.

Cycling can be THAT cruel. Nibali will enjoy the win for the rest of his life and Mosquera will always have the what-if in the back of his head.

 

[Arnout]

Congrats to Nibali. He stuck it out and prevailed.

Methinks Mosquera lost the Vuelta yesterday with the 12-second gift to Vincenzo.

It was a close race. I mean... imagine Mosquera did not drop 12 seconds on stage 19... Imagine Sastre or Velits or Frank Schleck decided to go with Mosquera today and ended up 2nd... That's 32 seconds right there.

At -1 kilometer down, during today's stage, Ezequiel had 19-20 seconds on Nibali, which would've put the Galician in the lead by 14 seconds and in a different frame of mind going up the hill.

Cycling can be THAT cruel. Nibali will enjoy the win for the rest of his life and Mosquera will always have the what-if in the back of his head.

Imagine me winning.

How could Schleck, Velits or any other bloke "decide" to go with Mosquera. They couldn't. And even with your 32 seconds of and 20 seconds lead it would be tricky, difference would be 0.

 

[The Hitch]

Great race by Vincenzo, Liqui managed it pretty well - I thought they would be put under more pressure, but hey nice one really!

Congratz to Peter great profesional performance for 3 weeks, good job!

And thanks to DT for animating the forum during Vuelta (Nibbs the champ ) and the rest of you guys - best place to follow the race.

Amen.


..............

 

[hrotha]

Imagine me winning.

How could Schleck, Velits or any other bloke "decide" to go with Mosquera. They couldn't. And even with your 32 seconds of and 20 seconds lead it would be tricky, difference would be 0.

Not to mention yesterday's 12 seconds weren't a gift. Saying "Mosquera should have been with Nibali in that finish" is like saying "Nibali should have been with Mosquera in that climb" if he had lost 55 seconds today.

 

[katkotom]

those GPS splits were unreal...18 or 20 seconds on screen and then 10 or 12 at the 2 km banner in reality...no threat to Nibali...he deserved the victory

 

[Señor_Contador]

imo the giro is closer to the tour then the vuelta is to the giro imo

Neither race is close to the Tour de France.

In my opinion some Giros are more interesting than some Vueltas and viceversa. Now, when it comes to besting each other out, whether it's 40 Giros vs. 25 Vueltas or the other way around is really an opinion.

I certainly wish, being a Spaniard, that the Vuelta were managed by somebody other than Unipublic, received half of the institutional support the Giro gets and that the main Spanish riders actually rode the Vuelta.

 

[The Hitch]

Congrats to Nibali. He stuck it out and prevailed.

Methinks Mosquera lost the Vuelta yesterday with the 12-second gift to Vincenzo.

It was a close race. I mean... imagine Mosquera did not drop 12 seconds on stage 19... Imagine Sastre or Velits or Frank Schleck decided to go with Mosquera today and ended up 2nd... That's 32 seconds right there.

At -1 kilometer down, during today's stage, Ezequiel had 19-20 seconds on Nibali, which would've put the Galician in the lead by 14 seconds and in a different frame of mind going up the hill.

Cycling can be THAT cruel. Nibali will enjoy the win for the rest of his life and Mosquera will always have the what-if in the back of his head.

How was Mosquera in the lead? Even at 20 seconds and even if Nibali handt gained time yesterday, Nibali was always in line for the 12 second bonus.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I think more the mental effect the 12 seconds had. 38 seconds and 50 seconds makes a change mentally. You said it yourself prior to the stage

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Either way, the hegemony has been continued.

In 2010, the most prestigious GT was the Tour, followed by the Giro then the Vuelta. And the Giro provided the most excitement, followed by the Vuelta, then the Tour.

More or less the same as every year - even last year, when the Vuelta and Tour seemed to be in an argument as to who would be worse.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Imagine me winning.

How could Schleck, Velits or any other bloke "decide" to go with Mosquera. They couldn't. And even with your 32 seconds of and 20 seconds lead it would be tricky, difference would be 0.

Well, that's where the "imagine" part comes into play. That's all. You're right on the calculations though.

Let's do it again: Nibali had 38 seconds on Mosquera prior to stage 19. Imagine the Spaniard did not concede any time on stage 19. That's 38 seconds going to stage 20.

At -1 kilometer, on the Bola del Mundo stage, Mosquera had 20 seconds on Nibali. If we do the math: 38 - 20 = 18 seconds. Let's say, for the heck of it, that someone ended up the stage between Mosquera and Vincenzo, meaning the Galician would get the 20 second time bonus and Nibali would get 0 (I don't think there was a time bonus for 3rd). That's 18 - 20 = - 2 second to Mosquera, making Ezequiel the winner of the 2010 Vuelta.

That's gotta itch like a bítch with STDs.

 

[icefire]

Mosquera himself said that he was short of gear. He had 36x27 and it's proved insufficient to keep a good cadence in the last 2kms. Anyway, I never thought he could do it. The course leading to the last climb was not hard enough and nothing ever happens in those frequently visited roads unless Delgado is racing.

 

[Barrus]

At -1 kilometer down, during today's stage, Ezequiel had 19-20 seconds on Nibali, which would've put the Galician in the lead by 14 seconds and in a different frame of mind going up the hill.

Cycling can be THAT cruel. Nibali will enjoy the win for the rest of his life and Mosquera will always have the what-if in the back of his head.

To be quite honest, IF the stopwatch from Sporza was correct Mosquerra never had more, than if I am correct 13 seconds

 

[Señor_Contador]

By the by, I'm in no way saying Nibali is not the deserving champion, HE IS. He stuck it out and persevered. He deserves this win more than anyone else.

 

[hrotha]

To be quite honest, IF the stopwatch from Sporza was correct Mosquerra never had more, than if I am correct 13 seconds

When the hard part started and Nibali was dropped and lost some 12 seconds quite fast I thought Mosquera could do it. Actually earlier in the climb when I saw Nibali trying so hard to follow Mosquera's wheel I thought he was going to blow, but I'm glad he didn't.

 

[ttrider]

Yes he certainly deserves it, I question wether Anton would have beaten him, he could easily have lost a minute or 2 in the tt and so maybe Nibali with a performance like today may have held him off anyway

 

[c&cfan]

By the by, I'm in no way saying Nibali is not the deserving champion, HE IS. He stuck it out and persevered. He deserves this win more than anyone else.

sure he does (besides anton) but he is still far away from people around the same age like shleck and contador. nibali only won because there wasnt big guns (in shape) to win the vuelta. and that's the diference to the tour.

still, contador is so good that the tour (even when he is f+cked) is not enough.

that's why that unlike others, he starts february march and april with wins..

then he already won more than one GT in the same season..

and he will do it again.

BTW shleck won anything in this season besides 2 stages against a 90%contador?

no rider in history could have been better than contador in this modern era of cycling.