Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2022, stage 20: Moralzarzal - Puerto de Navacerrada, 181.0k

[Red Rick]

Normally I wouldn't put Vingegaard in second either, but Hindley and the other monument winners didn't win much else either, and I do value a Tour GC, especially one as emphatic as Vingegaard's, over a string of second-tier wins and close calls at the biggest races.

Vingegaard over Hindley, Van Baarle, MvdP, Mohoric et al is a nobrainer. The hard part is where you put Pogacar for me, who himself is clearly ahead of Van Aert for obvious reasons. Think his 2nd place at the Tour is pretty difficult to rate. I do know that once upon a time 2nd place at the Tour and nothing else just won Velo d'Or.

Also for all the talk about Van Aert being dominant, he didn't even win nearly as often as Evenepoel or Pog.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Van Aert and Pogacar not having won any of the seven biggest races of the season so far opens things up for the rest.

This is really astonishing considering how dominant Pogacar was in the early spring and how versatile Van Aert is.

 

[Red Rick]

Think Evenepoel's peak climbing performances (Pico Jano, Les Praeres) are on par (or at least really close) with Pogacar and Vingegaard's, but he isn't as consistent yet, even barring the weaker third weekend. And he is still yet to prove he can climb with the best on HC stuff, although he hasn't had many chances to do so.

Vingegaard and Pogacar would get dropped by Jay Vine ofcourse.

I think on short climbs he may have a shot.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Remco bawling like a baby!

He reminds me of Jakob Ingebrigtsen a bit - both are very young and very talented, but they also have a lot of pressure on them. So it's nice to see when they can finally let some emotion out.

 

[KZD]

Remco won this Vuelta on both TTs for Mas. He is not even near Poga or Vin on the mountains.

Looking at his climbing performances in this Vuelta, I am almost sure that he would have been on the Tour podium, not in first place of course because Vingegård was unbeatable

 

[movingtarget]

Strange how Carapaz who was the GC leader was awful in the first week and then somehow won three stages.

He got a little lucky with some of those breaks. He was easily the most talented rider in all of them. You can blame the other teams for watching him go up the road knowing what he can do and they let him do it three times but the GC battle meant that he was no threat after dropping so much time and the stage win was secondary for some of the GC teams. It saved Ineos' race.........

 

[Big Doopie]

...The hard part is where you put Pogacar for me, who himself is clearly ahead of Van Aert for obvious reasons. Think his 2nd place at the Tour is pretty difficult to rate. I do know that once upon a time 2nd place at the Tour and nothing else just won Velo d'Or.

agreed. T-A and UAE of course.

but UAE tour is a bit weak considering he and his team literally target it and he competes against opponents who are nowhere near their best (and are just letting him win).

i couldn't resist... ;-)

 

[Sciatic]

No way. Remco is nowhere near Pog and Jonas. He lost time in high mountains. 1minute to Roglic and Mas in different stages. If it was agains Pog or Jonas, or even Hindley of Giro, it would be 2/3minutes quite easily.
If he continues to develop he may enter that 1st tier, but not now.

Here we go again . . .

 

[Sciatic]

Remco cannot even look at the camera. That's too adorable for words

There’s definitely been a lot (too much) pressure on him for a long time, so there’s bound to be a release at some point. Glad to see.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Vingegaard over Hindley, Van Baarle, MvdP, Mohoric et al is a nobrainer. The hard part is where you put Pogacar for me, who himself is clearly ahead of Van Aert for obvious reasons. Think his 2nd place at the Tour is pretty difficult to rate. I do know that once upon a time 2nd place at the Tour and nothing else just won Velo d'Or.

Also for all the talk about Van Aert being dominant, he didn't even win nearly as often as Evenepoel or Pog.

I wouldn't rate 2nd at the Tour much lower than Vuelta victory, considering the level of top2 guys there.

agreed. T-A and UAE of course.

but UAE tour is a bit weak considering he and his team literally target it and he competes against opponents who are nowhere near their best (and are just letting him win).

i couldn't resist... ;-)

And Strade Bianche plus great shows in other spring classics (despite no victory). To me it's Evenepoel ahead of Pogacar for now but the latter still can pass Remco with a great season end.

 

[Big Doopie]

remco likely to pocket 1300+ UCI points.

15 days in red = 300 pts.

then again, he could have just gone to quebec and won 500...

 

[Extinction]

Think Evenepoel's peak climbing performances (Pico Jano, Les Praeres) are on par (or at least really close) with Pogacar and Vingegaard's, but he isn't as consistent yet, even barring the weaker third weekend. And he is still yet to prove he can climb with the best on HC stuff, although he hasn't had many chances to do so.

However, considering his only decline in the mountains was after his hard fall, I'd be curious to know how he would have ridden without the crash. Based on his final week performances, I'd say he would given up little to no ground at all.

 

[Sciatic]

I wouldn't rate 2nd at the Tour much lower than Vuelta victory, considering the level of top2 guys there.



And Strade Bianche plus great shows in other spring classics (despite no victory). To me it's Evenepoel ahead of Pogacar for now but the latter still can pass Remco with a great season end.

I think if it’s still not clear among 3-4 riders after Lombardia, they should tell them all to show up at Paris-Tours and whomever finishes with the highest placing there gets the Velo d’Or. A match race of sorts. And maybe that could also help Paris-Tours regain Worldtour status

 

[Devil's Elbow]

We are missing one big thing in the Velo d'Or discussion, by the way - there's no separate women's category, and Van Vleuten is having an incredible season even by her standards. If there was ever a time for the first female winner, this is it.

 

[Red Rick]

I wouldn't rate 2nd at the Tour much lower than Vuelta victory, considering the level of top2 guys there.

That's where for me there's a distinct difference between level and achievement. If Evenepoel lines up at the Tour I don't think he can compete with Pogacar and Vingegaard. But I think his seasons results are sure as hell more desirable than Pogacars this season.

 

[Ari]

Looking at his climbing performances in this Vuelta, I am almost sure that he would have been on the Tour podium, not in first place of course because Vingegård was unbeatable

Lol really? This Vuelta had no mountain. No Bola del Mundo, Angliru, Covadonga. For the Remco blind fanboys i would love to see Mas, Mal, Roglic and even Almeida, on that stages with him. First categories with 5% and a long TT..
This was the Vuelta for the kids, specifically designed for Remco.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

That's where for me there's a distinct difference between level and achievement. If Evenepoel lines up at the Tour I don't think he can compete with Pogacar and Vingegaard. But I think his seasons results are sure as hell more desirable than Pogacars this season.

Sure, two big wins (a GT and monument) place him ahead of everyone, at least for now (there are still some big races left though).

 

[noob]

There’s definitely been a lot (too much) pressure on him for a long time, so there’s bound to be a release at some point. Glad to see.

Yes! Katharsis for him! I haven't even been a fan and still it reeks as one of the most beautiful cycling moments I've seen so far, because it's so "pure". Nothing extroverted about it.

 

[KZD]

Lol really? This Vuelta had no mountain. No Bola del Mundo, Angliru, Covadonga. For the Remco blind fanboys i would love to see Mas, Mal, Roglic and even Almeida, on that stages with him. First categories with 5% and a long TT..
This was the Vuelta for the kids, specifically designed for Remco.

Sierra Nevada was the highest finish in years, if you think that this Vuelta had no mountains then its surely not me that is the blind fanboy but more you that is blind hater...

 

[Riek s]

Lol really? This Vuelta had no mountain. No Bola del Mundo, Angliru, Covadonga. For the Remco blind fanboys i would love to see Mas, Mal, Roglic and even Almeida, on that stages with him. First categories with 5% and a long TT..
This was the Vuelta for the kids, specifically designed for Remco.

Vingegaard came in 46th in his vuelta
Pogacar 3rd.

So its clear what is harder

I already posted the power numbers comparison between remco/vingegaard/pog and they are all on the same level for the same duration. And for now that is the only way to compare them... and they are all on the same level according to their W/kg output. (which is a very good definition for possible climbing performance)

 

[Ari]

Sierra Nevada was the highest finish in years, if you think that this Vuelta had no mountains then its surely not me that is the blind fanboy...

Since when the highest finish means anything?
You can climb for 30km to reach 2000m or you can climb 10km. Which One is the most dificult?
You want to compare Angliru with Sierra Nevada?lol

 

[Red Rick]

Sierra Nevada was the highest finish in years, if you think that this Vuelta had no mountains then its surely not me that is the blind fanboy but more you that is blind hater...

Altitude isn't everything. Sierra Nevada did get a significant nerf.

I don't think Evenepoel is as good at the super long climbs as he is on the short ones. But the same does apply to Pogacar, albeit I think in a lesser extent.

 

[KZD]

Altitude isn't everything. Sierra Nevada did get a significant nerf.

I don't think Evenepoel is as good at the super long climbs as he is on the short ones. But the same does apply to Pogacar, albeit I think in a lesser extent.

I don't think that Remco is as good in 30 minutes plus climbing efforts than he is on the shorter climbs but Sierra Nevada is 19km at 8% so its clearly a very hard climb unlike what the user Ari described and Remco handled it well.

 

[Riek s]

Altitude isn't everything. Sierra Nevada did get a significant nerf.

I don't think Evenepoel is as good at the super long climbs as he is on the short ones. But the same does apply to Pogacar, albeit I think in a lesser extent.

Do we know?

REmco did 2 climbs longer than 40minutes.

Penas Blancas ~45min @ 6.19W/kg (Pog/ving columbier/portet @ 6W/kg, but different climb).
Sierra Nevada ~60min @ 5,7W/kg (comparable to ventoux of Pog & vingegaard) (ridden 3rd day after his crash and all by himself basically)

These are hardly conclusive to him being worse or for fact he is worse in long climbs.
You might argue performance over multiple climbs, but that is even more an unknown than a known fact.

 

[Red Rick]

I don't think that Remco is as good in 30 minutes plus climbing efforts than he is on the shorter climbs but Sierra Nevada is 19km at 8% so its clearly a very hard climb unlike what the user Ari described.

They changed the road to the top and took a 22km 6.9% route instead.

If they'd taken the originally intended road, I suspect he would've lost more time but still won the Vuelta comfortably. Would not have made a 2 minute difference. At the time I did think though it was very lucky timing Roglic had a bad day himself.