Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2022, stage 16: Sanlúcar de Barrameda - Tomares, 189.4k

[Lequack]

Man all that work from Roglic for nothing, and even a crash at the end. If he had a tecnical he would be able to cruise to the finish and lose no time. Actually this should be a valid GC tactic, once you're over 3km just simulate a technical, drop a chain, something to that effect, and cruise to the finish. No danger of falling or anything. Don't know why all GC teams don't use it.

PS: Im not saying Remco faked it,, just in general it's a much safer option for GC riders to have a techical within the last 3km of a flat or flattish finish, rather than risk a crash. Sprinters are crazy and they don't care about their or other riders well-being much.

 

[Riek s]

No.

But the 3km rule as is is far from ideal, especially on finishes like today.

Hard to say, if you have a flat and loose over a minute just because the cars can't reach you, think that is hardly well deserved.

Don't know how to make a better rule that is fair in all circumstances. That is the thing with rules, they are blak/white.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The way I read the Remco thread is that virtually everyone including his biggest fans were wary of his ability to last three weeks or not ship big time over the past weekend.

The stage thread when he took the jersey was another thing entirely, though. That argument largely ran on proving a negative. Like, because the only GT he had done before could not be considered unrepresentative, you couldn't prove that he wouldn't keep this form for all three weeks, and therefore the only logical assumption to make was that he would, and therefore he was the champion elect already.

 

[Danskebjerge]

Could somebody please repeat what the "debate" is about? It's very confusing because of all the "noise".

Is it about Evenepoel possibly having the puncture before the 3 kilometer mark? And/or is it about which group he was in?

 

[red_flanders]

for the people that cant fathom that Remco (or anyone) would fake a flat: yes he only lost 8 seconds, but think about the effort Roglic is putting in compared to the effort Remco put in for the last 3k. he saved a ton of energy and got the same time as the group that only lost 8 seconds while he was basically just warming down. this sport and more importantly the business of this sport is extremely cutthroat. i still don't see a puncture in that video. to call it a "conspiracy theory" is straight up ignorant. I actually think it would be extremely intelligent of Remco and QS to try it, because like I said earlier there's basically no way to prove there wasn't something wrong with his bike.

If you have little or no evidence to support the claim, you're going to get push back. At least one would hope. Since it's not multiple people, yes, "Conspiracy Theory" is a bit off base, but whatever you want to call this accusation, it has just as little veracity as your average conspiracy theory. It's an evidence-free claim fueled by emotion and agenda. It can and should be dismissed without comment.

There would also need to be a motive for any of this nonsense to make sense. Do you really think Evenepoel would have lost such significant time on this stage that he'd put the entire Vuelta and his reputation at risk for this kind of absurd thing? Why would he lose time at all? Maybe some bonus seconds? He's been the strongest guy in the race and has done well on a finish just like this.

Faking it would be an EXTRAORDINARY action, and you would need COMPELLING evidence to make such a case. "I still don't see a puncture" falls...let's say...quite a bit short of compelling evidence.

 

[Riek s]

I think the only argument one can make is that his flat happened before the 3km point, but you can't prove that based on position in the group. You would need almost a side shot during that time to find out. On top of that the tire needs to be flat, not just slowly running empty. In the last case you would also need to prove the rider knew it was running empty and knowing it would be empty before the finish.

 

[Cagalitroso]

Could somebody please repeat what the "debate" is about? It's very confusing because of all the "noise".

Is it about Evenepoel possibly having the puncture before the 3 kilometer mark? And/or is it about which group he was in?

more probably than not remco had the puncture 5-6 km from the finish ; when he actually raised his hand he was 40 sec away at approx position 80-100; the 8 second cut reaches down to the 31st place; after that the other big cuts are 1 min and 2 min behind

 

[zlev11]

If you have little or no evidence to support the claim, you're going to get push back. At least one would hope. Since it's not multiple people, yes, "Conspiracy Theory" is a bit off base, but whatever you want to call this accusation, it has just as little veracity as your average conspiracy theory. It's an evidence-free claim fueled by emotion and agenda. It can and should be dismissed without comment.

There would also need to be a motive for any of this nonsense to make sense. Do you really think Evenepoel would have lost such significant time on this stage that he'd put the entire Vuelta and his reputation at risk for this kind of absurd thing? Why would he lose time at all? Maybe some bonus seconds? He's been the strongest guy in the race and has done well on a finish just like this.

Faking it would be an EXTRAORDINARY action, and you would need COMPELLING evidence to make such a case. "I still don't see a puncture" falls...let's say...quite a bit short of compelling evidence.

The motive is there, he was very far back and 2nd place was off the front, he was potentially blocked from following him, as evidenced by the only guys able to follow were sprinters that happened to be well positioned. Then he saved a bunch of energy noodling to the finish.

and I mean, the tire looks up to me. If he was really riding on it since 5km to go like some have surmised I would expect it to look a lot flatter. Even then, I don't think it's all that extraordinary. I'm sure this exact thing has happened before! It just very rarely happens that there is a finish like this with real attack points inside 3km to go with the 3km rule in effect. I wouldn't even hold it against him really, I think it was a smart move if he really did it.

 

[Cagalitroso]

I think the only argument one can make is that his flat happened before the 3km point, but you can't prove that based on position in the group. You would need almost a side shot during that time to find out. On top of that the tire needs to be flat, not just slowly running empty. In the last case you would also need to prove the rider knew it was running empty and knowing it would be empty before the finish.

that's all fine and dandy but then he should not be in the plus 8 seconds group ; positions 6th - 31

 

[kingjr]

more probably than not remco had the puncture 5-6 km from the finish ; when he actually raised his hand he was 40 seg away at approx position 80-100; the 8 second cut reaches down to the 31st place; after that the other big cuts are 1 min and 2 min behind

You don't know when he raised his hand for the first time.

 

[Red Rick]

Could somebody please repeat what the "debate" is about? It's very confusing because of all the "noise".

Is it about Evenepoel possibly having the puncture before the 3 kilometer mark? And/or is it about which group he was in?

What happened is the noise.

The real debate is if haters vs fanboys

 

[red_flanders]

The motive is there, he was very far back and 2nd place was off the front, he was potentially blocked from following him, as evidenced by the only guys able to follow were sprinters that happened to be well positioned. Then he saved a bunch of energy noodling to the finish.

and I mean, the tire looks up to me. If he was really riding on it since 5km to go like some have surmised I would expect it to look a lot flatter. Even then, I don't think it's all that extraordinary. I'm sure this exact thing has happened before! It just very rarely happens that there is a finish like this with real attack points inside 3km to go with the 3km rule in effect. I wouldn't even hold it against him really, I think it was a smart move if he really did it.

So he would have lost a few seconds. This is motivation for faking a flat? Even when we can see he obviously had a flat.

Apparently he's graduated from over-emotional neophyte to savvy veteran playing trickses on Roglič.

 

[Red Rick]

If you have little or no evidence to support the claim, you're going to get push back. At least one would hope. Since it's not multiple people, yes, "Conspiracy Theory" is a bit off base, but whatever you want to call this accusation, it has just as little veracity as your average conspiracy theory. It's an evidence-free claim fueled by emotion and agenda. It can and should be dismissed without comment.

There would also need to be a motive for any of this nonsense to make sense. Do you really think Evenepoel would have lost such significant time on this stage that he'd put the entire Vuelta and his reputation at risk for this kind of absurd thing? Why would he lose time at all? Maybe some bonus seconds? He's been the strongest guy in the race and has done well on a finish just like this.

Faking it would be an EXTRAORDINARY action, and you would need COMPELLING evidence to make such a case. "I still don't see a puncture" falls...let's say...quite a bit short of compelling evidence.

If you change bikes in the final 3km gaps like these are never called if you're the race leader there's no risk anyway.

It's hardly a conspiracy to say the flat would've likely been before the final 3km cause he was nowhere to be seen going into the climb and changed bikes where Roglic attacked like half a minute later.

 

[zlev11]

So he would have lost a few seconds. This is motivation for faking a flat? Even when we can see he obviously had a flat.

Apparently he's graduated from over-emotional neophyte to savvy veteran playing trickses on Roglič.

you can see the obvious flat in this photo? because i can't.

and if he gets gapped and ends up stuck 2 or 3 groups back (because he was WAY back in the group) he could've lost 30+ seconds. 36th place was 53 seconds behind today.

 

[Cagalitroso]

You don't know when he raised his hand for the first time.

for sure was within the last 3km right? ; 5 km away he was around 60th; 4km away he was not in the first 80; you are just grasping at straws here

https://twitter.com/x/status/1567202856955936769

View: https://twitter.com/albercampos_/status/1567202856955936769

 

[Bolder]

It's entirely possible that the tire started to go down before the 3km mark, and he wisely waited until he was inside the effective neutral zone before signaling. That's actually smart racing and using the rules to your advantage. If that's the case, was it tied to Roglic's attack? I suppose it could be, but it wouldn't matter anyway ; worst case he loses only the boniseconds...

 

[Zoophonic]

So he would have lost a few seconds. This is motivation for faking a flat? Even when we can see he obviously had a flat.

Apparently he's graduated from over-emotional neophyte to savvy veteran playing trickses on Roglič.

It may only have turned out to be a few seconds but the argument is also that unlike Roglic he was able to cruise in leisurely up the tough last part of the stage whereas Roglic had motored full gas up the ramp and expended huge energy. Fine margins.

 

[Oldermanish]

So he would have lost a few seconds. This is motivation for faking a flat? Even when we can see he obviously had a flat.

Apparently he's graduated from over-emotional neophyte to savvy veteran playing trickses on Roglič.

Whether he had a flat or not isn't visible by him standing next to his bike. He was close enough to the finish to take the 3km rule so there is not issue. That said; the officials need to see the bike where it is, not after it's been handled by the team car and serviced. If they had done that the debate would be settled by them. As a DS I would ask the car to stay where it is and have an official go to it. Period. This isn't a Cat 3 crit where there's nothing at stake.

 

[peterfin]

The funny thing about the discussion is that everybody knows that this race is a 'seconds game' for both riders in normal conditions but due to technical reasons (a puncture and a crash) we want to see the one have an an unfair advantage over the other. Lets just hope that Roglic injuries are not worse than Evenepoel's crash so we can still have a fair battle!

 

[Danskebjerge]

Whether he had a flat or not isn't visible by him standing next to his bike. He was close enough to the finish to take the 3km rule so there is not issue. That said; the officials need to see the bike where it is, not after it's been handled by the team car and serviced. If they had done that the debate would be settled by them. As a DS I would ask the car to stay where it is and have an official go to it. Period. This isn't a Cat 3 crit where there's nothing at stake.

Good point - if you take advantage of the 3 kilometer rule, you should be obliged to show the organizers why.

 

[Riek s]

for sure was within the last 3km right? ; 5 km away he was around 60th; 4km away he was not in the first 80; you are just grasping at straws here

https://twitter.com/x/status/1567202856955936769

View: https://twitter.com/albercampos_/status/1567202856955936769

Where do you get that first 80 positions? the show only showed 40ish cyclists at 4,2km, including those that will drop of.
Also a 1km is a long time (1minute @ 60km/h) to move a few places. in such a peleton, moving one rider moves you up 10 riders (since the spread over the lane). Also the reason why you can easily drop a few places.

 

[SHAD0W93]

for the people that cant fathom that Remco (or anyone) would fake a flat: yes he only lost 8 seconds, but think about the effort Roglic is putting in compared to the effort Remco put in for the last 3k. he saved a ton of energy and got the same time as the group that only lost 8 seconds while he was basically just warming down. this sport and more importantly the business of this sport is extremely cutthroat. i still don't see a puncture in that video. to call it a "conspiracy theory" is straight up ignorant. I actually think it would be extremely intelligent of Remco and QS to try it, because like I said earlier there's basically no way to prove there wasn't something wrong with his bike.

You can see that it’s flat in the coverage Peacock showed when it first showed Evenepoel was raising his hand and the video from the fans view when he was standing there.

 

[red_flanders]

If you change bikes in the final 3km gaps like these are never called if you're the race leader there's no risk anyway.

It's hardly a conspiracy to say the flat would've likely been before the final 3km cause he was nowhere to be seen going into the climb and changed bikes where Roglic attacked like half a minute later.

Asserting a conspiracy (not what happened here as I said) without evidence is a conspiracy theory. Asserting that something happened because it could have happened, is by definition an assertion without evidence.

 

[Escarabajo]

The peloton was complete but stretched until the moment Roglic attacked, so, if he was 30 places down with a flat tier and half the speed 40 seconds are nothing.

We have an expression in Denmark, I do not know if it is universal, but: "A thief thinks every man steals" - in this forum it can be translated to "every day cheaters thinks everyone ells cheats". No doubt that Evenepool was to far behind in the peleton and that he would have lost the 8 seconds anyway, but none of his previous actions in his short but impressive career suggest, that he wants to win by cheating/bending the rules - so why do you none talented "fans" have to accuse him of that?

The world is degrading every day...

Btw another impressive win for Mads, he has victories in every month since January - glad his manager last year told him, that he should be more serious...

"Cada ladrón juzga por su condición"
I think they have it in every language and is one of the most used and abused expressions in the universe!!

 

[Riek s]

Good point - if you take advantage of the 3 kilometer rule, you should be obliged to show the organizers why.

Who said this didn't happen? the Jury passed him right i think they would look at the red jersey?

Also the videos are very clear that it is a flat (this is not even disputed, besides a few fanatics)