Vuelta a España 2019 Rumours

[OlavEH]

Re:

The Vuelta really does over deliver. It’s been consistently exciting over the last decade, as opposed to the other two. Last two years may have had the least suspense, but even with the overall wrapped up, the riders kept it entertaining.

Perhaps it overdelivers the expectations most have due to route design, but it's still fairly average overall, not considering the route. It's exciting because of small gaps in the GC. And it's small gaps in the GC because the stage profiles makes it less appealing to attack before the very last kms.

If you are satisfied with a lot of stages with 5-10 min of action and small gaps, I could agree that the Vuelta delivers. If you have other exceptations, the Vuelta is mostly bang average at best. 2012 was perhaps the exception. That version was really good.

 

[Red Rick]

It's not really about gaps being big. It's about something happening every day and unexpected things happening often.

The Vuelta has had lightening in a bottle more than a few times though, with 2012, 2014-2017 a lot of action due to outside circumstances.

 

[ice&fire]

Interview with Guillén. There are a few comments on the route design at the end. Get ready to rant

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/vuelta-a-espana/chris-froome-return-vuelta-espana-2019-says-race-director-399147

 

[OlavEH]

Re:

It's not really about gaps being big. It's about something happening every day and unexpected things happening often.

The Vuelta has had lightening in a bottle more than a few times though, with 2012, 2014-2017 a lot of action due to outside circumstances.

Can you give som examples here? I remember the Formigal stage where Froome lost a lot of time, which was a very entertaining (not expected) stage, but have there been many other similar situations?

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

It's not really about gaps being big. It's about something happening every day and unexpected things happening often.

The Vuelta has had lightening in a bottle more than a few times though, with 2012, 2014-2017 a lot of action due to outside circumstances.

Can you give som examples here? I remember the Formigal stage where Froome lost a lot of time, which was a very entertaining (not expected) stage, but have there been many other similar situations?

Vuelta 2014 had Contador and Froome crashing out in the Tour and thus having the best mountain battle of that year.

2015 had Dumoulin coming out of nowhere which made somebody actually try on breakaway stages before making a pretty average mountain stage an instant classic.

2016 had Formigal

2017 had Contador retiring and blindly attacking everywhere. People were more invested in Contador winning that last win than the GC as soon as Froome had a comfortable lead

 

[OlavEH]

Re: Re:

2015 had Dumoulin coming out of nowhere which made somebody actually try on breakaway stages before making a pretty average mountain stage an instant classic.

2016 had Formigal

2017 had Contador retiring and blindly attacking everywhere. People were more invested in Contador winning that last win than the GC as soon as Froome had a comfortable lead

Yeah, your're right about Dumoulin in 2015, but that is mostly due to a specific race situation more than anything else.

2017 I don't consider as anything special, but then again; I'm not as big Contador fan as many other.

About the Vuelta routes, It's not like I expect a bunch of stages created for as big gaps as possible, but right now it feels like Unipublics objectives is the opposite. Create as many stages with action as possible while combining it with as small gaps as possible. That is done by a lot of stages with muritos and climbs with the steepest part in the end. When we have a stages with a lot action big parts of the stage like 2016 to Formigal or 2016 to Cercedilla, it's more due to coincidence than thanks to Unipublic's design.

 

[Red Rick]

They do try to keep tension all the way to the end, but usually the Vuelta has the hardest stages around stage 14-16 and then a last big MTF on stage 20.

 

[perico]

Re: Re:

It's not really about gaps being big. It's about something happening every day and unexpected things happening often.

The Vuelta has had lightening in a bottle more than a few times though, with 2012, 2014-2017 a lot of action due to outside circumstances.

Can you give som examples here? I remember the Formigal stage where Froome lost a lot of time, which was a very entertaining (not expected) stage, but have there been many other similar situations?

Vuelta 2014 had Contador and Froome crashing out in the Tour and thus having the best mountain battle of that year.

2015 had Dumoulin coming out of nowhere which made somebody actually try on breakaway stages before making a pretty average mountain stage an instant classic.

2016 had Formigal

2017 had Contador retiring and blindly attacking everywhere. People were more invested in Contador winning that last win than the GC as soon as Froome had a comfortable lead

Might have been the best Mtn duel of the decade. That was epic, where Froome perfected his rope-a-dope style and maybe the last time Contador was truly at the height of his powers.

 

[Koronin]

Re:

Vuelta's mediocre routes kinda keep overdelivering.

For all the monotony with murito's, hill top finishes and steep crap, I think the Vuelta does anything besides big mountain stages and variety really well. Pacing is usually pretty good, with the first week having some alright selection, the main mountain blocks at the end of week 2 with some grand finale at the penultimate stage.

Flat stages have been pretty good in the Vuelta too.

Really I think the Vuelta needs to be a little less reliant on steep as hell climbs, mix in more descent finishes in the bigger mountain stages and the medium mountain stages, and find some way to use the biggest climbs they can use as a pass well. Add a little bit more variety to the big name climbs as well. Next time you want to use the Angliru, use Cuitu Negru instead.

Ancares is a great climb and a pass for example, but I don't know if there's enough towns nearby. But then again the top can get a stage finish, so I can't imagine it's that much of a wasteland.

The 2018 route was very disappointing, but it delivered pretty well. Most other routes have been pretty good apart from 1/2 murito's too many.

You may need to wait for Valverde to retire before that happens. It seems they want to ensure there are chances for him to get a stage win.

 

[ice&fire]

Re: Re:

Vuelta's mediocre routes kinda keep overdelivering.

For all the monotony with murito's, hill top finishes and steep crap, I think the Vuelta does anything besides big mountain stages and variety really well. Pacing is usually pretty good, with the first week having some alright selection, the main mountain blocks at the end of week 2 with some grand finale at the penultimate stage.

Flat stages have been pretty good in the Vuelta too.

Really I think the Vuelta needs to be a little less reliant on steep as hell climbs, mix in more descent finishes in the bigger mountain stages and the medium mountain stages, and find some way to use the biggest climbs they can use as a pass well. Add a little bit more variety to the big name climbs as well. Next time you want to use the Angliru, use Cuitu Negru instead.

Ancares is a great climb and a pass for example, but I don't know if there's enough towns nearby. But then again the top can get a stage finish, so I can't imagine it's that much of a wasteland.

The 2018 route was very disappointing, but it delivered pretty well. Most other routes have been pretty good apart from 1/2 murito's too many.

You may need to wait for Valverde to retire before that happens. It seems they want to ensure there are chances for him to get a stage win.

To be fair his two wins this year were on very moderate ramps.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Vuelta's mediocre routes kinda keep overdelivering.

For all the monotony with murito's, hill top finishes and steep crap, I think the Vuelta does anything besides big mountain stages and variety really well. Pacing is usually pretty good, with the first week having some alright selection, the main mountain blocks at the end of week 2 with some grand finale at the penultimate stage.

Flat stages have been pretty good in the Vuelta too.

Really I think the Vuelta needs to be a little less reliant on steep as hell climbs, mix in more descent finishes in the bigger mountain stages and the medium mountain stages, and find some way to use the biggest climbs they can use as a pass well. Add a little bit more variety to the big name climbs as well. Next time you want to use the Angliru, use Cuitu Negru instead.

Ancares is a great climb and a pass for example, but I don't know if there's enough towns nearby. But then again the top can get a stage finish, so I can't imagine it's that much of a wasteland.

The 2018 route was very disappointing, but it delivered pretty well. Most other routes have been pretty good apart from 1/2 murito's too many.

You may need to wait for Valverde to retire before that happens. It seems they want to ensure there are chances for him to get a stage win.

To be fair his two wins this year were on very moderate ramps.

Good point, however, it wouldn't be surprising if that is still part of the Vuelta's thinking.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re:

Interview with Guillén. There are a few comments on the route design at the end. Get ready to rant

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/vuelta-a-espana/chris-froome-return-vuelta-espana-2019-says-race-director-399147

Not much to rant about. He's right.

 

[OlavEH]

Re:

Man, Ancares is really an underated beast

Ancares from that side is a nice climb. Second only to Angliro and perhaps Sierra Nevada via Hazallanas and Sabinas when it comes to possible/plausible MTFs in the Vuelta.

Btw, have they ever climbed Sierra Nevada that way?

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Man, Ancares is really an underated beast

Ancares from that side is a nice climb. Second only to Angliro and perhaps Sierra Nevada via Hazallanas and Sabinas when it comes to possible/plausible MTFs in the Vuelta.

Btw, have they ever climbed Sierra Nevada that way?

I don't think so.

The great thing about Ancares is that it's a pass and it can effectively function as one in multiple ways, so you don't have to finish on top. It could perfectly be used as the Mortirolo's Spanish little brother, and from what I understand, even the approach in the profile could be much harder with a different climb than Sierra Morela

Really the Vuelta could do so much by just using their murito's at 10/15/20km from the finish line, and they'd have good medium mountain stages without having to turn it into a Giroesque medium mountain roller coaster.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Man, Ancares is really an underated beast

Ancares from that side is a nice climb. Second only to Angliro and perhaps Sierra Nevada via Hazallanas and Sabinas when it comes to possible/plausible MTFs in the Vuelta.

Btw, have they ever climbed Sierra Nevada that way?

I don't think so.

The great thing about Ancares is that it's a pass and it can effectively function as one in multiple ways, so you don't have to finish on top. It could perfectly be used as the Mortirolo's Spanish little brother, and from what I understand, even the approach in the profile could be much harder with a different climb than Sierra Morela

Really the Vuelta could do so much by just using their murito's at 10/15/20km from the finish line, and they'd have good medium mountain stages without having to turn it into a Giroesque medium mountain roller coaster.

Well, Pelliceira and their ilk aren't fully paved which means Sierra Morela remains realistically the best lead-in. Unless you climb the Pan do Zarco side to Cruz de Cespedosa then descend through Balouta to do the Pan do Zarco side again only going all the way to the summit this time - a bit like the Lagunas de Neila stages in the Vuelta a Burgos or doing Cuchu Puercu before Cobertoria.

 

[ice&fire]

Re: Re:

Man, Ancares is really an underated beast

Ancares from that side is a nice climb. Second only to Angliro and perhaps Sierra Nevada via Hazallanas and Sabinas when it comes to possible/plausible MTFs in the Vuelta.

Btw, have they ever climbed Sierra Nevada that way?

I don't think so.

The great thing about Ancares is that it's a pass and it can effectively function as one in multiple ways, so you don't have to finish on top. It could perfectly be used as the Mortirolo's Spanish little brother, and from what I understand, even the approach in the profile could be much harder with a different climb than Sierra Morela

Really the Vuelta could do so much by just using their murito's at 10/15/20km from the finish line, and they'd have good medium mountain stages without having to turn it into a Giroesque medium mountain roller coaster.

That side of Ancares they did in 2014 is just a notch below Larrau: it's 2km shorter but only 100m less elevation gain. Larrau has more kms above 10% but it also has a longer easy section after Erroimendy.
Regarding that harder approach it belongs to the kind of rumour that won't happen soon as it has an unpaved descent with a 'geopolitical' problem. The descent starts at a village on the Asturian side of the border with Galicia but the whole descent is in Galician land so it's the kind of road that will remain unpaved forever.

More rumors, these coming from the man who discovered Cuitu Negru and has helped Escartín and Co. with the desing of some mountain stages in Asturias since then. He's suggesting La Cubilla and Santuario del Acebo. Acebo has had regular presence in the Vuelta a Asturias but La Cubilla would be one of those three climbs never used in a pro race that Guillén was talking about in that cyclingweekly interview.

 

[OlavEH]

Re: Re:

The great thing about Ancares is that it's a pass and it can effectively function as one in multiple ways, so you don't have to finish on top. It could perfectly be used as the Mortirolo's Spanish little brother, and from what I understand, even the approach in the profile could be much harder with a different climb than Sierra Morela

Motirolo's little brother? And by that you mean a finish in a nearby small town instead of as a MTF?

 

[ice&fire]

According to La Vuelta web site the race presentation will be on Wed 19th of December. This is just 6 weeks from now.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

The great thing about Ancares is that it's a pass and it can effectively function as one in multiple ways, so you don't have to finish on top. It could perfectly be used as the Mortirolo's Spanish little brother, and from what I understand, even the approach in the profile could be much harder with a different climb than Sierra Morela

Motirolo's little brother? And by that you mean a finish in a nearby small town instead of as a MTF?

Ancares is a pass, and was used as such in 2011, but it was too far from the finish right before 2 MTFs.

They used a slightly different route between Sierra Morela and Ancares here, but it works the same.

I think the only problem with this is how tiny all the neighbouring towns are.

 

[railxmig]

A lot of talk about Ancares here it seems. For Spanish standards a very good climb with a rather unfortunate placement in the middle of nowhere. It seems the most natural non-MTF finishes are either the village of Vega de Espinareda or nearby little town (~5000 pop.) of Fabero. Both towns are rather inconspicuous and i doubt they have the money to host a Vuelta stage but on the other side the race doesn't shy from little towns in the middle of nowhere (even this year you had Bermillo de Sayago). Other problem with Ancares is that most of the roads in the general vicinity are either narrow and/or in a shaky state.

If you do something like in 2011 but place the finish closer (Vega de Espinareda and Fabero are just after Lumeras), do the hardest side of Ancares (2014) and make it the last GC stage of the race after let's say Santuario Acebo then it'll maybe work out quite well.

There's also a quite interesting and irregular western side starting just below Donís with the first murito to the village on dirt. It's just after a narrow but surfaced descent from Vilar so that's a proposition if you prefer something a bit more outlandish.

 

[OlavEH]

Re: Re:

Ancares is a pass, and was used as such in 2011, but it was too far from the finish right before 2 MTFs.

They used a slightly different route between Sierra Morela and Ancares here, but it works the same.

I think the only problem with this is how tiny all the neighbouring towns are.

Yep, but since you mentioned Mortirolo I that it perhaps was a more obvious and better stage finish than Ponferrada, which is too far away to make Ancares an important GC climb. If they use Ancares it should be as a stage finish. It's definitely better than other isolated climbs used frequently as MTFs in Vuelta, climbs like Covadonga, Pandera, Aitana and similar.

 

[Red Rick]

A lot of talk about Ancares here it seems. For Spanish standards a very good climb with a rather unfortunate placement in the middle of nowhere. It seems the most natural non-MTF finishes are either the village of Vega de Espinareda or nearby little town (~5000 pop.) of Fabero. Both towns are rather inconspicuous and i doubt they have the money to host a Vuelta stage but on the other side the race doesn't shy from little towns in the middle of nowhere (even this year you had Bermillo de Sayago). Other problem with Ancares is that most of the roads in the general vicinity are either narrow and/or in a shaky state.

If you do something like in 2011 but place the finish closer (Vega de Espinareda and Fabero are just after Lumeras), do the hardest side of Ancares (2014) and make it the last GC stage of the race after let's say Santuario Acebo then it'll maybe work out quite well.

There's also a quite interesting and irregular western side starting just below Donís with the first murito to the village on dirt. It's just after a narrow but surfaced descent from Vilar so that's a proposition if you prefer something a bit more outlandish.

Fabero is that big?

5000 is not that small for finish in mountain stage.

 

[ice&fire]

Candín is big enough to have a bar. And that's more than what you can find at the summit

Seriously, all stages in those sparsely populated areas are paid by regional governments or provincial councils. So as long as there is space to deploy the infrastructure any place is feasible. It's just a matter of interest of the involved actors.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Candín is big enough to have a bar. And that's more than what you can find at the summit

Seriously, all stages in those sparsely populated areas are paid by regional governments or provincial councils. So as long as there is space to deploy the infrastructure any place is feasible. It's just a matter of interest of the involved actors.

Bar is good

Yeah I guess that's also part of the reason we still haven't seen the Gamoniteiro cause it's like 1km from the Angliru as the crow flies.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

A lot of talk about Ancares here it seems. For Spanish standards a very good climb with a rather unfortunate placement in the middle of nowhere. It seems the most natural non-MTF finishes are either the village of Vega de Espinareda or nearby little town (~5000 pop.) of Fabero. Both towns are rather inconspicuous and i doubt they have the money to host a Vuelta stage but on the other side the race doesn't shy from little towns in the middle of nowhere (even this year you had Bermillo de Sayago). Other problem with Ancares is that most of the roads in the general vicinity are either narrow and/or in a shaky state.

If you do something like in 2011 but place the finish closer (Vega de Espinareda and Fabero are just after Lumeras), do the hardest side of Ancares (2014) and make it the last GC stage of the race after let's say Santuario Acebo then it'll maybe work out quite well.

There's also a quite interesting and irregular western side starting just below Donís with the first murito to the village on dirt. It's just after a narrow but surfaced descent from Vilar so that's a proposition if you prefer something a bit more outlandish.

Fabero is that big?

5000 is not that small for finish in mountain stage.

The problem is that Fabero is across province lines, so the finish would be paid for by León with almost all of the important parts of the stage in Galicia.