::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~::::

[usedtobefast]

'Twisty spokes'..great for bike shows, does nothing for wheel performance.

to me it says, 'accordion time'...

 

[rich00]

Hi all,

I need some advice at attempting my first wheel build. I'm looking at replacing my Mavic Aksiums on my training/commuter bike. The rear wheel is starting to develop cracks around the eyelets ! I've only had this wheel set for about 5000 km or so. I wiegh 80 kg / 176 lb and commute to work which is mainly road with a bit of a bumpy bike path and tram lines. I'm considering Mavic Open Pro on Miche Racing Box hubs, laced with DT spokes. Not sure if should go with a 14/15g double butted or straight 14g. It will be a 3 cross front and back on 32h rims. Is this configuration ok for my first build or should I get a factory set like Fulcrum 7's or 5's ?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Hi all,

I need some advice at attempting my first wheel build. I'm looking at replacing my Mavic Aksiums on my training/commuter bike. The rear wheel is starting to develop cracks around the eyelets ! I've only had this wheel set for about 5000 km or so. I wiegh 80 kg / 176 lb and commute to work which is mainly road with a bit of a bumpy bike path and tram lines. I'm considering Mavic Open Pro on Miche Racing Box hubs, laced with DT spokes. Not sure if should go with a 14/15g double butted or straight 14g. It will be a 3 cross front and back on 32h rims. Is this configuration ok for my first build or should I get a factory set like Fulcrum 7's or 5's ?

Looks like you're on the fence whether to build, or not to build. That is the question? I say go ahead and build up those Open Pro/Miche/DT db's in 32h 3x, you won't be disappointed with that combo, and you'll learn something very valuable to boot. Even tension is the key, that's what it's all about. If you know somebody that knows what's up, bike shop wrench or decent home mech that knows wheels, Have them check your work. Remember, even tension is the key to a solid build. May I ask, where are you learning to build wheels?

 

[rich00]

Looks like you're on the fence whether to build, or not to build. That is the question? I say go ahead and build up those Open Pro/Miche/DT db's in 32h 3x, you won't be disappointed with that combo, and you'll learn something very valuable to boot. Even tension is the key, that's what it's all about. If you know somebody that knows what's up, bike shop wrench or decent home mech that knows wheels, Have them check your work. Remember, even tension is the key to a solid build. May I ask, where are you learning to build wheels?

Yeah right on the fence..... The bike has only shimano 105 and I don't want to go overboard. As I do the figures the fulcrum's are looking good, mavic open pros in Aus aren't exactly cheap. As for how I'm going learn, various internet forums, sites etc, which is not exactly ideal. I've just started truing my own wheels, this is when I noticed the cracks before I started truing them that is.

Also noted that the Miche hubs have an alloy free hub, so I'm a bit cautious about longevity. Anyone have experince with their hubs ?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Yeah right on the fence..... The bike has only shimano 105 and I don't want to go overboard. As I do the figures the fulcrum's are looking good, mavic open pros in Aus aren't exactly cheap. As for how I'm going learn, various internet forums, sites etc, which is not exactly ideal. I've just started truing my own wheels, this is when I noticed the cracks before I started truing them that is.

Also noted that the Miche hubs have an alloy free hub, so I'm a bit cautious about longevity. Anyone have experince with their hubs ?

There's nothing wrong with learning off the interjuggernaut, Sheldon Brown has probably the easiest to follow step-by-step directions, and have recommended this to many aspiring wheel builders. Ideally for first timers you want to somebody to check tension for you with a tension gauge, otherwise you risk going under or over on your own. After you gain some experience you can basically feel what tension you're at, combined with using the tonal method. Don't rush, take your time, and ask lots of questions.

As for the the Miche fhub being aluminum, pretty much all the high end fhubs are no matter the mfg, options are limited unless you can find a steel one to retrofit. I've also seen a steel shim that can tuck between the fhub and gear cluster, keep an eye out for those. The Shimano fhub design was flawed from the get go, and I can't believe they've let it go all these years. I just rebuilt some Shimano equipped MTB wheels for a friend and both the fhubs were totally trashed. My oldest Campy fhub is 12 years old and looks like new even after thousands of miles.

 

[rich00]

Ok, I've taken the step and ordered the Mavic Open Pros.Was able to get them pretty cheap with free delivery. With the hubs I've decided to go with shimano 105 as the free hub is steel and again pretty cheap. Still going with DT 14/15g spokes, just worked out the lengths. Do the below figures look right ?

Mavic Open Pro ERD is 602mm
front hub 295.2mm
Rear NDS 294.4mm
Rear DS 292.6mm

Should I round the spoke lengths a 1mm up ? i.e. 295.2mm to 296mm.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Ok, I've taken the step and ordered the Mavic Open Pros.Was able to get them pretty cheap with free delivery. With the hubs I've decided to go with shimano 105 as the free hub is steel and again pretty cheap. Still going with DT 14/15g spokes, just worked out the lengths. Do the below figures look right ?

Mavic Open Pro ERD is 602mm
front hub 295.2mm
Rear NDS 294.4mm
Rear DS 292.6mm

Should I round the spoke lengths a 1mm up ? i.e. 295.2mm to 296mm.

No, usually round down to make up for spoke stretch and leeway over tension.
So your final lengths would go: 295 front, 294 rear nds, 292 rear ds.

 

[rich00]

Ok, I've taken the ERD from DT Swiss site. So spoke lenghts are:

FH 296.2mm(actual) 296mm
RDS 293.6mm " 293mm
RNDS 295.4mm " 295mm

What lubricant should I use for the nipples ? Linseed oil seems to be popular ...

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

What lubricant should I use for the nipples ? Linseed oil seems to be popular ...

Linseed tends to get too sticky when it dries. I like T9 or Finish Line, stays waxy. This year I stopped using Spoke Prep and switched to Loctite 220 by recommendation from Ric Hjertberg, ironically the inventor of Spoke Prep. So far so good.

 

[rich00]

Ok, thanks for all your advice so far. I now need to wait for all the parts to arrive. I will post as I go along, I do plan to take my time with this build

 

[justme]

I'd add that one should take everything in this thread loosely. There is a lot of good useful information in it, but at the same time there are plenty of pieces of bad information. The one that really stands out is mention of being able to feel spoke tension with experience, or gauge it based on a tonal method. This is absolutely false. A really well built wheel should have a very, very small variation in spoke tension between spokes on the same side of the wheel. Usually only a couple percent. There is nobody who can detect anything remotely close to this with their ears or fingers. If this is true then why do all the icons of wheelbuilding insist on using gauges on every wheel they build. Look at Rich Sawiris for example since he's been quoted in this thread. While easily one of the best builders in the world he goes to the extreme of not only using tension gauges, but having them custom made specifically for each different spoke he uses because even high end gauges don't measure accurately enough for his tolerances.

"Linseed tends to get too sticky when it's dry." Yes, that's the point it keeps a nipple from loosening in the detensioning cycle of the wheel. Though I do agree that 220 is good as well I wouldn't say it's any better or worse than spoke prep.

For those looking to learn a bit more about some of the facts of wheelbuilding, take a look at this hub review: http://fairwheelbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=6940 Sure the ultra high end hubs may be irrelevant to most here, but the explanations of bracing angles, bearing drag, and lacing patterns are spot on. Of course I'd expect nothing less considering it's coming from two very highly regarded wheelbuilders.

Oh and since the first couple pages of this thread were about KHS and Sapim spoke sizing, if you have a problem with their selections you can also pick them up from Alchemy bicycle works in New Mexico.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I'd add that one should take everything in this thread loosely. There is a lot of good useful information in it, but at the same time there are plenty of pieces of bad information. The one that really stands out is mention of being able to feel spoke tension with experience, or gauge it based on a tonal method. This is absolutely false.

Not true, I can usually get up to 120kgf consistently without a gauge, but I always double check with one.

There is nobody who can detect anything remotely close to this with their ears or fingers.

Wrong again. Most all wheel builders are taught to use tone and/or feel to achieve even tension along with the tension meter, If you didn't you're missing something. I learned this from Reed S. when we worked together at QBP over a decade ago, now the master builder at HED, and he's done it this way ever since day one, matter of fact so does every one else I know that builds.

If this is true then why do all the icons of wheelbuilding insist on using gauges on every wheel they build.

We all do, it's good insurance. Never been in a professional setting where we haven't, that would be Bush League now, wouldn't it.

Look at Rich Sawiris for example since he's been quoted in this thread. While easily one of the best builders in the world he goes to the extreme of not only using tension gauges, but having them custom made specifically for each different spoke he uses because even high end gauges don't measure accurately enough for his tolerances.

Sure, whatever works. Everybody's methods aren't exactly the same, most seasoned builders over time adopt very unique personal routines, methods, tools, and processes that work for them, and in the end the result is a solid and true wheel from a reputable wheel builder. I don't mind people coming here and offering suggestions, but to try and defame me by calling the suggestions I give "absolutely false", or "bad information", is not very cool. Especially since your entire argument is totally baseless. Did I state anywhere not to use a tension meter? If you have a problem with me suggesting to also learn the tonal method you should call up Easton and tell them to stop the presses. Pfff, whatever dude, seriously. Too bad you had to ruin a perfectly good recommendation session I had going with rich00, makes for a lot of unnecessary clutter, but it's a public forum what can I do. On a more positive note, that article you posted is pretty good.

 

[baker0127]

Hello everyone

Been in the bicycle buisness 20yrs have been "attempting" to build wheels a fraction of that time so this may seem like a beginner question: When it comes to figuring spoke lengths, with hub/rim/cross pattern etc, what do you guys believe is the most tried and true method of doing this? I don't do enough wheels to warrant keeping the "bikelog" (I believe thats the name) disc around month to month. Any ideas/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Been in the bicycle buisness 20yrs have been "attempting" to build wheels a fraction of that time so this may seem like a beginner question: When it comes to figuring spoke lengths, with hub/rim/cross pattern etc, what do you guys believe is the most tried and true method of doing this? I don't do enough wheels to warrant keeping the "bikelog" (I believe thats the name) disc around month to month. Any ideas/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Been using spocalc since the beginning. get it here. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm

The full version has a pretty loaded database of rims and hubs up till about 2003 or so, but most of the new stuff hasn't changed just cosmetically, I always double check measurements though. The nice thing about spocalc if you know how to use Excel you can just add your own if not listed. I must have added an extra 20 rims and hubs to the list over the years. The only fault I found is how Damon illustrates how to measure ERD (effective rim diameter) He says to measure to heads of the nipple, when you should measure to the nipple seat, usually about 2mm less each side for average 12 or 14mm nips. Most rims will have ERD listed right on them or their packaging, if not, the manufacturer lists it on their sites, or just ask.

Since ERD is the most important measurement to determine spoke length, I'll tell you how I do it, really simple. Use a couple shorter J-bend spokes than normal for the wheel set you plan on building. Place them in opposite holes with the nipples threaded on all the way, then hook a rubber band on to the bends to cinch it together. now measure down the center, basically from one nipple end to the other where the spoke disappears into the nipple. Now add nipple length to the total, so If you have 12 mm nipples add 20mm, 14mm nips add 24, so on and so forth. Remember to subtract that extra 2mm from nipple head from each side to get true ERD from seat to seat. Measuring hubs are just as easy, Damon's description is spot on. If you don't want to download anything, there's always the DT calc. http://www.dtswiss.com/SpokesCalc/Welcome.aspx?language=en

 

[rich00]

Ok, I've now completed my first wheelset.

So here is my first experience
Mavic Open Pro
105 hubs
DT champion straight guage.

I changed spoke type mainly because the LBS didn't have doubke butted. It was interesting when they gave alu nipples when I asked for brass.The store clerk said it will be lighter..Hah. I quickly replied that I was after reliablilty and wasn't going to have light wheels with straight gauge and 105 hubs. He then kindly gave me the brass nipples.

Now with spokes in hand I built one wheel each night after the kids went to bed. I started with the front and nocticed the store gave me an extra spoke.Cool I thought, not until I noticed after I laced thr wheel that one spoke was extra loose and the threads were still exposed. I swapped out the spoke with the spare and noticed that the loose spoke was longer than the others..

So the front wheel went ok, followed Roger Musson's book which the process seemed to work.

Next night built the rear, no problem with varying spoke lengths as I checked them standign them on a flat service. The rear took a longer to build, the dishing required a few more adjust than the front.

The wheels took me about 3 hours each to build ! So how long does it take for everyone else to build a wheel ?

What I did notice that on the rear the spokes are just about flush with the end the spoke nipple. Non drive side tend just protrude no more .05 mm. I'm thinking is the spoke too long? The front wheel the spoke have about 1mm or so before being flush the slot.

Spoke lengths
Front 296 mm
Rear drive side 294
Reer Non drive side 296
ERD 604 (DT swiss spoke calc)

The store only had them in even lengths.

So I mounted them and went for a quick ride. No pinging sounds which is good, as I stressed the wheels several times nearing the end of the build. The wheels feel reasonable solid. It's been a while since I've ridden a 32h 3x wheel, it's feels stiff but comfortable if that makes sense. After the ride the front wheel was still true and the rear needed a slight tweak. Then took it for a quick spin again and they reamined true.

So I'm pretty happy with them so far, It will be inetersting to see how long they will remain true. Hopefully a very long time.

Would I build another set again? Definitely will. I'm think going through this experience I can't look another wheel the same. Especially when the store clerk rambles on about wheels that happen to stock. I'm now looking at building a set for crits, but this time round I need to make them lighter.

Thanks for everyone's advice on this thread, it definitely helped.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Nice! Glad you chose to build your own wheel. Pretty cool, eh.

The front spoke length sounds like it's ok, the rear could stand to be shorter. 294nds/292ds. From what you said about the end of the spoke going past the end of the nipple means you're just about at the end of the threads, and since brass is more solid than alu it's possible to cut threads on the spoke at final tension and not even notice it happening. Just take your spare spoke and thread a nipple on all the way till it bottoms out and you'll see how much leeway you have left on the threads.

How did you check tension? No pinging is good. Means you have spoke torsion/twist under control, and are probably at a good tension.

Wouldn't worry about build time so much since you're not building for anyone but yourself. Generally, time spent on a wheel for experienced builders is about an hour, but that's in a pro setting. Always be more concerned with quality first and foremost, speed comes later.

Congrats!

 

[HongKongPhooey]

My back wheel felt like it had lost some tension this past couple of weeks so yesterday thought I had better give it a good fettling before it dies good and proper. Jig and dishing tool is at a friends house a good hour away, balls.. have to do it in the frame. Spokes pinging, a couple needed undoing a little to loosen the nipple... cue some swearing, a spoke breaks at the butting, more swearing, no cassette tool (its with the jig etc), more swearing... I'll just strip the hub (this bit actually goes smoothly, having a couple of spare spokes of the correct length is also a bonus). Next I am reminded that the monkey of a wheelbuilder who put them together switched spoke directions when the hubs were rebuilt. I remove the old spoke, more swearing as I find said monkey used spokes a good 5mm too long and there isnt much tensioning that can be done when the nipples are running out of thread...

Balls.

Rebuild time I think.

 

[rich00]

To get even tension, I tried to get all the spokes at a simialr tone. Then went round and gave a couple of half turns to bring them to final tension. I compared them to another wheel to guage how tight they should be. I used them on my commute which is there intended purpose and they have stayed trued. They feel great and roll really well.

 

[El Oso]

I've got a set of American Classics where the hubs have been absolute crap durability wise. I'm thinking about doing a rebuild with different hubs. The rims seem pretty nice, relatively light and as far as I can tell no durability issues (I replaced Ksyriums with American Classics because the rims cracked every other year). The rims are both 28h. I'm thinking about getting Ultegra hubs and using 14/15 spokes. Any thoughts?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I've got a set of American Classics where the hubs have been absolute crap durability wise. I'm thinking about doing a rebuild with different hubs. The rims seem pretty nice, relatively light and as far as I can tell no durability issues (I replaced Ksyriums with American Classics because the rims cracked every other year). The rims are both 28h. I'm thinking about getting Ultegra hubs and using 14/15 spokes. Any thoughts?

Wouldn't bother trying to salvage the rims. Sell the set as is, then start fresh with all new parts.

 

[rich00]

Question on high flange hubs.

Is the reason for high flange hubs to reduce spoke length and get a stiffer wheel ?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Question on high flange hubs.

Is the reason for high flange hubs to reduce spoke length and get a stiffer wheel ?

For track hubs, yes.

Some road hubs have a high/low for the rear to equalize tension a bit for a dished wheel. Very rarely see high flange sets on the road because rim depth also reduces spoke length, and you cannot have a wheel so stiff that it feels like your riding a jackhammer.

 

[krebs303]

how 'bout $6000 for a wheelset

Reynolds Composites Studio RZR 46T

 

[quadsRme]

how 'bout $6000 for a wheelset

Reynolds Composites Studio RZR 46T

krebs,
do you have any more of those greenbacks so i can help my son continue college?

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Reference Book.

Hi - looking at building up my own wheels in the not to distant future.

Can any of you experienced builders recommend a good reference book to use as a guide?

Thanks.