Well done with the pro teams

[Mambo95]

RS's license should be withdrawn, even though that seems unrealistic, but come on, what has Radioshack done?????

They won Pais Vasco and the Dauphine, which is more than a lot of teams.

 

[fatandfast]

****ed at Geox's rejection.
RS's license should be withdrawn, even though that seems unrealistic, but come on, what has Radioshack done?????
How many seasons wins did they have?
I was really hoping to see Geox in action next year. And now with only Ag2r in ProTour, it will be harder for Geox to get an invitation for the Tour.

Didn't Radio Shack have a stage win and a guy in the GC top 10? or was that Fuji

 

[Kvinto]

Well, I think Kristoff would have gotten a GT start this year even if their overall squad had been stronger than it is. BMC believes in Kristoff and they probably see him as a future contender for GT stages so they would need to school him in GTs sooner or later anyway.

You didn't understand the meaning of what I wrote. It's not about Kristoff but about his leadership as the result of lack of strong BMC team at 2011 Giro. I'm not against his participation in Giro and i'm sure that sooner or later he'll become a contender for top GT sprints. But I feel sorry for the team that maybe could objective Giro as the one of the main goals but will not gain the invitation because there will be no vacancy left
Edit: if all 18 PT teams gain invitation + Androni and Farnese Vini assured of Giro 2011 there will be 2 invitations left for 2 tems of Geox (Sastre), Colnago (Pozzovivo) and Acqua Sapone (Garzelli)

 

[Rocksteady]

****ed at Geox's rejection.
RS's license should be withdrawn, even though that seems unrealistic, but come on, what has Radioshack done?????
How many seasons wins did they have?
I was really hoping to see Geox in action next year. And now with only Ag2r in ProTour, it will be harder for Geox to get an invitation for the Tour.

Umm. RadioShack isn't my favorite team but they did win stuff this year.

Dauphine was won by Brajkovic who will probably get some a GT leadership this year.
Tour of the Basque country was won by Horner
Top Ten in the tour
2nd in tour de Suisse
3rd in Tour of Lux
3rd and 4th in TOC
This isn't counting stage wins. Its true, they are a stage racing team only (we will see if Steegmans does anything in 2011) but they did have results.

 

[IlCobraFan]

Yes, none of those riders are a selling point .

If none of Team Geox riders are a selling point without Menchov and Sastre, can you please tell me what riders that are the selling point of BMC without Evans?

Phinney, Hincapie, Kroon ?

 

[Mambo95]

If none of Team Geox riders are a selling point without Menchov and Sastre, can you please tell me what riders that are the selling point of BMC without Evans?

Phinney, Hincapie, Kroon ?

Ballan, Burghardt, Morabito. They've all had good results. Van Avermaet and Quinziato are decent.

 

[Mondrian]

For me Giro has always had more entertainment value than the Tour so I am 100% sure they will not leave the most exciting climber in the world who also happens to be Italian out of the race. Given how boring the Tour was last year and how reluctant anyone was to attack the contador/schleck due TdF may well take Giro's lead on this. I guess they were all waiting to see what teams form the top 18 before making a decision.

It is odd that UCI did not release the selection criteria for 2011 before the 2010 season started and is still keeping the selection system secret! - its like playing football without knowing the rules of the game - how can you win?

Only logical conclusion can be that it is either decided on official/un official payments to UCI (or its staff) or selection is made based on unwritten criteria (image of sport, future of sport, what managers they like/dislike etc) either way the only reason not to provide the teams with prior details of the selection criteria is that they wanted to reverse engineer the formulae based on teams they wanted to select. So they would pick their 18 teams and then ask the mathematicians to come up with a formulae. UCI is not the pentagon or a private company its an organization, one which is supposed to be a representative of the cyclists, fans, teams etc so why lack of transparency?

 

[Mondrian]

If none of Team Geox riders are a selling point without Menchov and Sastre, can you please tell me what riders that are the selling point of BMC without Evans?

Phinney, Hincapie, Kroon ?

Problem with teams such as BMC & Cervelo is that they are there to sell bikes, that's the extent of their vision - there is no apparent harmony in the team. It always starts with a big name or two and then some fillers are thrown in for good measure to make up the numbers and that's why they have a short life-span.

As someone mentioned earlier I think it would be a good idea to give the team 1/2 the points its riders earn and account for 2 years points gained by a team for protour status - that way a new team will have to operate for 2 years at continental pro level before being able to mature into a proteam as well as providing existing continental pro teams a chance to grow into a proteam - it will also add some weight to a teams status by removing some of the cyclists power (points), afterall he did earn those points while paid and supported by the team.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Really? I'm sorry. I thought it still operated under the old system. My bad.

Doesn't really matter anyway, the way Vacansoleil completely dominated the Continental Team rankings this year they should be in no matter what anyway

They completely deserved it by their own results

 

[IlCobraFan]

BMC, Vacansoleil and I guess even Quick Step have greater depth in my opinion.

2010 CQ Ranking Points

BMC (without Evans) riders: 3424 points
Geox (without Menchov) riders: 3547 points

Can you argue against facts?

 

[Mambo95]

2010 CQ Ranking Points

BMC (without Evans) riders: 3424 points
Geox (without Menchov) riders: 3547 points

Can you argue against facts?

Yes, you can. BMC were riding for Evans in the big races. Geox/Fuji weren't riding for Menchov.

 

[IlCobraFan]

Yes, you can. BMC were riding for Evans in the big races. Geox/Fuji weren't riding for Menchov.

Riding for Evans? If you watched the Giro d'Italia you could easily see that Evans was isolated and got no help. 4 out of 8 helpers couldn't even finish the race!

 

[ingsve]

You didn't understand the meaning of what I wrote. It's not about Kristoff but about his leadership as the result of lack of strong BMC team at 2011 Giro. I'm not against his participation in Giro and i'm sure that sooner or later he'll become a contender for top GT sprints. But I feel sorry for the team that maybe could objective Giro as the one of the main goals but will not gain the invitation because there will be no vacancy left
Edit: if all 18 PT teams gain invitation + Androni and Farnese Vini assured of Giro 2011 there will be 2 invitations left for 2 tems of Geox (Sastre), Colnago (Pozzovivo) and Acqua Sapone (Garzelli)

I didn't adress that part because we don't know what BMCs plan is for the giro. All we know is that it is part of Kristoffs race plan but that's it. BMC has not said "Kristoff will be our leader for the Giro" or anything close to that. What we do know is that Evans wants to target the Vuelta instead of the Giro next year. Other than that it's all speculation.

 

[ingsve]

If none of Team Geox riders are a selling point without Menchov and Sastre, can you please tell me what riders that are the selling point of BMC without Evans?

Phinney, Hincapie, Kroon ?

Ballan, Kroon, Hincapie, Burghardt, Van Avermaet, Quinziato are all well established top riders and are well above what anyone except the leaders at Geox has. On top of that they also have Moinard, Santaromita, Tschopp, Morabito, Santambroggio and Kristoff etc who are at least equal to the Geox bunch.

I can grant that some of the BMC guys are on the decline while the Geox guys like Duarte, Duran, Felline etc are on the rise but the PT licenses are not handed out based on speculation about what you can do in the future but on what you actually have done already in the past and based on that then BMC has more established riders than Geox.

 

[Mambo95]

Riding for Evans? If you watched the Giro d'Italia you could easily see that Evans was isolated and got no help. 4 out of 8 helpers couldn't even finish the race!

There's more to teamwork than being in the final selection on mountain stages. You probably also think that Bert Grabsch does nothing for HTC because he finishes five minutes down on the flat stages.

 

[ingsve]

2010 CQ Ranking Points

BMC (without Evans) riders: 3424 points
Geox (without Menchov) riders: 3547 points

Can you argue against facts?

You forgot to remove Sastre as well. The argument is that Geox is fairly weak without their two leaders not just Menchov.

Also I would look at the stats for the last two years and bot just this year since that's what the ranking is based on.

 

[ingsve]

2010 CQ Ranking Points

BMC (without Evans) riders: 3424 points
Geox (without Menchov) riders: 3547 points

Can you argue against facts?

Ok, I looked at the numbers and I don't know where you got your stats from.

Geox 2011 (without Menchov, with Sastre): 2010: 3728 2009: 3350 total: 7078
BMC 2011 (without Evans): 2010: 4678 2009: 4873 total: 9551

I think it's pretty clear that BMC has greater depth than Geox and if you go back even further years it would only get clearer.

 

[Mellow Velo]

2010 CQ Ranking Points

BMC (without Evans) riders: 3424 points
Geox (without Menchov) riders: 3547 points

Can you argue against facts?

Yes, you can. BMC were riding for Evans in the big races. Geox/Fuji weren't riding for Menchov.

Put it another way.
Had BMC not had Evans to ride for, (even though his Giro squad was reported as missing in Holland) who would have scored points for them, as team leader?

The fact that ingsve also wants Sastre removed from this new equation, is an argument for Geox in itself.

I ask again.
Why, with Evans needing specialist support, did BMC go out and buy in more classics riders and breakaway specialists?

As for the Radio Shack licence, I would have thought the fact that JB is currently under international investigation, sufficient to make it "probationary", at least.
If this isn't sorted by Spring, I can see the ASO/RCS/Unipublic triumvirate ignoring the UCI doctrine and closing the door on them.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Ok, I looked at the numbers and I don't know where you got your stats from.

Geox 2011 (without Menchov, with Sastre): 2010: 3728 2009: 3350 total: 7078
BMC 2011 (without Evans): 2010: 4678 2009: 4873 total: 9551

I think it's pretty clear that BMC has greater depth than Geox and if you go back even further years it would only get clearer.

This just highlights how daft this whole scheme is.
The further back you go, the stronger BMC candidates become, because of their "experienced" classics riders.
The actual BMC 2009 squad were almost exclusively novices to top flight road racing.

 

[ingsve]

This just highlights how daft this whole scheme is.
The further back you go, the stronger BMC candidates become, because of their "experienced" classics riders.
The actual BMC 2009 squad were almost exclusively novices to top flight road racing.

Well this isn't about how strong a perticular team has been in the past but rather how strong the various teams are going into next year.

The fact that BMC has a strong classics team is the very reason why they deserve the spot way more than Geox who only has two riders and not much else.

A teams worth is not determined by their one leader it's determined by what their team can do. You act as if BMC are cheating Geox out of a spot by having a classics team.

 

[Mambo95]

Put it another way.
Had BMC not had Evans to ride for, (even though his Giro squad was reported as missing in Holland) who would have scored points for them, as team leader?

No-one's going to get huge points, but Moribito and Burghardt did well at the Tour de Suisse when Evans wasn't there, so could probably pick up points in some other stage races. Ballan and Santambrogio too, perhaps. Kroon generally goes well in the Ardennes. Bookwalter could target a few time-trials.

 

[Angliru]

Euskaltel changed it mind. Anton and Nieve are confirmed for the Giro.

I would've thought with the Vuelta's long awaited return to the Basque country that Euskaltel would've had Anton maybe do the Pays Basque, the Ardennes classics and save his energies for a run at winning the Vuelta.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Well this isn't about how strong a perticular team has been in the past but rather how strong the various teams are going into next year.

The fact that BMC has a strong classics team is the very reason why they deserve the spot way more than Geox who only has two riders and not much else.

A teams worth is not determined by their one leader it's determined by what their team can do. You act as if BMC are cheating Geox out of a spot by having a classics team.

+1

This just highlights how daft this whole scheme is.
The further back you go, the stronger BMC candidates become, because of their "experienced" classics riders.
The actual BMC 2009 squad were almost exclusively novices to top flight road racing.

I think that is unfair...you have to start from somewhere and it is much better than just buying a whole team. I would ask you to put "BMC Hater" in your signature.

Ballan, Kroon, Hincapie, Burghardt, Van Avermaet, Quinziato are all well established top riders and are well above what anyone except the leaders at Geox has. On top of that they also have Moinard, Santaromita, Tschopp, Morabito, Santambroggio and Kristoff etc who are at least equal to the Geox bunch.

I can grant that some of the BMC guys are on the decline while the Geox guys like Duarte, Duran, Felline etc are on the rise but the PT licenses are not handed out based on speculation about what you can do in the future but on what you actually have done already in the past and based on that then BMC has more established riders than Geox.

Exactly right

There's more to teamwork than being in the final selection on mountain stages. You probably also think that Bert Grabsch does nothing for HTC because he finishes five minutes down on the flat stages.

Exactly right

I agree, but main point was that he'll ride Giro mainly because BMC doesn't have strong enough team to ride 3 GTs, so they'll put Kristoff into the startlist as the team leader to taste the GT atmosphere and maybe try to win the stage before he'll inevitably withdraws.
On the other hand we see Colnago, Acqua Sapone and Geox. One of them will not start Giro. Don't what to think who is stronger/weaker; what is fair/unfair but it's reality and I can't say that everything is obvious.

With none of the real big sprinters going to the giro I think it is a great opportunity for Kristoff to pick up a stage or two.I'd imagine this would be the team

Kristoff
Wyss
Kohler
Phinney
Murphy
Santaromita
Quinziato
Beyer
Tschopp

Then the tdf team

Evans
Morabito
Santambrogio
Van avermaet
Ballan
Moinard
Hincapie
Burghardt
Bookwalter

 

[Rocksteady]

+1

I'd imagine this would be the team

Kristoff
Wyss
Kohler
Phinney
Murphy
Santaromita
Quinziato
Beyer
Tschopp

No Way they send Phinney (who can't climb) to the Giro... Phinney will be in Cali beating Levi in the time trial again.

 

[BeachBum]

I am still of the opinion the Luxembourg team should not have gotten a protour license, nor should Sky and Radioshack last year have gotten such a license. I am of the firm opinion that such licences should not be giving to brand new team, let them first prove their worth and longevity.

I agree with this. Prove that you can race for one year in the Pro Conti ranks, and then you might be able to move up. If the Pro Conti team has any talent at all, they will get enough invites to Pro Tour/Historic calendar events to prove themselves, one way or the other. BMC, Cervelo, Garmin, Vacan all went this way (and further back, weren't the antedents of Saxo Division II?) and it worked. OK, some may argue that Vacan was slighted when it came to invites last eyar, but they made it this year.