Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2023, stage 8: Dénia - Xorret de Catí, 165.0k

[Blanco]

Why would Remco even start sprinting if he thought stage win or bonis were already taken?

Now, that's a real question.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Congratulations to Primož Roglič for winning the sprint and to Sepp Kuss for taking the leaders jersey.

Was a great stage to watch. JV clearly interested in stage win, considering on how Gesink and others rode. Maybe we all expected a bit more action on the ultimate climb, still the stage as a whole and the sprint at the end was very nice. For a bit more action, on the ultimate climb, the selection made would need to be bigger. Here JV would need to sacrifice one of the three leaders. Instead Remco took over and others more or less happy with that. That resulted in an opportunity for a stage win for grabs and for some prestige.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Congratulations to Primož Roglič for winning the sprint and to Sepp Kuss for taking the leaders jersey.

Was a great stage to watch. JV clearly interested in stage win, considering on how Gesink and others rode. Maybe we all expected a bit more action on the ultimate climb, still the stage as a whole and the sprint at the end was very nice. For a bit more action, on the ultimate climb, the selection made would need to be bigger. Here JV would need to sacrifice one of the three leaders. Instead Remco took over and others more or less happy with that. That resulted in an opportunity for a stage win for grabs and for some prestige.

Vingo is in for the long game, if someone needs to pull hard all the way up the last climb of the first week then he is ok with that. In fact he may have learned just that lesson about 2 months ago.

 

[Carols]

Remco 1) either lost a sprint to Roglic or 2) he thought there were no bonus seconds in dispute.

1) is usual while
2) would be the public second brain fart he had in Vuelta;

Remco fans prefer to uphold #2 instead of #1 which is actually more humiliating for Bambi.

And blaming the DS is just lame.

I ate an entire bowl of popcorn just reading the back and forth. Reminds me of the Contador vs Froome wars. At least neither of them was a hot-headed prima donna like Remco and his faithful worshipers. The guy is a great Talent such a shame he's a jerk. Makes it very difficult to like him......

 

[houtdffan]

Cannot believe that KNUCKLEHEAD Horner said Remco should not have went to the front. He said Remco should only respond to attacks. You know, like he did on stage 6

If Remco listened to Horner, he'd have lost 60 seconds on this climb.

Glad Remco climbed the way he knows how to

 

[noob]

JV is testing all other competitors. Trying to make the stage as hard as possible and see who can follow when Vingegaard and Roglic attack at the last climb.

Basically the same tactic they do at the TDF. Keep making the race hard. With the assumption that Vingegaard/Roglic are best.

Ah yeah true. I guess in the giro they didn't have that confidence then.

 

[Big Doopie]

I ate an entire bowl of popcorn just reading the back and forth. Reminds me of the Contador vs Froome wars. At least neither of them was a hot-headed prima donna like Remco and his faithful worshipers. The guy is a great Talent such a shame he's a jerk. Makes it very difficult to like him......

contador? froome?

seriously?

well, thank god he's not a fraud. just another reason to enjoy his amazing success.

and he's always the underdog tx to people like you (suffering from RDS). always fun to pull for the underdog. i mean haters are pulling for JV or UAE to beat him!? LOL! Probably the same people who cried about the sky train for years. so you would rather a guy who hides in the wheels and is part of a team of three in the final 8 to beat the guy who is fighting all on his own against all odds!?

Ah, strong, the hate is, in some.

bwahahaha.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Ah yeah true. I guess in the giro they didn't have that confidence then.

You know there is still 2 weeks to go?

 

[Rob5091]

Vingegaard is not 100% and Remco set such a strong pace Jumbo could not attack - according to -
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...b-but-remco-was-super-strong-jonas-vingegaard
"As for his own performance on the stage, Vingegaard was honest about his performance. "I didn't feel good at all, I didn't have my best day," he admitted."
"We were planning to attack on the last climb, but Remco was super strong."

 

[Rob5091]

Bro wtf I completely missed Poels was in the stage 6 break and is no ahead of the GC favorites in GC.

Poels and Landa are still ahead of the GC favourites - shame both will lose like 30 minutes on the TT on Tuesday!

 

[IndianCyclist]

Ah yeah true. I guess in the giro they didn't have that confidence then.

The Giro was basically a mess, 2 down from covid and 1 due to a crash on the ve of the race so hasty replacements were not in good form.

 

[houtdffan]

Vingegaard is not 100% and Remco set such a strong pace Jumbo could not attack - according to -
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...b-but-remco-was-super-strong-jonas-vingegaard
"As for his own performance on the stage, Vingegaard was honest about his performance. "I didn't feel good at all, I didn't have my best day," he admitted."
"We were planning to attack on the last climb, but Remco was super strong."

more proof Horner has an IQ lower than a box of rocks

 

[Volderke]

Remco 1) either lost a sprint to Roglic or 2) he thought there were no bonus seconds in dispute.

1) is usual while
2) would be the public second brain fart he had in Vuelta;

Remco fans prefer to uphold #2 instead of #1 which is actually more humiliating for Bambi.

And blaming the DS is just lame.

Remco sprinted to beat Roglic, but he couldn't, whether he knew or didn't knew win or bonus is on the line. Oh, and I watched replay enough times to claim this.

It seems you both have a different version of what really happened, as it seems your crusade against Remco fanboys (those that make me practise facepalms as much as you, probably) clouds your judgement if the reality doesn't fit your narrative.
In your 'alternative reality',
1. Remco sprinted to the line and gave it his all. He even started the sprint 300m out with Roglic in his wheel (very smart move), sat down in the last curve because you go much faster by sprinting seated (more aero probably), and he tried his final trick in the last 25m by not pedalling (pedalling for the last 5K, towing his adversaries to the line, didn't work so he must have thought to try something totally different).
2. Remco is a very good actor. He started making faces in disbelief the moment he crossed the finish. After that, he kept acting, posing at the barrier, shaking his head. His interviews were oscar worthy. He should consider not 1-day or 1-week races, but Hollywood. Or in other words: Remco was straight out lying in the face of the fans and media. It's a dirty liar.

I take reality and I go from there. And my take is that he didn't knew, and I'm not going to discuss the possible alternative outcomes (winning or not if he knew), as that's totally irrelevant (Roglic won and that's it, and re-read all of my comments: I didn't even suggested, in any of them, that Remco 'would have won the stage if he knew' or something along these lines).

What I can say is Remco was stupid for not knowing what they were racing for at the line (rookie mistake? brainfart? not very professional?). His excuse (I didn't hear anything on the climb with the crowds) was actually very lame (and doesn't fit my narrative: I see Remco as a rider who should be aware of racing situations and there is really no good excuse why he wouldn't have known), e.g. they knew 10K before the climb that the breakaway was at less than a minute and thus would likely be caught. And even if there were riders on the road, if he didn't have communication, he couldn't have known how many were there, and he should always have approached the finish as if there were at least bonus seconds on the line.

 

[Oldermanish]

Whatever their goals, they couldn't come around Remco. He dictated the pace and had a gap of one bike on Roglic just before the top. Every time the gradients soared, he pushed them to the limit. Every time the gradient leveled off, he backed down a bit and even allowed attacks if they would come, but they didn't (those leveled off gradients were where Soler and Almeida came back). Don't tell me Roglic or Vingegaard could have done anything than hang on to the top and make the best of the finish.

I admire your insight into Remco's every effort. JV's whole point was and is; make Remco work. I won't tell you what the two JV guys could do as you've convinced yourself of something Remco didn't know. He set tempo at his max to discourage attacks. It apparently affected his tactical ability and when Roglic jumped....his legs couldn't go faster.
He lost that sprint. Any BS explanation that he gave it up is a youngster's excuse.
He's deeper in the defensive hot seat than before as he needs to put serious time into Kuss. Yes, Sepp Kuss. He's minutes behind him and the other contenders may not help him do that work.

 

[Volderke]

I admire your insight into Remco's every effort. JV's whole point was and is; make Remco work (1). I won't tell you what the two JV guys could do as you've convinced yourself of something Remco didn't know (2). He set tempo at his max (3) to discourage attacks. It apparently affected his tactical ability and when Roglic jumped....his legs couldn't go faster.
He lost that sprint (4). Any BS explanation that he gave it up is a youngster's excuse.
He's deeper in the defensive hot seat than before as he needs to put serious time into Kuss (5). Yes, Sepp Kuss. He's minutes behind him and the other contenders may not help him do that work.

1. Yes they made Remco work: their tactic was to use Kuss as bait, it's a luxury position for Jumbo to have 3 guys in GC and use their 'superdomestique' to entice the competition to chase. That worked, but not 100%: Remco was cool-headed enough to reel Kuss in slowly, in order not to face counter attacks before the end of the climb.
2. What the two JV guys could do... One of them (Vingegaard) already said in an interview "I didn't feel good at all, I didn't have my best day," ..."We were planning to attack on the last climb, but Remco was super strong." So there you have it, now you know it as well as you don't have to believe me (what do I know...). JV was quite happy, because if that climb was a kilometer longer, either Vingegaard (but for sure Kuss) could have been in trouble, and the JV tridente could have been reduced to 2.
3. He didn't set tempo at his max. He set max tempo on the +15% stretches to test his adversaries (and because you don't have draft / have to push hard anyway), but every time it levelled off, he slowed down a bit to recover (those were the times Soler could come back) and invite attacks which didn't come. So no, not at his max, with Soler as thermometer.
4. Yes he lost that sprint, but you know things I don't know, e.g. that Remco gave it his all. When Roglic jumped... He simply got to his wheel and didn't pedal in the last 25 meters. So his actions clearly match his words: he didn't full out sprint for the stage, he only positioned himself to avoid getting behind a gap. Again, there is no need to mix up the outcome of the stage with the intentions / tactics. The intentions (Remco stupid) should not be used as an excuse for the outcome (Remco losing), but it seems especially the Remco haters use it to stir up this (non-existing) discussion. It's getting tiring actually.
5. Sepp Kuss is a very realistic treat at 2.30. But the TT is coming, and taking back 1.30 is not impossible. If that doesn't happen and Kuss limits the damage, I will fully root for Kuss winning GC. He's a good friend of good friends and a very likeable, down-to-earth guy. More than Remco.

 

[samhocking]

This is a race with radios. When there are no radios that might be excusable, especially on a final climb where there isn't the opportunity for the team car to give that info it's one thing, but when you can just check that with the DS, falling for that trick reflects poorly on the victim more than the perpetrator.

Radios do not always work and radios cannot always be heard or moments in the race of full effort and focus means the brain does not always take note of what is said.. Remco had no team mates to ask. Easy for Jumbo they were never isolated so have 3x riders have the chance of a radio message being understood at the front of the race. In hilly terrain radios are pretty crap and the further back your team car the less reliable or audible the signal. It's not a computer game Libertine even though you comment thinking it must be it seems, which is just not respectful to the riders imo? If Remco believed there were still riders ahead there was no need for him to radio his DS to ask what he already thought he knew. All he needed to know and do was stay under 2 seconds from Jumbo at the line and he did that easily 3 on 1.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I admire your insight into Remco's every effort. JV's whole point was and is; make Remco work. I won't tell you what the two JV guys could do as you've convinced yourself of something Remco didn't know. He set tempo at his max to discourage attacks. It apparently affected his tactical ability and when Roglic jumped....his legs couldn't go faster.
He lost that sprint. Any BS explanation that he gave it up is a youngster's excuse.
He's deeper in the defensive hot seat than before as he needs to put serious time into Kuss. Yes, Sepp Kuss. He's minutes behind him and the other contenders may not help him do that work.

JV guys behind Remco were working hard as well as the tempo was strong and drafting on double digit ramp is neglible. In fact the tempo was strong enough that no guy behind even tried to attack (as Vingo explained). As for Kuss, yes it's a nice tactical advantage for JV. But the TT is an opportunity for Remco to put some serious time into him - we will see what is Kuss' position after it. His advantage may become very slim: counted in seconds instead of minutes.

 

[noob]

Remco just more than any other rider seems to fuel on an adrenaline to race, which makes him intoxicated so that he does stupid things in races. His adrenaline always spills over.

It's like he has a huge sign on his forehead saying DO NOT DISTURB! And if there's things in his way he's gonna be either furious or panic. He can't cope with it, because he's in that zone where he needs everything to go to his legs.

He just wants everything out of his way so he can ride the bike to that extreme furious hyper focus.

Post race he's still in that zone, can't reflect, will sound arrogant, but he's just still over fueled by that adrenaline.

I stick to what I have said for a year; he is similar to John McEnroe in this aspect.

(And yes probably high aq. )

Oh and yes in that zone he can very easily miss a radio message because his hyper focused over fueled brain filters it out momentarily.

 

[tobydawq]

pog is the best rider right now (how do you reconcile that one?) and exciting to boot - hard to warm to, however.

Yeah, a fun and charming person who also suffers legendary defeats in the Tour - really hard to warm to.

 

[RedheadDane]

Thomas has said Roglic and Jumbo have told him there's riders ahead, when there isn't so they get the bonus seconds. Hope that wasn't the case again today as I think that's a sh!tty way to win a stage personally.

Personally, I think it's a hillarious way to win a stage. Nothing wrong with a little bit of sneakyness.

 

[witeken]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1698043585994584443

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1698043585994584443


6.89 w/kg for remco. Good, but nothing out of this world.

Pogacar and vingegaard of the tour, are in another level.

1) Remco was (purposely, he said) toying with Kuss for half of the climb.
2) No one really attacked. Remco didn't even have his power meter. There's no indication Evenepoel ever went all out.
3) If you think 7W/kg is merely "good", then do you have an idea which riders they have beaten up this climb:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1697666542249374049

View: https://twitter.com/CyclingWatts/status/1697666542249374049

 

[Blanco]

1. Remco sprinted to the line and gave it his all. He even started the sprint 300m out with Roglic in his wheel (very smart move), sat down in the last curve because you go much faster by sprinting seated (more aero probably), and he tried his final trick in the last 25m by not pedalling (pedalling for the last 5K, towing his adversaries to the line, didn't work so he must have thought to try something totally different).

He started his sprint 300m out like in stage 3, only this time he had Roglic on his wheel, not Vingegaard. But the boy probably think he's the fastest so it doesn't matter who he has on his wheel. One more lesson to learn I guess...
He sat down in that curve for a little, cause naturally it is hard stand on the pedals for the whole 300m sprint uphill. Ayuso sat a little as well, or maybe he also didn't knew it was for the win?
He stopped pedalling when it was eveident to him that he won't pass Roglic. Ayuso did that as well, again probably not knowing it is for the win, and even Roglic stopped pedalling in the last meters.
In my opinion he gave his all, knowing or not knowing...

 

[Andy schleck]

1) Remco was (purposely, he said) toying with Kuss for half of the climb.
2) No one really attacked. Remco didn't even have his power meter. There's no indication Evenepoel ever went all out.
3) If you think 7W/kg is merely "good", then do you have an idea which riders they have beaten up this climb:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1697666542249374049

View: https://twitter.com/CyclingWatts/status/1697666542249374049

Not even 7 w/kg. It was not bad, but very far from the aliens of the tour.

 

[Oldermanish]

1. Yes they made Remco work: their tactic was to use Kuss as bait, it's a luxury position for Jumbo to have 3 guys in GC and use their 'superdomestique' to entice the competition to chase. That worked, but not 100%: Remco was cool-headed enough to reel Kuss in slowly, in order not to face counter attacks before the end of the climb.
2. What the two JV guys could do... One of them (Vingegaard) already said in an interview "I didn't feel good at all, I didn't have my best day," ..."We were planning to attack on the last climb, but Remco was super strong." So there you have it, now you know it as well as you don't have to believe me (what do I know...). JV was quite happy, because if that climb was a kilometer longer, either Vingegaard (but for sure Kuss) could have been in trouble, and the JV tridente could have been reduced to 2.
3. He didn't set tempo at his max. He set max tempo on the +15% stretches to test his adversaries (and because you don't have draft / have to push hard anyway), but every time it levelled off, he slowed down a bit to recover (those were the times Soler could come back) and invite attacks which didn't come. So no, not at his max, with Soler as thermometer.
4. Yes he lost that sprint, but you know things I don't know, e.g. that Remco gave it his all. When Roglic jumped... He simply got to his wheel and didn't pedal in the last 25 meters. So his actions clearly match his words: he didn't full out sprint for the stage, he only positioned himself to avoid getting behind a gap. Again, there is no need to mix up the outcome of the stage with the intentions / tactics. The intentions (Remco stupid) should not be used as an excuse for the outcome (Remco losing), but it seems especially the Remco haters use it to stir up this (non-existing) discussion. It's getting tiring actually.
5. Sepp Kuss is a very realistic treat at 2.30. But the TT is coming, and taking back 1.30 is not impossible. If that doesn't happen and Kuss limits the damage, I will fully root for Kuss winning GC. He's a good friend of good friends and a very likeable, down-to-earth guy. More than Remco.

Per 4.: I watched that again today and Remco never stopped aggression. His attack out of the saddle got to the momentum that he sat down to sustain his pace. He couldn't increase it further and Roglic clearly could.
I'm a fan of Remco but not so much about his excuses and b*tching. He had made great strides as a rider and adult this year but his response to stress in front of reporters at this race hasn't been supporting that trend.
Don't get tired...the discussion is worthwhile.