What hapened to Contador?

[Parrot23]

So you think he can overcome his 51.38 Alpe-Time and shine at the TdF? I mean his time was so "bad" it wouldn´t even win in the 50´s.

Even if he backed off totally, the fact he and his team are not the slightest bit concerned is bizarre, really bizarre.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/menchov-gains-confidence-despite-time-loss-on-lalpe-dhuez

It fits the blood addition/subtraction hypothesis to a T.

Mind, Menchov has never been the same since the human plasma place was shut down in Austria.

 

[Escarabajo]

So you think he can overcome his 51.38 Alpe-Time and shine at the TdF? I mean his time was so "bad" it wouldn´t even win in the 50´s.

Tyler and Landis did it in the past. And another popular Colombian rider who I don't want to mention.

 

[richwagmn]

Old, veteran American rider helping new young American rider on his first time up Alpe d'Huez. Horner is just that kind of guy anyway - very cool.

Nothing wrong with what Horner did. Doubt it was anything about Contador at all. Just helping a young guy in trouble. Pretty much all he did was open a slot in a paceline he was in so TJ could get in.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Even if he backed off totally...

Mind, Menchov has never been the same since the human plasma place was shut down in Austria.

Yes, he must be real scared. No results since last years Giro. And even if he gave up early, it showed he couldn´t even keep up with the leaders for 3 km.

It would be a little sister of the "famous" LA-Comebacks, if he can keep up at the TdF.

After all, the theory of the "leave-the-blood-in-France-now" is a plausible one. It would have been great, if the Alpe was in this years tour for comparison. Maybe next year, and we´ll all see times dropping from 42 mins. to 38 mins. for the winner. It´s amazing that June-Form into July-Form gives 10% gains in climbs.

 

[Delicato]

No results? 2nd in Murcia and Romandie, that is more than enough. He is the type of rider who concentrates on one or two races, unlike Contador. Don't expect him to smoke the field in spring and in July like AC does.

Take Andy Schleck. Was nearly invisible this year (except two top-10 in Ardennes which is not convincing enough) and yet he is the number 2 favourite.

 

[FastMatt]

Umm..sorry. But Alberto actually gave everything trying to drop Jani. It just was not gonna happen. But, I think he will find his form by July.

If his form (which is injected via IV) is not intercepted by the police before the TDF!

 

[flicker]

With the pressure created by Landis`s revelations I think its likely this years TDF could actualy be the cleanest ever.
If that turns out to be true expect to see many more DNF`s..very large gaps in the field, slower overall race speed and some very batttered looking finishers.
Thats how you`l know a GT is clean..or cleanish

As much as I dislike Landis, his admonitions will clean up this years tour(I hope!)
I do not know if they are faking it but the races do seem closer (cleaner)this year. Also dropping the ball on Valverde was a great thing for cycling.

 

[spanky wanderlust]

I must have imagined AC winning atop the Alpe, a nice stage win after repeatedly saying he would not try to win the overall. Who could've guessed that BPC is an idiot?

A more interesting topic is how many of the TdF contenders in Switzerland placed so far down in stage 1. It looks like everyone knows full well that the Tour will be a battle of unrestricted doping. After Armstrong got away with his blood values last year and said that he will do everything possible to win this year, everyone must be riding a liter or more low with the deficit stored in their closet refrigerators.

won't the passport be comparing values from the dauphine and the tour? and wouldn't these dramatic changes look pretty suspicious? how would you fool the passport in this scenario?

aside from making donations to the uci, naturally.

 

[flicker]

Agree, plus the training effect/supercompensation from RACING with low blood vols. Bertie was REALLY, REALLY working hard--wasn't backing off in the slightest--YET didn't seem the least upset afterward to have been repeatedly chased down by Brak. These guys know what's what.

Even with the wind, the diff. in Brak and Bertie's effort on Alpe d'Huez was laughable. Don't tell me, anyone, that Brak's baseline fitness/FTP far exceeds Bertie's, LOL.

So much of these results make sense when one thinks of blood additions/withdrawals timing.

Dauphine period is notorious for this. Bet Landis was withdrawing or post-withdrawal when he was half hour off the back on Dauphine climbs, then promptly wins the Tour that year. Same dynamics with Tyler H. at Dauphine, if I remember. And Lance just about killed himself at Dauphine one year against Mayo, when he was prob. low on blood.

Keeping blood in France, not crossing borders, makes a lot of sense. Shrewd. Doesn't Lance always tailor his final training in Nice? Late to be withdrawing blood? Or maybe just the small final amounts, with supercompensation in the final training blocks from slightly low blood volume?

UCI has just got to track total blood vol. regularly, esp. in Dauphine window every year.

I would love to hear what Le Mond, T. Hamilton,Bjarne Riis and Landis would say about what you wrote.

 

[Angliru]

How one can "overdo" the doping? Isn't it safer (given the fact that he wasn't caught with his super-doping in 2009) to do just the same this year and take it just a bit easier on the TTs and mountains?

Isn't the purpose of the Clinic forum to allow for a place to discuss anything doping related? I thought that was why it was created in the first place.

 

[Oldman]

Agree, plus the training effect/supercompensation from RACING with low blood vols. Bertie was REALLY, REALLY working hard--wasn't backing off in the slightest--YET didn't seem the least upset afterward to have been repeatedly chased down by Brak. These guys know what's what.

Even with the wind, the diff. in Brak and Bertie's effort on Alpe d'Huez was laughable. Don't tell me, anyone, that Brak's baseline fitness/FTP far exceeds Bertie's, LOL.

So much of these results make sense when one thinks of blood additions/withdrawals timing.

Dauphine period is notorious for this. Bet Landis was withdrawing or post-withdrawal when he was half hour off the back on Dauphine climbs, then promptly wins the Tour that year. Same dynamics with Tyler H. at Dauphine, if I remember. And Lance just about killed himself at Dauphine one year against Mayo, when he was prob. low on blood.

Keeping blood in France, not crossing borders, makes a lot of sense. Shrewd. Doesn't Lance always tailor his final training in Nice? Late to be withdrawing blood? Or maybe just the small final amounts, with supercompensation in the final training blocks from slightly low blood volume?

UCI has just got to track total blood vol. regularly, esp. in Dauphine window every year.[/QUOTE]

How explainable would variances due to dehydration be? I did a hot and hard ride yesterday and dropped over 4 lbs. What would that do to my hematacrit and volume levels? I'd presume they would vary more significantly than the tuned microdoses would. Anyone?

 

[Angliru]

You could be right

I wouldn't bet on it though

...but for some reason it hasn't really done much for Popavich (sp).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

+1.

also of note -- contador's two "bad" days were while riding in france (crit international and crit dauphine). i would not be surprised if blood extraction took place then. this way blood bags can remain in france and don't need to be transported over borders/customs.

Though it is part of france, Corsica (where the Crit International took place) is an island separate from mainland France and as a result of entering mainland France by the seas, blood bags extracted there would be almost as likely to be subject to customs as crossing other borders. Don't believe the hype, it's a sequel, as an equal, can I get this through to you? My 98's booming with a trunk of funk, and all you jealous punks can't stop the dunk.

 

[Parrot23]

Take Andy Schleck. Was nearly invisible this year (except two top-10 in Ardennes which is not convincing enough) and yet he is the number 2 favourite.

With Menchov, it's not like day and night compared to when he was destroying a doped di Luca in the Giro last year. A doped di Luca nearly killed himself trying to drop Menchov on every hill he could find.

Menchov held his back wheel like a limpet mine with what looked like breathing very like Brak's vs. Bertie's on Alpe D'Huez this year. Menchov was sensational in last year's Giro.

I think A. Schleck's results this year so far are almost entirely a function of winter injury. Didn't he even have surgery on a knee? Can't remember, but he lost a large part of the winter to injury.

 

[Parrot23]

I would love to hear what Le Mond, T. Hamilton,Bjarne Riis and Landis would say about what you wrote.

That would be really interesting.

Just look at Bertie's breathing vs. Brak's on the Dauphine climb and it has to be low blood volume. No way Bertie can train himself to > Brak by a country mile in the Tour (IF Brak were there) in 2-week block of "natural"/normal training. It's ridiculous. Fans are being treated like idiots.

Brak is topped up; Bertie is training on Alpe d'Huez low blood volume. How else is the breathing difference explained, I ask myself. It must feel like riding slightly anemic.

NB: I don't think bio-passport covers total blood volume (there's some C0 test they don't do to measure it). It's a huge open barn door for autologous blood doping.

EDIT: corrected CO per luckboy below, thanks. (You are a lucky boy if that's your girl friend, and I know it's not )

 

[luckyboy]

It's CO, not CO2 btw.

 

[flicker]

That would be really interesting.

Just look at Bertie's breathing vs. Brak's on the Dauphine climb and it has to be low blood volume. No way Bertie can train himself to > Brak by a country mile in the Tour (IF Brak were there) in 2-week block of "natural"/normal training. It's ridiculous. Fans are being treated like idiots.

Brak is topped up; Bertie is training on Alpe d'Huez low blood volume. How else is the breathing difference explained, I ask myself. It must feel like riding slightly anemic.

NB: I don't think bio-passport covers total blood volume (there's some C02 test they don't do to measure it). It's a huge open barn door for autologous blood doping.

I imagine no more than a unit of blood is drawn before each "Program steppage" How far apart can each unit be removed without health or performance problems? A unit is what 12 oz.?

 

[red_flanders]

won't the passport be comparing values from the dauphine and the tour? and wouldn't these dramatic changes look pretty suspicious? how would you fool the passport in this scenario?

aside from making donations to the uci, naturally.

By using EPO to level out your reticulocyte count and a bag of saline if the testers are coming in the morning?

 

[Parrot23]

I imagine no more than a unit of blood is drawn before each "Program steppage" How far apart can each unit be removed without health or performance problems? A unit is what 12 oz.?

I really don't know the details of how this is done. Landis is supposed to have provided a lot of details, and more should come out when and if charges are filed. Fuentes and Ferrari and Conconi and Cecchini must mastered all of this.

It's certainly helps with very finely honed peaking. Lasse Viren the 5k and 10K double Olympic gold medalists at two successive Olympics certainly used autologous blood doping to peak incredibly accurately.

I think Cecchini was Riis' coach, or associated with him. Yes, I see there is some info here. Quite the pedigree:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Cecchini

 

[alberto.legstrong]

I imagine no more than a unit of blood is drawn before each "Program steppage" How far apart can each unit be removed without health or performance problems? A unit is what 12 oz.?[/QUOTE]

It's typically referred to as a pint (16 ounces) it's actually slightly less than that.

A unit of whole blood is 450 milliliters, which is about 0.9510 U.S. pint. (Source Unc.edu, medical research university in North Carolina)

 

[alberto.legstrong]

By using EPO to level out your reticulocyte count and a bag of saline if the testers are coming in the morning?

Sorry if this is a little OT, but at least I am in the clinic.

Saline drips? When did they first come into vogue? Can equivalent rehydration occur without the use of saline? What would be the difference to performance on a CLEAN endurance athlete's recovery who could NOT use a saline drip? What would be the impact of a ban on IV re-hydration on legitimate (clean) performance?

Sorry, prolly shoulda started a new thread....

 

[red_flanders]

Sorry if this is a little OT, but at least I am in the clinic.

Saline drips? When did they first come into vogue? Can equivalent rehydration occur without the use of saline? What would be the difference to performance on a CLEAN endurance athlete's recovery who could NOT use a saline drip? What would be the impact of a ban on IV re-hydration on legitimate (clean) performance?

Sorry, prolly shoulda started a new thread....

I was referring to this:

The main difference between their methodology and that of riders in the 1990s, Landis said, was riders of his era learned to inject EPO intravenously rather than subcutaneously, as a cancer patient or someone with another grave illness would do.

When EPO is injected under the skin, it is absorbed first into soft tissue and released into the bloodstream gradually, prolonging its therapeutic effects. Injecting EPO intravenously has the same effect of boosting red blood cell count and improving oxygen processing capacity. However, the drug disperses more quickly in the bloodstream and thus becomes undetectable sooner -- especially if riders dilute their blood with an intravenous drip of saline solution or simply by drinking a lot of water after injecting it.

Roughly speaking, the biological passport is designed to catch riders who cheat based on fluctuations in their baseline blood values. One fundamental element is the ratio of their "young" or new red blood cells, called reticulocytes, compared with mature cells. When an athlete transfuses his own blood, the body responds by slowing down production of reticulocytes. Landis said riders brought the level of red blood cell production back to normal by microdosing with EPO during races on a nightly basis.

 

[spanky wanderlust]

I was referring to this:

that's pretty cool. epo as a masking agent for autologous infusions. bring the reticulocyte ratios to something approaching normal while keeping the epo undetectable. these guys never stop coming up with ways to cheat.

it seems this system would necessitate always knowing when the vampires were coming. or can they microdose the epo so that it is not detectable even if they don't flush for a surprise test?

but back to the topic at hand, if there is no total blood volume test, and the reticulocyte ratios can be mimicked with microdosing, is there really no other way to compare riders' values in the dauphine-tour window?

 

[Oldman]

that's pretty cool. epo as a masking agent for autologous infusions. bring the reticulocyte ratios to something approaching normal while keeping the epo undetectable. these guys never stop coming up with ways to cheat.

it seems this system would necessitate always knowing when the vampires were coming. or can they microdose the epo so that it is not detectable even if they don't flush for a surprise test?

but back to the topic at hand, if there is no total blood volume test, and the reticulocyte ratios can be mimicked with microdosing, is there really no other way to compare riders' values in the dauphine-tour window?

It's almost to the point that cyclists will have to be coated in some detector film that would indicate if a needle penetrated their skin. We're talking junkie behavior, now.

 

[red_flanders]

that's pretty cool. epo as a masking agent for autologous infusions. bring the reticulocyte ratios to something approaching normal while keeping the epo undetectable. these guys never stop coming up with ways to cheat.

it seems this system would necessitate always knowing when the vampires were coming. or can they microdose the epo so that it is not detectable even if they don't flush for a surprise test?

but back to the topic at hand, if there is no total blood volume test, and the reticulocyte ratios can be mimicked with microdosing, is there really no other way to compare riders' values in the dauphine-tour window?

It would seem not. Sounds like they pummeled the passport with ridiculous ease, and if nothing about it has changed, they still will.

That a rider would still show values like Armstrong did in the Tour, while presumably masking with EPO microdosing, shows you how much they're all still doping.

Landis said they did get tips on when the vampires were coming but that microdosing allowed you to beat an unexpected test with saline or drinking a large glass of water.

I assume testers having coffee with the team or allowing you to have a shower before the test allows you to do either pretty easily.