What hapened to Contador?

[Tyler'sTwin]

There is no way Contador finished second in Le Dauphine after extracting blood. I mean come one! How good do you think this guy is? It's far more likely that Janez was sweating hemoglobin.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

By using EPO to level out your reticulocyte count and a bag of saline if the testers are coming in the morning?

Can't figure out how they would mask the change in values after they store blood though. Instances of crit down and retics up OOC, might be a better way to catch those "planning to dope" than looking for crit up and retics down during competition.

 

[Cloxxki]

One can drink a lot of water in a shower

 

[syringelessss]

1. A clean rider can lose more than 4 minutes on the Alp vs. a doped rider.
2. Contador's primary, if not sole, goal is the Tour.
3. Were Contador in Pantani form in June, he would not be able to sustain such form into July.
4. Did you see Andy Schleck in the Tour of California??? He got dropped by everybody on the climbs. So what???
5. Relax - Contador will dominate the Tour. He is the best GC rider of all time, and the best climber of all time. Of course, he's as clean as the Oakland Raiders....

 

[Polish]

It's almost to the point that cyclists will have to be coated in some detector film that would indicate if a needle penetrated their skin. We're talking junkie behavior, now.

Couldn't the riders use the same hole that the DopeTester/"vampires" caused?
Lance is full of "vampire" holes....

How about the blood Lance donates to the RedCross for Disaster Victims?
TUE?

 

[Cobblestones]

Couldn't the riders use the same hole that the DopeTester/"vampires" caused?
Lance is full of "vampire" holes....

How about the blood Lance donates to the RedCross for Disaster Victims?
TUE?

Of course he might be the only donor in history to show up with an already filled bag at a red cross blood drive.

 

[JPM London]

Of course he might be the only donor in history to show up with an already filled bag at a red cross blood drive.

You're cracking me up!

 

[MacRoadie]

Of course he might be the only donor in history to show up with an already filled bag at a red cross blood drive.

Or perhaps the only one who comes looking for blood?

 

[Oldman]

Or perhaps the only one who comes looking for blood?

...have refrigerator, will travel.

 

[acoggan]

Agree, plus the training effect/supercompensation from RACING with low blood vols.

If anything, training with low blood volume would limit the benefits obtained, not enhance them.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

If anything, training with low blood volume would limit the benefits obtained, not enhance them.

Along the same lines as LHTH not working well because athletes can train at full intensity?

 

[acoggan]

Along the same lines as LHTH not working well because athletes can train at full intensity?

Probably worse, actually.

 

[Parrot23]

If you train/race with a "monkey" on your back (very slightly low in blood) and then take it off in subsequent targeted race (add the blood back in), surely there is some compensatory/bounce training effect beyond simply the strict math of the blood: -1 blood out, +1 blood in.

OR do the net benefits of blood additions in a targeted race exceed the earlier training 'losses' from earlier blood withdrawals? Makes the autologous equation seem iffy, yet these guys go to enormous trouble to do it.

The difference between some riders' Dauphine and Tour performances is way more than either someone backing off at the former (eg. Tyler Hamilton or Landis half an hour off the back in the Dauphine, feigning illness) or putting in an additional 2-week block of training after the Dauphine that miraculously produces 30-50 additional watts, deus ex machina.

 

[BroDeal]

If anything, training with low blood volume would limit the benefits obtained, not enhance them.

The riders are probably using EPO to artificially increase their RBCs before harvesting. If they could increase their RBCs by 10% then they could take out one unit and only drop back to normal levels. Just before harvesting they would get the benefit of training harder than they could at normal blood levels. Just after harvesting they would be at normal blood levels, so there would be no slump in training intensity. Do this over and over again during the weeks leading up to the Tour and not only do they start the Tdf with two and a half liters in the fridge, they start the race with some hellacious training sessions in their legs done at the hematocrit high points. Heck, their training plans could be designed to take into account the expected variation in hematocrit.

 

[acoggan]

If you train/race with a "monkey" on your back (very slightly low in blood) and then take it off in subsequent targeted race (add the blood back in), surely there is some compensatory/bounce

Surely there isn't. Training with a reduced blood volume would not only compromise the absolute intensity of your trainings sessions, it could very well diminish the training effect achieved even if you somehow were able to maintain the same absolute intensity.

 

[Parrot23]

Do this over and over again during the weeks leading up to the Tour and not only do they start the Tdf with two and a half liters in the fridge, they start the race with some hellacious training sessions in their legs done at the hematocrit high points.

Bro, that's my understanding, that the manipulation, however done, boosts training blocks and that this is a primary target of manipulation as well (not just autologous race additions). Must be why the vampires are after them specifically in the final weeks of block training (re last year's "showergate" affair, waiting for Lance after a training session). It's the hellacious blocks they can do, by one means or another, yet somehow disguising their blood profiles as Frei said was so ridiculously easy (his deliberately ironic comment vis EPO about simply drinking a big glass of water in the evening), and Landis described in some preliminary detail.

Ferrari and Fuentes and Cechinni, etc., are meticulous folks with a lot of experience with a lot of winners to have got the details right, whatever they are. Landis seems to have described just the tip of the iceberg.

Surely there isn't. Training with a reduced blood volume would not only compromise the absolute intensity of your trainings sessions, it could very well diminish the training effect achieved even if you somehow were able to maintain the same absolute intensity.

To me, reduced external measures of intensity (eg. watts) of training because the "parking brake" is on doesn't necessarily imply reduced training stimulus (internally, physiologically), but the same stimulus at lower externally measured levels.

I think what you are de facto saying, or your position has to be:

The net benefits of blood additions in a targeted race exceed the earlier training 'losses' from earlier blood withdrawals, if the autologous route makes any sense at all.

I understand that you can't be attributing this to specific riders.

Thanks for feedback.

 

[BroDeal]

Bro, that's my understanding, that the manipulation, however done, boosts training blocks and that this is a primary target of manipulation as well (not just autologous race additions). Must be why the vampires are after them specifically in the final weeks of block training (re last year's "showergate" affair, waiting for Lance after a training session). It's the hellacious blocks they can do, by one means or another, yet somehow disguising their blood profiles as Frei said was so ridiculously easy (his deliberately ironic comment vis EPO about simply drinking a big glass of water in the evening), and Landis described in some preliminary detail.

My point is that the most hellacious training sessions could be done when their hematocrits are at their highest levels in the days before making a donation to their closet refrigerators. I think our views are opposite.

 

[Parrot23]

I mentioned the blocks "however done", via EPO whatever and the broad spectrum of doping. I'm not just talking purely of autologous withdrawals/additions here but globally. Maybe mixing apples and oranges. I'm not that interested in the details, just the results.

eg. I don't know how they raise their hematocrits undetectably when vampires are around. Maybe Frei's glass of water routine, showergate, etc. The vampires show up exactly when they are doing the blocks (re the one year when Lance was preparing in California, with climbing blocks, and being tested then). Must be why they go to out of the way places.

In any case, I don't buy the intensity argument, which your argument may be premised on as well, like Coggan's: re external watts may fall in training from withdrawals, but the internal physiological stresses at lower watts intensity are likely no different when the "parking brake is on" (blood withdrawn). I don't see the need to top the blood quality up pre-emptively to withdrawals.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

The riders are probably using EPO to artificially increase their RBCs before harvesting. If they could increase their RBCs by 10% then they could take out one unit and only drop back to normal levels. Just before harvesting they would get the benefit of training harder than they could at normal blood levels. Just after harvesting they would be at normal blood levels, so there would be no slump in training intensity.....Heck, their training plans could be designed to take into account the expected variation in hematocrit.

That sounds more like it. Then they need to mask the pre-harvest high Hb with saline. Much easier than masking low Hb and doesn't interrupt their training, maybe even gives it a boost.

 

[acoggan]

I don't buy the intensity argument, which your argument may be premised on as well, like Coggan's: re external watts may fall in training from withdrawals, but the internal physiological stresses at lower watts intensity are likely no different when the "parking brake is on" (blood withdrawn).

If what you say were true, then why would "live high, train low" and/or its variants (e.g., performing intervals using a hyerpoxic gas mixture while living at altitude) provide greater benefits than simply training in hypoxia at the same relative intensity but a lower absolute intensity?

 

[vrusimov]

The whole "its just june" talk is nonsense, Contadors LT seems to be >10% lower than at last years TDF. You can only make such a big jump with 3-4 weeks of training when you come back from several weeks of illness/injuries/no training.
No Pro who has been consistently training can add 40-50 Watts like that, we all know that there is only one way to make such an improvement.
We are talking about a guy who looked relaxed pushing 480 Watts up an 8km climb and beating Fabian Cancellara in a long ITT.
Yeah other TDF champions have had similar form curves in the past...and we all know why.

...i would say that the biggest difference that can be made with the Tour only two weeks away is being fresh and losing additional weight...a hard week in the mountains would be the "most" you could probably get away with, if you did'nt dig too deep at Suisse...the Tour is so rigorous from the start that you'd risk early depletion arriving less than totally rested...you could make a slight jump if you'd previously just been doing work at L4 and below...then adding anaerobic blocks could push you up a bit but certainly not 40-50 watts from a one week block...impossible...not even 20...your wattage might improve a little ahead of the mountains but once there the body has to start breaking down as the stress load increases substantially...hematocrit then goes south unless...

 

[Parrot23]

If what you say were true, then why would "live high, train low" and/or its variants (e.g., performing intervals using a hyerpoxic gas mixture while living at altitude) provide greater benefits than simply training in hypoxia at the same relative intensity but a lower absolute intensity?

I'm really out of my depth here. Can't comment on your point.

All I know is what I have repeatedly seen, that is, guys who win the Tour and who are, clearly, at the Dauphine low on blood, huffing and puffing, and not the least concerned:

- Landis half an hour off the back, feigning illness at the Dauphine the year he won the Tour

- same thing I think with Hamilton one year at Dauphine, if I remember correctly

- and the Hog mentions Vino another year: "Vino at the 2007 Dauphine was the best. He'd obviously had dropped a pint and would give up on the mountain stages with 30 or kms to go. At one point he was laughing and waving at the camera as he dropped off. He knew he'd come back like tank with blood back in the system come July."

- Alberto this year (even with his break from racing, not targeting the win, blah, blah, blah, he's still not the least concerned to be dialed back 8 times by a second-tier rider like Jani B on a really major climb while clearly working much harder). When's the last time we've seen that? But Alberto is all smiles on the podium, happy as a clam. Enough to make one a cynic--or an idiot not to notice as a fan.

Hence, it doesn't seem a huge deal to these guys (in the global picture) for their training and "pretend" racing if they are somewhat/ marginally low on blood. Net, the training losses seem more than offset by the strategic addition of autologous blood later at the Tour (or they pull the stunt Bro mentioned, albeit with huge risks with the "vampires" around). Net they're ahead.

They pull a rabbit out of the hat on a putative 2 more weeks of training. They "find" the extra watts.

As I say I'm out of my depth here on the details.

 

[Benotti69]

is there a specific temp to store blood at or is it below a certain temp?

 

[acoggan]

I'm really out of my depth here.

As are, apparently, 99.99% of those who post here.

 

[acoggan]

is there a specific temp to store blood at or is it below a certain temp?

You cannot refrigerate it for more than 90 d, which is generally insufficient time for the body to adequately replace the amount that was withdrawn. The RBCs therefore must be isolated by centrifugation, mixed with glycerol (as an anti-freeze), and stored at a sub-zero temperature (cf. the classic studies of blood doping by Spriet et al.).