Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2020: Stage 7 (Vitoria-Gasteiz > Villanueva de Valdegovia, 159,7 km)

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Why would he work if that meant he would lose? It would have zero benefit.
He raced smart and did what was necessary to win.
Now he has the reputation and everyone knows that he won't work so they should not work if he is there.

Then why did you expect him to work?
Well what he did has made him enemies and ensured his reputation as wheel sucker whom you need to not work with.
 
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Now he has the reputation and everyone knows that he won't work so they should not work if he is there.



Well what he did has made him enemies and ensured his reputation as wheel sucker whom you need to not work with.
So you are suggesting he will never be in a functioning breakaway again? I find that hard to believe.
If that were true it would be much more difficult to form a breakaway.
 
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Because he REFUSED to work. If he had worked he obviously would have lost. He did NOT deserve the win. He did NO WORK AT ALL. Then came up with a BS excuse that no one believes. He earned the reputation today as a wheel sucker that can't win if he does any work.
Why would nobody believe him? It's a perfectly reasonable justification for not working. They might think he exaggerated or milked it, but especially before Amador started hauling the gap down from 2 minutes to 1, it made sense.

If he had been on, say, Burgos-BH or something where a stage win is the max they can expect from the race and he pulled this stunt, sure he'd get criticised for it. But while Valverde isn't a particular GC threat overall you might say, at the same time he was only 3 minutes down and it gives Movistar three cards to play, just as Soler has made himself an active player again. Woods was working off the front on his own, but when joined by people who were relatively close in the GC, he stopped collaborating so much. I take umbrage at GCN talking about how Woods' tactics are going to destroy the break, then hailing it as a tactical masterclass after they spent several kilometres criticising him for them, but I don't really take any umbrage at Woods for winning that way. He didn't want to go to the line with Valverde and he correctly isolated Fraile as the biggest threat to ensure he dropped him. He let others chase each other down but he chased down moves himself when required.
 
I disagree, and as such think what he did was worth it.
1 Vuelta stage win outweighs annoying a few riders for a short while. Just my opinion.
Except when one of those riders happens to be one of the peloton's leaders it may not be a good idea. In this case, you're talking about a team that still holds a grudge over an incident that happened in 2012 with another team. One of the other riders happens to race for another team that is very good at holding grudges as well.


Why would nobody believe him? It's a perfectly reasonable justification for not working. They might think he exaggerated or milked it, but especially before Amador started hauling the gap down from 2 minutes to 1, it made sense.

If he had been on, say, Burgos-BH or something where a stage win is the max they can expect from the race and he pulled this stunt, sure he'd get criticised for it. But while Valverde isn't a particular GC threat overall you might say, at the same time he was only 3 minutes down and it gives Movistar three cards to play, just as Soler has made himself an active player again. Woods was working off the front on his own, but when joined by people who were relatively close in the GC, he stopped collaborating so much. I take umbrage at GCN talking about how Woods' tactics are going to destroy the break, then hailing it as a tactical masterclass after they spent several kilometres criticising him for them, but I don't really take any umbrage at Woods for winning that way. He didn't want to go to the line with Valverde and he correctly isolated Fraile as the biggest threat to ensure he dropped him. He let others chase each other down but he chased down moves himself when required.
Except it's not a reasonable excuse, esp when you consider the FACT that Valverde has been having issues staying with the better climbers and thus the minute he gained today he'll very likely lose tomorrow. Making the excuse even worse. Woods was only working for own agenda and nothing more. Woods destroyed his reputation for a stage win. I guess as he's what 34 he's more than happy to destroy his reputation as he's likely going to retire in a year or two anyway and likely doesn't care if he has any friends in the peloton. What he did is show that he only cared about his own ambition and likely doesn't believe in Carthy or doesn't care as he's leaving the team at the end of the year.
 
Yea, but it's a Grand Tour and lasts 3 weeks, and riders in form at the start of the race might not be in form at the end and vice versa. Might Valverde lose a bunch of time tomorrow? Sure. But Jumbo still chased Nairo Quintana when he got up the road in last year's race, did they not? If Jumbo had had a guy in that move with Nairo, that guy would have been absolutely pilloried if they collaborated with Quintana, and rightly so. Valverde, 40 years old and not in great form though he may be, was on the podium of this race last year. That's not a guy you give free time to when they're only 3 minutes down. Had he crashed and lost half an hour in an earlier stage, maybe it plays out differently, or maybe it doesn't. Look at the last 40km of the Saint-Gaudens stage in 2009, with the group of 4. Efimkin does zero work, sits on the back for ages, then attacks... and everybody chases him down angrily. Luís León Sánchez is communicating with the other perseguidores, and at first they're working well but a little after that he's taking shorter turns, looking tired, a bit unsteady on the bike, having trouble keeping the wheel. They catch Efimkin, and then there are a few small digs and attacks, Sánchez is usually the slowest to react and riders are even trying to attack when they're in the position in front of him as they can get the jump on the others... but Luísle is bluffing and when he makes his move he makes it stick, and wins the stage. None of the others blame him or get angry with him like they did with Efimkin. They knew he was contributing and he was trying to work to close the gap and to chase down Efimkin, but he was on the edge... then they realised they got outsmarted, because Luísle played the game better than them. That was a stage where nobody had any GC aspirations or teammates in strong positions, so everybody was judged on their merits as contributors to the break. Woods could also have bluffed that he was more tired than the others since he was the one that had been away solo beforehand so he'd been on the attack for longer. If anything, the fact he didn't contribute when the group of 5 were rolling through fairly well together is the only thing that stopped him winning the combativity prize, hardly a wheelsucker's preserve.

Here, with Valverde so close in the GC, there are more factors. As long as they're collaborating, he's gaining. He is a winner out of today even without winning the stage because he gained a minute on the GC. Woods, unless he won the stage, was going to lose out on the stage; he would have expended his energy for nothing and enabled opposition to close in on his team leader. And since he didn't fancy winning the stage if he came to the line with Valverde, he had to find a way to get rid of him. Which he did.
 
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Except when one of those riders happens to be one of the peloton's leaders it may not be a good idea. In this case, you're talking about a team that still holds a grudge over an incident that happened in 2012 with another team. One of the other riders happens to race for another team that is very good at holding grudges as well.




Except it's not a reasonable excuse, esp when you consider the FACT that Valverde has been having issues staying with the better climbers and thus the minute he gained today he'll very likely lose tomorrow. Making the excuse even worse. Woods was only working for own agenda and nothing more. Woods destroyed his reputation for a stage win. I guess as he's what 34 he's more than happy to destroy his reputation as he's likely going to retire in a year or two anyway and likely doesn't care if he has any friends in the peloton. What he did is show that he only cared about his own ambition and likely doesn't believe in Carthy or doesn't care as he's leaving the team at the end of the year.
I think there is a difference between Valverde being a respected leader in the peloton and him having absolute authority over letting any DISGUSTING WHEELSUCKERS into breakaway.
 
Just watched today's splendid stage and right after quickly glanced this thread.
I don't quite understand all the bashing of today's winner for 'wheel sucking'.
Michael Woods had a very good argument in a team mate named Hugh John Carthy in not participating too much in a break with a direct GC competitor to Carthy, named Alejandro Valverde.
So Woods did all the right tactics.
Don't know if it's been mentioned already here, just glanced a few minutes of the thread.
And ofcourse kudos to Valverde for taking his chance and going for it. That was good to watch.
 
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Just watched today's splendid stage and right after quickly glanced this thread.
I don't quite understand all the bashing of today's winner for 'wheel sucking'.
Michael Woods had a very good argument in a team mate named Hugh John Carthy in not participating too much in a break with a direct GC competitor to Carthy, named Alejandro Valverde.
So Woods did all the right tactics.
Don't know if it's been mentioned already here, just glanced a few minutes of the thread.
And ofcourse kudos to Valverde for taking his chance and going for it. That was good to watch.
Except that excuse is 100% BS. Valverde hasn't shown the ability to climb with the top GC riders at all this year INCLUDING in this Vuelta. Allowing him to take 2 minutes on this stage wouldn't have meant anything at all, esp with the energy he wasted on this stage. With what happened Valverde should have NEVER gone into the break in the first place and just sat in the peloton as he got NOTHING at all out of it. The time is WORTHLESS as he'll just lose it again tomorrow because his climbing IS that far off. Nope, Woods was ONLY thinking about the stage win and used Carthy as a BS excuse that was fully worthless. It's also possible as he is leaving the team at the end of the year he doesn't even care what Carthy does on GC.

I wonder if Woods would have "lost his reputation in the peloton" if Valverde had not been in the breakaway with him :rolleyes:
If he would have only sat on wheels, which is very likely then YES because it's obvious he couldn't win any other way and the ONLY thing he cared about in the stage was winning. His excuse was BS.
 
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Except that excuse is 100% BS. Valverde hasn't shown the ability to climb with the top GC riders at all this year INCLUDING in this Vuelta. Allowing him to take 2 minutes on this stage wouldn't have meant anything at all, esp with the energy he wasted on this stage. With what happened Valverde should have NEVER gone into the break in the first place and just sat in the peloton as he got NOTHING at all out of it. The time is WORTHLESS as he'll just lose it again tomorrow because his climbing IS that far off. Nope, Woods was ONLY thinking about the stage win and used Carthy as a BS excuse that was fully worthless. It's also possible as he is leaving the team at the end of the year he doesn't even care what Carthy does on GC.



If he would have only sat on wheels, which is very likely then YES because it's obvious he couldn't win any other way and the ONLY thing he cared about in the stage was winning. His excuse was BS.
Doesn't this just prove that he made the correct decision.
 
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Except when one of those riders happens to be one of the peloton's leaders it may not be a good idea. In this case, you're talking about a team that still holds a grudge over an incident that happened in 2012 with another team. One of the other riders happens to race for another team that is very good at holding grudges as well.




Except it's not a reasonable excuse, esp when you consider the FACT that Valverde has been having issues staying with the better climbers and thus the minute he gained today he'll very likely lose tomorrow. Making the excuse even worse. Woods was only working for own agenda and nothing more. Woods destroyed his reputation for a stage win. I guess as he's what 34 he's more than happy to destroy his reputation as he's likely going to retire in a year or two anyway and likely doesn't care if he has any friends in the peloton. What he did is show that he only cared about his own ambition and likely doesn't believe in Carthy or doesn't care as he's leaving the team at the end of the year.
Wait, so you're saying that by not working in front with Valverde (the GC threat), Woods showed that he doesn't believe in Carthy (his GC hope)?

Please don't ever become a commentator for Danish TV.
 
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Doesn't this just prove that he made the correct decision.
It proves his excuse was BS.

Wait, so you're saying that by not working in front with Valverde (the GC threat), Woods showed that he doesn't believe in Carthy (his GC hope)?

Please don't ever become a commentator for Danish TV.
I'm saying that his excuse about Carthy was BS and that he only cared about the stage win not about Carthy because if Valverde, this year, the way he's riding is a threat to Carthy, then Carthy has no chance of finishing on the podium of this Vuelta.
 
Yea, but it's a Grand Tour and lasts 3 weeks, and riders in form at the start of the race might not be in form at the end and vice versa. Might Valverde lose a bunch of time tomorrow? Sure. But Jumbo still chased Nairo Quintana when he got up the road in last year's race, did they not? If Jumbo had had a guy in that move with Nairo, that guy would have been absolutely pilloried if they collaborated with Quintana, and rightly so.
Don't forget that Koronin got a melt-down because of this stage last year, due to Quintana - unforgivably - trying to win the race when Valverde was nailed on for second on GC. She would never forgive him, it was said.
 
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It proves his excuse was BS.



I'm saying that his excuse about Carthy was BS and that he only cared about the stage win not about Carthy because if Valverde, this year, the way he's riding is a threat to Carthy, then Carthy has no chance of finishing on the podium of this Vuelta.
I'm saying you're the most biased person I have ever seen on an online forum (and I've seen El_Pistolero) and that you're completely out of reason when discussing such matters.

Woods absolutely did what he was supposed to do today. Nobody will hold a grudge but you.
 
I'm saying you're the most biased person I have ever seen on an online forum (and I've seen El_Pistolero) and that you're completely out of reason when discussing such matters.

Woods absolutely did what he was supposed to do today. Nobody will hold a grudge but you.
His excuse is BS. If he had said he sat on because that was the only way he could win it would have at least been accurate. Either way he's a wheel sucker.

Movistar still holds a grudge against Sky/Ineos for what happened in 2012.
 
Valverde gained 54 secs on leaders— is that your definition of “barely won some”?
When you have more than 2 minutes over the peloton, with 2 teammates. With 4 other riders equally interested in coming back in the GC, 3 of them also with teammates.
And in the peloton, Ineos was losing units....
Yeah, barely won some seconds.
He attacked with 60 to go. Had Valverde kept the union in the group at least for 30 additional kms, the gains might have been bigger.
 
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When you have more than 2 minutes over the peloton, with 2 teammates. With 4 other riders equally interested in coming back in the GC, 3 of them also with teammates.
And in the peloton, Ineos was losing units....
Yeah, barely won some seconds.
He attacked with 60 to go. Had Valverde kept the union in the group at least for 30 additional kms, the gains might have been bigger.
The gains may or may not have been, but he'd have wasted a bit less energy in the process.
 
Bardet and Valverde did lot more work than Woods did in the 2018 Worlds. Woods is nothing more than a wheel sucker who can't win if works.
I just had a look back. Woods led all the way up the climb, and did the pace-setting to distance Dumoulin, Pinot, Alaphilippe etc. Valverde didn't come through until the summit, and put in several accelerations on the descent to try and get a gap on the other 2. This ultimately led to Dumoulin coming back on, and eventually Valverde had to accept that as the known best sprinter, it was up to him to make sure the sprint started before Moscon got back on too.
 
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Except that excuse is 100% BS. Valverde hasn't shown the ability to climb with the top GC riders at all this year INCLUDING in this Vuelta. Allowing him to take 2 minutes on this stage wouldn't have meant anything at all, esp with the energy he wasted on this stage.
Yeah, maybe Phonak, CSC T-mobile and co said the same about Pereiro in 2006. "Guy hasn't show ability to climb with the GC riders, so we can give him a free time". We all know what happened afterwards. Heck, even Mas was holding for dear life in the beginning of the Tour and finished 5th at the end. I can probably give you many more examples with riders getting better towards the end of the race. Truth is, you don't give a rider like Valverde free minute or 2 in the Vuelta. And Woods had absolutely zero interest of contributing with Valverde for 2 reasons:
  1. He would spent energy only to be most probably beaten in the line.
  2. He'd help 2nd last year to close the gap to his team mate.
 
I just had a look back. Woods led all the way up the climb, and did the pace-setting to distance Dumoulin, Pinot, Alaphilippe etc. Valverde didn't come through until the summit, and put in several accelerations on the descent to try and get a gap on the other 2. This ultimately led to Dumoulin coming back on, and eventually Valverde had to accept that as the known best sprinter, it was up to him to make sure the sprint started before Moscon got back on too.
That climb is one of those everyone was dong the same amount of work because there was no "draft". It was an everyone for them-self climb. Those attempted attacks on the desent were funny because Bardet and Valverde are much better descenders than Woods. Bardet and Valverde were working well together on the flat and Woods did skip several turns because he was sure he could beat Valverde in a sprint if he didn't work. He lost and now he's an even bigger wheel sucker than he was then. He will suffer payback. The ONLY reason Dumoulin got back is his a superior TTer.


Yeah, maybe Phonak, CSC T-mobile and co said the same about Pereiro in 2006. "Guy hasn't show ability to climb with the GC riders, so we can give him a free time". We all know what happened afterwards. Heck, even Mas was holding for dear life in the beginning of the Tour and finished 5th at the end. I can probably give you many more examples with riders getting better towards the end of the race. Truth is, you don't give a rider like Valverde free minute or 2 in the Vuelta. And Woods had absolutely zero interest of contributing with Valverde for 2 reasons:
  1. He would spent energy only to be most probably beaten in the line.
  2. He'd help 2nd last year to close the gap to his team mate.
Please tell us what Valverde has done all of this year to show he is even capable to staying with the top climbers at la Vuelta and that includes the first week of la Vuelta.

Your 2 points PROVE again he had no interest in helping Carthy just himself. Carthy very likely losses time tomorrow.

Mas has shown in the past that he can do a major turn around over the course of a 3 week race.

Valverde has always relied on his consistency which is there, but at a lower level. There is literally nothing this year OR in his past to say he can improve his level that much in any race.
 
Shitty stage from Valverde with many stupid attacks that prevented him from following Woods in the end. He could and should easily win this stage, but raced like some neo-pro on amphetamine that has to prove the point of being the part of WT team.

Deserved win by Woods who was simply more clever than most experienced rider in peloton, who wasted too much energy for pointless attacks.
 
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