Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2020: Stage 17 (Sequeros > Alto de la Covatilla , 178.2 km)

[Samu Cuenca]

Roglic likes green jersey

Roglic probably likes green energy

That's why he was using Soler energy today

He got it en Mas.

 

[Blanco]

There are already conspiracies about today being Unzue's revenge about Carapaz leaving Movistar.

It's not conspiracy, that exactly happened

 

[Eeslliw]

Well, he is a good liar too

Maybe it wasn't translated right. On last sentence he said: but if it wouldn't be enough, it just wouldn't be enough (in sense, that he couldn't do more)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

My thoughts on the Movistar/Roglic/Carapaz whatever it was at the end of the stage. Movistar has had a long standing feud with Ineos/Sky dating back to the 2012 Tour/Vuelta with Sky/Ineos attacking when Valverde had a mechanical (Vuelta) and crash (Tour) and have never forgotten or forgiven and have taken any opportunity to go after Ineos since then as payback. Then we get the situation with Carapaz signing with Ineos BEFORE the Giro and telling Movistar they could still negotiate with them for weeks after that. Next we have Amador signing with Movistar then signing with Ineos and (he or agent) claiming he never signed anything with Movistar until Unzue showed the media the signed pre contract and demanded full payment of the out fee. That went through the courts until Movistar was finally paid the full out fee sometime in Dec 2019. Of course the agent being black listed by the team during this with Unzue saying that they wouldn't allow a Trek/Sosa situation to happen to them and they were not going to be a feeder team for Ineos. Then we also have to add one more piece of information to all of the above. Last year's Vuelta Valverde and Roglic helped each other out on several different stages where they were working together to chase down riders in front of them (mostly Lopez, Pogacar, and Quintana). (The crosswind/crash incident their documentary proved them to be correct in that they had planned on attacking in that moment on the team bus before the stage started. Roglic never really said anything publicly about that situation.) It seems that Roglic gained allies in Movistar in last year's Vuelta.

Actually the animosity dates to March 2012, when Movistar attacked a descent and Levi Leipheimer crashed, and Wiggins (race leader) and Geraint Thomas then started waxing lyrical in the press about what villains Movistar were and how their behaviour not waiting for Levi was unacceptable, despite it both not concerning them and benefiting them by removing their nearest contender (plus, the pace can't have been that high as neither Wiggins nor Thomas crashed trying to keep up!). Because when Valverde crashed in the Volta a Catalunya and OPQS put on the pace and distanced him, Movistar had nothing to say, and accepted it as a "fair's fair, that's racing" kind of thing. But when Sky responded in kind in the Vuelta when Valverde crashed, they were much more irate. Not because there was no reason for Sky to attack there, but because of the brazen hypocrisy that this was the team that had told them that that exact behaviour was unacceptable villainy, and now here they were, not getting retribution because it wasn't them that was supposedly wronged, but actively profiting from the same behaviour they criticised! If there had been none of that previous and Sky had still done what they did in the Vuelta, Movistar would likely have shrugged and carried on, rather than raising a stink about it in the media as they did. Racing was on.

That said, I don't think the 2012 disputes have anything to do with the current situation. That's all water under the bridge in the péloton. People know Movistar operate a 'play to the whistle' policy and that there has been a disproportionate number of incidents happening to the yellow jersey necessitating application of the unwritten rules when Sky have been holding it. The two teams don't get on because they stand opposed to one another for a nuumber of reasons, but that's been largely just because they are posited as rivals at the head of races, as for many years Movistar and Quintana were the primary opposition to Sky at the Tour. Animosity is much more likely centred around the continual poaching of riders and the poor faith negotiation of Acquadro, so exacerbated by the recent transfers of Amador and Carapaz because they were much more ingrained within the team than a lot of the riders Sky had taken.

If anything is going to have precipitated a several year grudge, it would be the 2013-2014 offseason, when Pinarello signed an exclusivity deal with Sky. Abarcá had been Pinarello's representatives in the péloton since the early 80s when Ángel Arroyo was their team leader. Pinarello had worked closely with them for 30 years and losing that relationship to a moneyed upstart will have been a deep cut.

 

[Red Rick]

Actually the animosity dates to March 2012, when Movistar attacked a descent and Levi Leipheimer crashed, and Wiggins (race leader) and Geraint Thomas then started waxing lyrical in the press about what villains Movistar were and how their behaviour not waiting for Levi was unacceptable, despite it both not concerning them and benefiting them by removing their nearest contender (plus, the pace can't have been that high as neither Wiggins nor Thomas crashed trying to keep up!).

I can't even

 

[Koronin]

Actually the animosity dates to March 2012, when Movistar attacked a descent and Levi Leipheimer crashed, and Wiggins (race leader) and Geraint Thomas then started waxing lyrical in the press about what villains Movistar were and how their behaviour not waiting for Levi was unacceptable, despite it both not concerning them and benefiting them by removing their nearest contender (plus, the pace can't have been that high as neither Wiggins nor Thomas crashed trying to keep up!). Because when Valverde crashed in the Volta a Catalunya and OPQS put on the pace and distanced him, Movistar had nothing to say, and accepted it as a "fair's fair, that's racing" kind of thing. But when Sky responded in kind in the Vuelta when Valverde crashed, they were much more irate. Not because there was no reason for Sky to attack there, but because of the brazen hypocrisy that this was the team that had told them that that exact behaviour was unacceptable villainy, and now here they were, not getting retribution because it wasn't them that was supposedly wronged, but actively profiting from the same behaviour they criticised! If there had been none of that previous and Sky had still done what they did in the Vuelta, Movistar would likely have shrugged and carried on, rather than raising a stink about it in the media as they did. Racing was on.

That said, I don't think the 2012 disputes have anything to do with the current situation. That's all water under the bridge in the péloton. People know Movistar operate a 'play to the whistle' policy and that there has been a disproportionate number of incidents happening to the yellow jersey necessitating application of the unwritten rules when Sky have been holding it. The two teams don't get on because they stand opposed to one another for a nuumber of reasons, but that's been largely just because they are posited as rivals at the head of races, as for many years Movistar and Quintana were the primary opposition to Sky at the Tour. Animosity is much more likely centred around the continual poaching of riders and the poor faith negotiation of Acquadro, so exacerbated by the recent transfers of Amador and Carapaz because they were much more ingrained within the team than a lot of the riders Sky had taken.

If anything is going to have precipitated a several year grudge, it would be the 2013-2014 offseason, when Pinarello signed an exclusivity deal with Sky. Abarcá had been Pinarello's representatives in the péloton since the early 80s when Ángel Arroyo was their team leader. Pinarello had worked closely with them for 30 years and losing that relationship to a moneyed upstart will have been a deep cut.

I suspect we can just keep adding and adding things to why there are major issues between Movistar and Ineos and thus Movistar see an opportunity to hurt Ineos in any way and will take it. It also helps that Movistar as a team has a decent to good relationship with Roglic. Who knows maybe Roglic felt last year it was a good idea to try to solidify some good will on his part with Movistar. It certainly helped his position here. They also appear to have had at least a decent relationship with J-V over the decades, as we are talking about 2 of the 3 oldest teams in the peloton as well. So they have a long history with each other and know each other well.

 

[Red Rick]

Movistar vs Sky/Ineos would make a decent TV show I reckon

 

[topcat]

Movistar vs Sky/Ineos would make a decent TV show I reckon

Movistar vs Skineos at dodgeball

 

[Blanco]

Vuelta lost by Carapaz.

His late attack showed he had the legs, but obviously did not have the balls to attack when he should have. On the steep part of the climb, with about 5k to go.

Better to try and lose 3rd to Carthy than to lose the Vuelta as he did.

Movistar behaviour really shameful and embarrassing.

He needs a set up, if he means to drop Roglic. He can't do it at will, and whenever he wants, you know... And the only reason he succeed today was because Carthy put in a huge attack, and later Mas soften things up even more.
Now, if he had a teammate or two who could set blistering pace, that would be whole different story, but he hadn't got.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Movistar vs Sky/Ineos would make a decent TV show I reckon

Antiques Roadshow: Valverde vs. Froome

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Movistar vs Sky/Ineos would make a decent TV show I reckon

Unzué and Brailsford as an odd couple flatmates sitcom, with Brailsford always schmoozing with any of Unzué's friends he brings round and turning them away from him. Or as a chiller where everybody in the Unzué family are stranded in a hotel in rainy Britain and start seeing apparitions of a bald-headed Faust, starring Linda Blair as Andrey Amador.

 

[Lequack]

A nice podcast with plenty of laughs

Stage 17 Recap, Analysis, Banter w/ Ned Boulting, David Millar (34:30 English) — itv-podcast
www.steephill.tv/players/720/spreaker/?title=Stage+17+Recap,+Analysis,+Banter+w/+Ned+Boulting,+David+Millar&dashboard=vuelta-a-espana&id=https://www.spreaker.com/user/11347412/revuelta-stage-17_1|41848718|https://d3wo5wojvuv7l.cloudfront.net/images.spreaker.com/original/d9047d0a8ada5589969cad733ad05105.jpg&yr=2020

And another picture of the day

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I can't even

On a scale of one to even, I just can't.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Unzué and Brailsford as an odd couple flatmates sitcom, with Brailsford always schmoozing with any of Unzué's friends he brings round and turning them away from him. Or as a chiller where everybody in the Unzué family are stranded in a hotel in rainy Britain and start seeing apparitions of a bald-headed Faust, starring Linda Blair as Andrey Amador.

Brailsford as Senator Palpatine, Froome as Darth Maul, Unzue as Obi-Wan Kenobi, Carapaz as Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, Soler and Mas as C3PO and R2D2 and Roglic as Yoda (he's green) in The Movistar Wars: Episode who even knows? - The Abarca/Armada Strikes Back.

 

[Tonton]

I'm not sure that politics played a role today. Sometimes, late in GTs, alliances form due to riders' interests.

But I agree that Carapaz lost this Vuelta as much as Roglic won it. Not testing Roglic earlier on the Angliru was a HUGE mistake, as we saw Roglic struggling when attacks took place. Conclusion: you don't know if you don't try, and in the end, too little, too late. With an ITT coming up, it was a no-brainer. Roglic was the man to beat. Had Mas not attacked, they would all have got to the line together. Conservative riding bit them in the @ss.

Then today, again, too little too late. New Rominger? I don't know. ThatVuelta kinda showed Roglic as a new Alaphilippe in some weird way: when you get gradients above 9% (8% for Alaf') you can inflict some damage on him. So do it...

 

[Koronin]

I'm not sure that politics played a role today. Sometimes, late in GTs, alliances form due to riders' interests.

But I agree that Carapaz lost this Vuelta as much as Roglic won it. Not testing Roglic earlier on the Angliru was a HUGE mistake, as we saw Roglic struggling when attacks took place. Conclusion: you don't know if you don't try, and in the end, too little, too late. With an ITT coming up, it was a no-brainer. Roglic was the man to beat. Had Mas not attacked, they would all have got to the line together. Conservative riding bit them in the @ss.

Then today, again, too little too late. New Rominger? I don't know. ThatVuelta kinda showed Roglic as a new Alaphilippe in some weird way: when you get gradients above 9% (8% for Alaf') you can inflict some damage on him. So do it...

Or maybe Roglic is actually the new Valverde? Although that may be Pogacar......

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Carapaz lost the Vuelta on boni seconds and because of his poor team..
Feel like he could've definitely won it with a bit more support.

But also applaud Roglic, he might not be the most spectacular rider, but if you win 4 stages you can hardly say he didn't deserve to win.

Also really delighted to see Ide Schelling (pulling until 5km to go) and Thymen Arensman (was with the best 10 GC riders today) so good deep in the 3rd week of the Vuelta.
Especially considering Arensman is 20 and he had an awful 2019, after a good 2018 (2nd behind Pogacar in Avenir). I won't start the arensman hype yet, but it's promising to see anyway

 

[johnymax]

Or maybe Roglic is actually the new Valverde? Although that may be Pogacar......

I don't get it. How are Pogačar and Valverde comparable type of riders, when one of the very few things Valverde knew was out of reach for him, was winning the Tour. And it never looked like he was coming close to the Tour victory either. On the other hand, Pogačar has won the Tour in his first attempt.

With Roglič there are more similarities for now, but Roglič is a better TT rider than Valverde ever was and a better climber over 2000m. That makes him a better GT rider in my opinion.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Roglic is not comparable with Valverde in the way that Roglic is a far superior climber and tt-er than Valverde ever was, even in peak.
Roglic is comparable to Valverde in the way that Roglic has a good sprint on both flat and hilly terrain, far superior to every other GC riders and can even contend with good punchers.
Roglic is not comparable with Valverde in the way that his sprint is good enough to beat the likes of Alaphilippe (unless they cheer too early)

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I'm not sure that politics played a role today. Sometimes, late in GTs, alliances form due to riders' interests.

Agree. I also think people overlook the fact that Dan Martin dropped early on the climb and Mas had a (small) chance to pass him.
I doubt Movistar really knew how far behind Martin was and in the end Mas lacked only about 50s to get 4th. So it was in Movistar interest to get Mas to the finish line as quick as possible.

 

[Tonton]

Or maybe Roglic is actually the new Valverde? Although that may be Pogacar......

It's funny, as I was writing my post, I had that thought. And Pog may actually be the new Rominger.

 

[Koronin]

I don't get it. How are Pogačar and Valverde comparable type of riders, when one of the very few things Valverde knew was out of reach for him, was winning the Tour. And it never looked like he was coming close to the Tour victory either. On the other hand, Pogačar has won the Tour in his first attempt.

With Roglič there are more similarities for now, but Roglič is a better TT rider than Valverde ever was and a better climber over 2000m. That makes him a better GT rider in my opinion.

There are similarities of both to Valverde. Pogacar is more of a climber than Valverde however, as for the Tour and being or not being out of reach, in the end yes, but there are also some circumstances as well.

Roglic is more of an all rounder like Valverde is and appears to also like a heavier race calendar.

Roglic is not comparable with Valverde in the way that Roglic is a far superior climber and tt-er than Valverde ever was, even in peak.
Roglic is comparable to Valverde in the way that Roglic has a good sprint on both flat and hilly terrain, far superior to every other GC riders and can even contend with good punchers.
Roglic is not comparable with Valverde in the way that his sprint is good enough to beat the likes of Alaphilippe (unless they cheer too early)

You just proved why we'll never see another the likes of Valverde again.
Well when Valverde turned pro he was thought to be a sprinter who could climb.

It's funny, as I was writing my post, I had that thought. And Pog may actually be the new Rominger.

I somewhat think Roglic may actually be as close as we ever see to someone like Valverde again.

 

[ice&fire]

It's funny, as I was writing my post, I had that thought. And Pog may actually be the new Rominger.

Rominger's first GT win was the '92 Vuelta.
In '93 he won again the Vuelta and finished 2nd at the Tour.
It seems that Roglic rides like Valverde to get Rominger's results.

 

[Carols]

Or maybe Roglic is actually the new Valverde? Although that may be Pogacar......

He's already won more GTs than Bala and he did it within 1 year .

 

[Koronin]

He's already won more GTs than Bala and he did it within 1 year .

He hasn't won nearly as many one day races or one week races. Nor does he even have a Worlds podium. Yes he got started later. (Valverde had his first GT podium at 23 years old.)

 

[Tonton]

Rominger's first GT win was the '92 Vuelta.
In '93 he won again the Vuelta and finished 2nd at the Tour.
It seems that Roglic rides like Valverde to get Rominger's results.

Wow! I think you nailed it! Super post.