Well done with the pro teams

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Vacansoleil is not really the questionable decision for me. They have shown that they can exist, that they are too good for the ProContinental competition and that they want to make progress. So they get a ProTour ticket, fair enough.

The point is that cycling is a passion of countries in Europe, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium and the Netherlands most notably, countries which in general lack the money (with exceptions of course, Rabobank is doing a great job for years moneywise, although the team itself is chronically underperforming) to finance the teams compared to some US guy who likes to see his name on the shirts of some random guys in the Tour de France.

We still had some teams which, stretching themselves to the limit, could maintain themselves on the highest level (I think of Euskaltel, Cofidis, FdJ most notably) but now the latter two have gone.

And what if next year Procter and Gamble and Warren Buffett think its fun to participate in this cycling game? They will probably buy Fuglsang, LL Sanchez and King and the UCI jump with joy because they are globalizing. And who needs Euskaltel and AG2R anyway, stupid teams of the past with no guy pursuing a top-7 place for 10 million bucks. Now Euskaltel can still compete because Sanchez loves the team and the vision so much that he wants to stay for a low salary compared to what he could earn at another team. Now Romain Sicard signed for 4 years because he thinks it is best for him. But what if next year Branson is desperate to get a star and decides to throw in a ****load of money? Are we more happy then? And we cannot blame the individual cyclist for making that decision.

And then, in 4 years, when the fun is gone and field hockey is the new way to go, they will leave cycling behind in a state you won't like to imagine. The way Cervelo left is a first sign of that. Compare the attitude of a hyped team like Cervelo with a team like Footon - Servetto. They were desperate, but kept believing, and finally they found a way out because they loved the sport. And now what? Nothing for them. Next time they won't make the effort anymore, and I can't blame them for that.

You know, a characteristic of those new teams it that the team is centered around the star(s) instead of the stars joining the team. The latter is way more healthy as you will understand, as it takes the perspective of giving 25 riders the chance to participate in the biggest cycling events because the team thinks its good. The only goal of the star centered team is to participate in the biggest races to show their star and get him a position in GC or whatever it is that no-one cares about but some statisticians.

Ultimately the question is if we want more big, star-centered teams or more teams with a vision to give stars a chance. UCI is clearly choosing for the former, and that is a major risk in the medium term.

Because in 4 years, or 10 years, field hockey is the new hype and cycling is left behind, and then we won't have Cofidis anymore, then Euskaltel is pushed away by some money, then we will make a big, big step backwards.

And don't get me started on the way the star-centered teams ride. LS did that already and he's better in stating everything than me.

Luckily, and I am so grateful for that and I will keep saying that, we still have the ASO and RCS, organizations who understand that, even when they are commercial, money isn't everything and that they need teams with young talent, with desire to race and to animate, and who understand that they need the passionate Basque supporters in the Pyrenees and the French on the side of the road. Luckily those organizations are strong enough and have enough willpower to oppose the UCI consistently, as they know the UCI isn't fair, both on this ground and on some others (only think about doping wars between the two organizations). If cycling survives, and I believe it will, it is thanks to them and the traditional teams and not thanks to UCI globalization.

Extra note as I may seem to be extremely conservative: I ain't afraid of new teams. A team like Garmin is value added, even though it is from the evil USA ;) But that team is not centered around a leader, but around a vision and an idea, and that is exactly my point.
 
Don't think people should be that upset with BMC, they scraped in on points (didn't they?), they have the money, the have big name owners/managers and are in for the long haul. They were going to be PT sooner or later, remember Sky got a license without any racing, as have Lux and Radioshack... This decision shouldn't come as a surprise at all.

FdJ, BMC, Geox, Euskaltel and Vacansoleil were probably fighting for three spots and you can pick holes in all of them. I think FdJ is the bigger disappointment than Geox.
 
Ferminal said:
Don't think people should be that upset with BMC, they scraped in on points (didn't they?), they have the money, the have big name owners/managers and are in for the long haul. They were going to be PT sooner or later, remember Sky got a license without any racing, as have Lux and Radioshack... This decision shouldn't come as a surprise at all.

FdJ, BMC, Geox, Euskaltel and Vacansoleil were probably fighting for three spots and you can pick holes in all of them. I think FdJ is the bigger disappointment than Geox.

+1 agree Ferminal but maybe FDJ riding Pro/Conti will be a blessing in disguise...They should rack up some decent wins next year.
 
Ideally, the best 18 teams from the previous year would automatically get ProTour status each year.

New teams would never start as ProTour, but would have to earn their slot by doing very well as a ProConti team. Buying in a rider wouldn't get you his points for the previous year either.

The thing is though that cycling teams, with a few notable exceptions, have neither longevity nor stability. They exist at the whim of sponsors, are named after sponsors and change their names with the sponsors. Cycling fans overwhelmingly follow particular riders rather than particular teams, and move whatever affection they have for a team with the riders who inspired that affection.

Sponsorship is important in almost any sport, but most high profile team sports have team structures that are more stable and better rooted than those in cycling. The teams have more of an existence outside the whims of the sponsors and have a following of their own, outside of the popularity of their current players.

The weak nature of cycling teams is deeply rooted in the history of the sport. Pro cycling was in large part about advertising from the start. It also reflects the inability of cycling teams to raise revenue through the most stable and in most cases most important means available to most sports teams - ticket sales. Sponsorship has to fill that gap.

The lack of a system for choosing top flight teams based straightforwardly on sporting success is a recognition of that reality by the UCI. The teams don't really matter to the UCI in their own right. They only matter for the particular cyclists they contain at any one time and the money they bring.

So we get systems which recognise the current roster's recent success rather than the teams success, and which lay heavy emphasis on the money involved.

As it happens, I don't think it actually worked out that badly this year. The only teams that deserved to make it in sporting terms but was excluded is Androni.
 
TeamSkyFans said:
Disagree, geox deserved a spot with sastre and menchov, vacon on the other hand somehow passed the ethical exam with ricco, bmc have evans and erm... who else (dont say phinney hes too young), and quickstep outside of 2 races a year are pointless.

I would have had geox ahead of vacon, bmc, and quickstep.

Geox has two riders and nothing else whatsoever. BMC, Vacansoleil and I guess even Quick Step have greater depth in my opinion. Geox has some young talents but so does most teams and until talents deliver they are not a selling point.
 
The Hitch said:
So are Vacan guaranteed gts?

I think that's still to be decided. The UCI and ASO had agreed on a desicion that had PT teams in all top events including GTs but Zomegnan had not been part of that desicion and he instead claims that the old desicion should still count. The final word has not been said yet as far as I know.
 
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BMC clearly deserve a license. All you haters out there go have a sook. People really don't care about a team who only goes in breakaway's. On the point about RSH and BMC possibly folding, you can't say we are not going to give a team a license because of an investigation which they have not been convicted of which may result in folding. many teams have got license and have not even raced! How is that fair? BMC have properly built there team and have many young riders who will improve next year.
 
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luckyboy said:
They'll be at the Giro and Vuelta (if Mosq gets off) at least.

Even without Mosq, doesn't the top 15 teams automatically get a start in the GT's for next year?

UCI is just soooooo confusing.

Geox are unlucky but I think they will go to the races they want to go to anyway.
 
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TeamSkyFans said:
Disagree, geox deserved a spot with sastre and menchov, vacon on the other hand somehow passed the ethical exam with ricco, bmc have evans and erm... who else (dont say phinney hes too young), and quickstep outside of 2 races a year are pointless.

I would have had geox ahead of vacon, bmc, and quickstep.
Who do Sky have? Erm Boasson Hagen? Same arguement

Dekker_Tifosi said:
Dude you lost your argument by saying dumb **** like that. Just stop it.

If Vacansoleil have 'bought their way in', then what the hell have BMC, Sky etc been doing? :rolleyes:

Sod off
You are soooooo wrong! Don't compare Sky's buying in with BMC's buying. BMC started as a very small american team and has slowly been building (like Fly V). Sky just bought a whole team and jumped straight into the PT
ingsve said:
Geox has two riders and nothing else whatsoever. BMC, Vacansoleil and I guess even Quick Step have greater depth in my opinion. Geox has some young talents but so does most teams and until talents deliver they are not a selling point.

Agreed!
 
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ingsve said:
Geox has two riders and nothing else whatsoever. BMC, Vacansoleil and I guess even Quick Step have greater depth in my opinion. Geox has some young talents but so does most teams and until talents deliver they are not a selling point.

Rafael Valls Ferri
Juan Jose Cobo
David De La Fuente
Fabio Felline
Fabio Andres Duarte
David Blanco Rodriguez
Mauricio Alberto Ardila

= nothing else?

Compare this with the depth of Euskaltel.
 
auscyclefan94 said:
BMC clearly deserve a license. All you haters out there go have a sook. People really don't care about a team who only goes in breakaway's. On the point about RSH and BMC possibly folding, you can't say we are not going to give a team a license because of an investigation which they have not been convicted of which may result in folding. many teams have got license and have not even raced! How is that fair? BMC have properly built there team and have many young riders who will improve next year.

they dont deserve a license, other than evans the squad is very weak - without evans in the giro or vuelta the team wont even be visable
 
auscyclefan94 said:
You are soooooo wrong! Don't compare Sky's buying in with BMC's buying. BMC started as a very small american team and has slowly been building (like Fly V). Sky just bought a whole team and jumped straight into the PT
BMC started as a small American team, and then last year they were a small American team plus Evans. They definitely bought their way into the major races, no matter how you put it.
 
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I like the debate over whether BMC deserve their place in ProTour. They earned the right in 2010. They used their invitations well. Pegasus needs to do the same win early and make it happen. TDU is set up for sprinters, let see if Robbie can win against Gripel and Cav.

Maybe they should only have one year licence and select the best scoring 18 teams and wait for natural attrition.
 

Barrus

BANNED
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I am still of the opinion the Luxembourg team should not have gotten a protour license, nor should Sky and Radioshack last year have gotten such a license. I am of the firm opinion that such licences should not be giving to brand new team, let them first prove their worth and longevity.
 
It is not really possible to debate the PT team selection based upon ability,(points) since that is only third on Pat's list of made up criteria.
This "method" is driven by commercial and political interests.

As for the ethical input Pat talked about, anybody figure out how that was factored into his magical equation? :rolleyes:

Geox and Gianetti are quite understandable miffed.
Still, his fault.
I am sure he would have got a licence if he had bought a bunch of over-the hill classics men, rather than riders who can ably support his GT champion duo, :eek:
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Whoa whoa whoa. Riccò brought plenty of UCI points to the table. Under the old system he brought 0, but under the new system, lots - he won 2 stages and the GC of the Tour of Austria, 2 stages of the Settimana Lombarda, top scores in plenty of .HC and .1 rated Italian races.

Really? I'm sorry. I thought it still operated under the old system. My bad.
 
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Well, we have 18 PT teams. But I still can't recognize if PT status guarantee participation in races from HIS-calendar :confused: If it's true, only 4 Grand Tour invitations remain (7 wild cards for other HIS races). It means that Tour de France teamlist is completed: 18 PT teams + FDJ + Europcar (BBox) + Cofidis + Geox and we'll hear Saurs indignation again. But what's about Giro and Vuelta? Whether PT teams would be able to refuse their invitation like Euskadi did at Giro 09,10? Because as an example I really don't know what startlist can Team Evans put in for italian grand tour?
 
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Kvinto said:
Well, we have 18 PT teams. But I still can't recognize if PT status guarantee participation in races from HIS-calendar :confused: If it's true, only 4 Grand Tour invitations remain (7 wild cards for other HIS races). It means that Tour de France teamlist is completed: 18 PT teams + FDJ + Europcar (BBox) + Cofidis + Geox and we'll hear Saurs indignation again. But what's about Giro and Vuelta? Whether PT teams would be able to refuse their invitation like Euskadi did at Giro 09,10? Because as an example I really don't know what startlist can Team Evans put in for italian grand tour?
Team Evans is going with Alexander Kristoff

IlCobraFan said:
Rafael Valls Ferri
Juan Jose Cobo
David De La Fuente
Fabio Felline
Fabio Andres Duarte
David Blanco Rodriguez
Mauricio Alberto Ardila

= nothing else?

Compare this with the depth of Euskaltel.
I would hardly call that depth...
therealtimshady said:
they dont deserve a license, other than evans the squad is very weak - without evans in the giro or vuelta the team wont even be visable
evans will be riding the vuelta. He has said so... We will see who is visible!

theyoungest said:
BMC started as a small American team, and then last year they were a small American team plus Evans. They definitely bought their way into the major races, no matter how you put it.

You are still very wrong. Last year they did not have evans.

So recruiting riders is not allowed and paying them money is not allowed? May I remind you that evans is not getting near the salary that he would have at Lotto.

Sky, Team Lux and Radioshack have bought their way into races as they bought a whole team of riders and got straight into the PT. That is what stinks about the PT qualifying not BMC. Totally disregards a team built from scratch.
 
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auscyclefan94 said:
Team Evans is going with Alexander Kristoff

For most mountainous GT with just 2 sprint stages (as Petacchi counted)? Good luck! :)
Edit: But it's interesting what Kristoff will be able to do at SanRemo?
 
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Kvinto said:
For most mountainous GT with just 2 sprint stages (as Petacchi counted)? Good luck! :)

I would say there are 6 sprinter stages especially with a guy like kristoff. BMC are not going in with any overall aspirations. Therefore I think they will go for stage wins with kristoff and then in all the breakaways.

EDIT: Should make the finish and if he has the form and race condition then he should be up there. Was 4th in vattenfall this year and came from a long way back. The guy is a very big prospect.
 
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auscyclefan94 said:
I would say there are 6 sprinter stages especially with a guy like kristoff. BMC are not going in with any overall aspirations. Therefore I think they will go for stage wins with kristoff and then in all the breakaways.

Yea, Krisoff maybe is the better climber than AleJet but, if i'm not mistaken, the last sprint stage is 12 and then he'll surely withdraw. I can predict Kristoff at SanRemo even top-5 but don't think it's good idea for him to ride Giro...