Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2022, stage 16: Sanlúcar de Barrameda - Tomares, 189.4k

[ice&fire]

So a rider has a problem with 6k to go and doesn't do anything about until 2.9k to go... the uci should clarify this. Depending on your viewpoint it's either genius or a Abu Dhabi style disgrace.

If a rider has a problem at 6km to go and can stay with the group for more than 3km, he doesn't have a problem.

 

[Flurk1982]

Think it's quite obvious Evenepoel flatted before the 3km. He was pretty far back and considering that it's very generous he's put in the 8s group.

That said, this is the sort of privilege that generally happens to the race leader.

"Quite obvious that Evenepoel flatted before the 3km!?" I can't believe this comes from a moderator. Is his login been hacked?

 

[Danskebjerge]

Who said this didn't happen? the Jury passed him right i think they would look at the red jersey?

Also the videos are very clear that it is a flat (this is not even disputed, besides a few fanatics)

I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm saying that if the organizers want to prevent speculations, they find evidence that the rider had the right to use the 3 k rule or not.

 

[Izzyeviel]

"Quite obvious that Evenepoel flatted before the 3km!?" I can't believe this comes from a moderator. Is his login been hacked?

Well he ain't anywhere near the top 40-50 from around 5-4k out. Only top 30 finished within 8 seconds.

 

[Riek s]

Well he ain't anywhere near the top 40-50 from around 5-4k out. Only top 30 finished within 8 seconds.

Where you are 4k out doesn't matter regarding the 3k rule. It matters where you are at the 3k (or where you had the issue).
As said before 1km takes 1minute. You can go to the front and back in that time.

 

[Red Rick]

"Quite obvious that Evenepoel flatted before the 3km!?" I can't believe this comes from a moderator. Is his login been hacked?

Please use the report function so moderators can take a look at it

 

[zlev11]

You can see that it’s flat in the coverage Peacock showed when it first showed Evenepoel was raising his hand and the video from the fans view when he was standing there.

no you can't. i just watched it again three times. there is no clear evidence his rear wheel is flat.

 

[Bolder]

definitely, no issue with that, but the rules say that he then gets the"same finishing time of the rider or riders they were with at the time of the incident".

So this doesn't necessarily mean he gets the time of the favourites' group. If there was a split already, he would need to get the time of the group he was with instead. Can't say for sure if there was a split already when he first indicated his mechanical, but this picture shows Gugliemi (+2:37 in the end) going past him before he stopped, so I'd think it's fairly likely that he was not in the +8s group anymore.

I don't think there was much of a split ; but there's no definitive video. Vélonews says Roglic's attack came at 2.8 km, so if true, Remco could have been a few seconds back at worst. 8 seconds sounds fair to me, but for Roglic that's gotta be the hardest 8 seconds he has ever gained...

 

[Izzyeviel]

No, in fact it's neither. If that is what happened, it's simply a sensible tactical choice under the circumstances, one that I believe pretty much all his rivals would have also taken. Nothing genius about it. The fact that he could soft-pedal the final is an unfortunate byproduct of the rule, but slightly alleviated by the fact that probably had to dig pretty deep before that just to stay in the group.

Well thats the thing - if he's struggling to stay with the group, he's certainly not with the guys he got the same time for - the 8 second group.

I just think its a shame this race looks like it's going to be determined by luck over ability.

 

[Volderke]

Well he ain't anywhere near the top 40-50 from around 5-4k out. Only top 30 finished within 8 seconds.

well, that doesn't matter. He was in that group and the rule doesn't state anything about where in that group you have to be. Just like the last rider in any group gets the same time as the first, even if there are e.g. 30 seconds in between.

You are merely evaluating Remco's right to apply the 3K rule based on how the last 3K was raced, so your evaluation of the rule depends on the outcome, and that's not how it works.
A rule isn't (or shouldn't be) biased, and the application of that rule should not be influenced by any (un)desired outcome. You first apply the rule, and as a consequence, you get an outcome. Not the other way around. If you are applying rules based on outcomes, rules have no value.

 

[Flurk1982]

Well he ain't anywhere near the top 40-50 from around 5-4k out. Only top 30 finished within 8 seconds.

Where is the proof? He could still be in a group of 100 riders just before the climb started and rog attacked.

 

[LookProGoSlow]

What a happy thread

 

[HelloDolly]

Wouldnt the bike transponders identify where every riders is at each KM

Mind you I dont expect race judges to look at this data or even have access to it or even know how to read it

 

[HelloDolly]

It's entirely possible that the tire started to go down before the 3km mark, and he wisely waited until he was inside the effective neutral zone before signaling. That's actually smart racing and using the rules to your advantage. If that's the case, was it tied to Roglic's attack? I suppose it could be, but it wouldn't matter anyway ; worst case he loses only the boniseconds...

The thing is where he was at the 3km mark ...he was not in the second group ...he was further back if you look at the video

So the loss of 8 seconds is not correct imo

So Evenepol benefitted from the 3KM rule but was accredited to the wrong group ...

 

[Riek s]

The thing is where he was at the 3km mark ...he was not in the second group ...he was further back if you look at the video

So the loss of 8 seconds is not correct imo

So Evenepol benefitted from the 3KM rule but was accredited to the wrong group ...

there was only one group at that point in time, so what are you talking about?

 

[RobertCrawley]

Rog may be out. He looks severely injured

He looked like he had been punched and knocked out. He wasn't 100 percent sure where he was. It looked the crash was caused by just a moment of inattention and a touch of wheels. I know Rog came to the game late, but he needs to work on his bike handling so that it matches his power. Maybe get him in the cyclocross/mtb circuit over the winter -- something.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Good grief this thread went down hill quickly and mostly because people have no honor and no shame.

The purpose of the 3km rule was twofold. One, it was enacted to encourage riders to back off because many finishes can't handle 100+ riders bunch sprinting at the same time and second, the spirit of the rule was to avoid riders losing due to bad luck that happened at the end of the race whereas in the middle of the race a crash/mechanical/bathroom break the peloton will wait for the rider (read race leader or GC contender, Green Jerset, etc.) to catch up.

It's really weird how many people have no problem if Primoz were to win based on a mechanical and seem to think that if not for the flat that Remco wouldn't have finished within 8 seconds. Remco has literally been riding at the front of the race on every stage since the beginning. He even finished 14th on a sprint stage (Stage 2).

I'd never want a rider I liked to win because of a mechanical. It's ridiculous.

 

[HelloDolly]

there was only one group at that point in time, so what are you talking about?
[/Q

At the 3km point there are

there were riders falling off the back from the 6km point ..ie groups
So what are you talking about ?

 

[Jagartrott]

My (short) analysis:

• Evenepoel cannot have had the flat much before the 3 km mark if indeed it happened before: the speeds they were going and the cornering - you cannot do that with a half-flat tire, you'd have to stop very soon, or be distanced very soon
• Evenepoel said he felt the flat when he wanted to accelerate, i.e. at the bottom of the short climb; he ultimately stopped towards the end of the climb, which is about 400 m further; he could have easily lost plenty of time there, making it seem he was further back than he actually was; but actually, it doesn't matter much, because...
• The climb came at about 2.8 km to go, so it is quite reasonable that the peloton was still intact at that point; whether Evenepoel was last or first of that group doesn't matter, they'll give him the time of the main group, and the biggest (main) group ended 8 seconds behind Pedersen; the jury just followed procedure, and we could clearly see from the images his tire was indeed deflated

 

[Volderke]

I just think its a shame this race looks like it's going to be determined by luck over ability.

I would argue it's the other way around: if a race is determined by having a flat 2K from the finish, it has very little to do with ability.

 

[Riek s]

there were riders falling off the back from the 6km point ..ie groups
So what are you talking about ?

The post below yours describes it well.
and Also remco wasn't 'dropped' at the 6km point.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

My (short) analysis:

• Evenepoel cannot have had the flat much before the 3 km mark if indeed it happened before: the speeds they were going and the cornering - you cannot do that with a half-flat tire, you'd have to stop very soon, or be distanced very soon
• Evenepoel said he felt the flat when he wanted to accelerate, i.e. at the bottom of the short climb; he ultimately stopped towards the end of the climb, which is about 400 m further; he could have easily lost plenty of time there, making it seem he was further back than he actually was; but actually, it doesn't matter much, because...
• The climb came at about 2.8 km to go, so it is quite reasonable that the peloton was still intact at that point; whether Evenepoel was last or first of that group doesn't matter, they'll give him the time of the main group, and the biggest (main) group ended 8 seconds behind Pedersen; the jury just followed procedure, and we could clearly see from the images his tire was indeed deflated

This is a cogent post. It would be helpful if there were some facts filling in all of our conjecture. When did splits develop, where was Remco when, etc. But ultimately it doesn’t matter, as the jury has made a ruling and, without knowing the (assumed and unassumed) context, and without Roglic having crashed, this is the exact result you would expect if you knew Roglic attacked on the climb and finished in a small group of sprinters with all the other GC riders 8 seconds back.

 

[dicanio_michael]

So a rider has a problem with 6k to go and doesn't do anything about until 2.9k to go... the uci should clarify this. Depending on your viewpoint it's either genius or a Abu Dhabi style disgrace.

The rule was there for a long time already. So Roglic didnt earn much time and fans called the rule was a disgrace. What a sour.

 

[dicanio_michael]

Man all that work from Roglic for nothing, and even a crash at the end. If he had a tecnical he would be able to cruise to the finish and lose no time. Actually this should be a valid GC tactic, once you're over 3km just simulate a technical, drop a chain, something to that effect, and cruise to the finish. No danger of falling or anything. Don't know why all GC teams don't use it.

PS: Im not saying Remco faked it,, just in general it's a much safer option for GC riders to have a techical within the last 3km of a flat or flattish finish, rather than risk a crash. Sprinters are crazy and they don't care about their or other riders well-being much.

Everything GC teams did this. Thats why they were pushing until 3KM. And thats why there was this rule because the organizer didnt want GC involvement to complicate things for safety issuse.

Roglic was not playing the safe card because he wanted to gain time, but this was not the design of this sprinter stage.

 

[dicanio_michael]

Well isn't it luck that Remco rode 186.5km on a tire that suddenly deflated just past the 3km to go sign?

You win some, lose some. As it is this race could be decided by Roglic's accident - one that probably doesn't happen if he receives the 'Remco has a problem, you have a large gap & don't need the time bonus' message from his DS. Swings & roundabouts.

This happened all the time. Lol