When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

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hiero2 said:
yeah. After the Festina affair. Riders dialed back. Yeah. And what you've just said has been validated by number of ppl who were there. Of course, we have nothing else to go on - but anecdotal validation in this case is better than nothing. Amof, I think it is pretty good evidence.
Nope. We have EPO tests from 1998 and 1999. There was a huge decrease.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
I have yet to hear from them how they explain Horners ToC 2011 (which was such grotesque that a new thread was dedicated to him back then) performance when Sky wasn´t even in sight of any tour domination...
uh no. If Wiggo hadn't stacked he would have punished the 2011 Tour - the Vuelta is a clear indication of the strength both he and Froome had gained with the hiring of Leinders, and earlier season races were hinting at it. And 2012 - from the very start - was a joke of world cycling domination.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
uh no. If Wiggo hadn't stacked he would have punished the 2011 Tour - the Vuelta is a clear indication of the strength both he and Froome had gained with the hiring of Leinders, and earlier season races were hinting at it. And 2012 - from the very start - was a joke of world cycling domination.
Common, everybody was expecting Wiggins to finish somewhere in the T-10. But I heared none (while he was still in the race) say that he would seriously win that TdF. The general assumption was more like "oh well, Wiggins in the form of 2009". Hardly to blame on any foreseeable Sky domination.
To use the vuelta in hindsight is crap. Horner & RSH were not riding the ToC with knowledge of future Vuelta outcomes. That´s absurd and you know it...
 
Jun 15, 2009
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mewmewmew13 said:
you're kool foxxy ;)

lot of weird and socially ignorant commenters on this forum and it's better to ignore most
Yop. I started to discuss the Sky issue seriously circa two years ago, when the bashing begun. In itself that (Sky bashing) might have made sense. But then it went as far as Sky brought the evil, and everybody else had to follow. Short memories here. There was Europcar bashing before, then came Sky. And doping cases never really stopped before Sky, and RSH with its shady riders, docs & DSes were around the whole time (also before Sky).

In short; the clinic became a circus. I take nothing for serious here anymore. Since the LA case was closed, the clinic reputation went downhill, very fast... Just now and then I stop here when it gets really out of hand (like with that gay jokes in the Froome thread).
 
Sep 29, 2012
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Common, everybody was expecting Wiggins to finish somewhere in the T-10. But I heared none (while he was still in the race) say that he would seriously win that TdF. The general assumption was more like "oh well, Wiggins in the form of 2009". Hardly to blame on any foreseeable Sky domination.
To use the vuelta in hindsight is crap. Horner & RSH were not riding the ToC with knowledge of future Vuelta outcomes. That´s absurd and you know it...
Wait. Are you saying Horner winning ToC was more suspicious than Wiggo's 2009 TdF podium surrounded by dopers?

Or are you having a cry because noone predicted the complete mockery Sky would make of the following 2 years of pro cycling?

Seriously? You're upset about 2011 ToC and Horner winning it because noone has said much since then? Ignoring Sky and their domination which has lead to domination of the forum discussion?

I am not following you at all. Could you perhaps explain what your concerns are more plainly?
 
Jul 10, 2010
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Yop. I started to discuss the Sky issue seriously circa two years ago, when the bashing begun. In itself that (Sky bashing) might have made sense. But then it went as far as Sky brought the evil, and everybody else had to follow. Short memories here. There was Europcar bashing before, then came Sky. And doping cases never really stopped before Sky, and RSH with its shady riders, docs & DSes were around the whole time (also before Sky).

In short; the clinic became a circus. I take nothing for serious here anymore. Since the LA case was closed, the clinic reputation went downhill, very fast... Just now and then I stop here when it gets really out of hand (like with that gay jokes in the Froome thread).
Well now. I often don't agree with you, but on this point? Yeah. I agree. Over-the-top bashing. Short memories. Clinic as circus. Yeah. I agree. I don't come here looking for enlightenment or validation any more. Nor for serious discussion. We have a pot full of people with O-pinions, flitting about, only too happy to show us their plumage.

Clip their primaries, keep 'em in a cage - they are definitely endangered wildlife. Oop. Birdlife. Tweeters, ya know. "I tot I taw a puddy tatt."?
 
I think both Lampre and Horner are the right choices for each other. Neither is likely to suffer for reputational damage in relation to the other parties possible future revelations.

No reputation to loose...:D
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Actually they hide behind the shield Sky. Giving them a reason why the great Horner is forced to dope. It´s so childish... If they could step forward and say yes "I am a Horner fanboy", yes "I like an american to win at all costs", I could accept.
Guys just be honest; You are not against doping. You are against doping of riders from other countries which prevent doping wins for americans. The simple sad truth. It all comes down to this stupid nationalism...
The pool of professional cyclists includes a very large percentage of dopers. That makes for a very polluted pool. Omertá adds to the filth.

You have to ask yourself: What are "clean" riders doing swimming in a filthy pool?
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Actually they hide behind the shield Sky. Giving them a reason why the great Horner is forced to dope. It´s so childish... If they could step forward and say yes "I am a Horner fanboy", yes "I like an american to win at all costs", I could accept.
Guys just be honest; You are not against doping. You are against doping of riders from other countries which prevent doping wins for americans. The simple sad truth. It all comes down to this stupid nationalism...
I, for one am against all doping. I am also against clowns who bang on and on about one obvious doper being an obvious doper, all the while defending other obvious dopers and accusing others of bias. Just sayin'.
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Actually they hide behind the shield Sky. Giving them a reason why the great Horner is forced to dope. It´s so childish... If they could step forward and say yes "I am a Horner fanboy", yes "I like an american to win at all costs", I could accept.
Guys just be honest; You are not against doping. You are against doping of riders from other countries which prevent doping wins for americans. The simple sad truth. It all comes down to this stupid nationalism...
or in a non nationalistic way:

some fans are not against doping. they are against doping of riders they don't like which prevent doping wins for their favourite riders
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Actually they hide behind the shield Sky. Giving them a reason why the great Horner is forced to dope. It´s so childish... If they could step forward and say yes "I am a Horner fanboy", yes "I like an american to win at all costs", I could accept.
Guys just be honest; You are not against doping. You are against doping of riders from other countries which prevent doping wins for americans. The simple sad truth. It all comes down to this stupid nationalism...
I think most of the top contenders are dirty. I sincerely wish they were not, but I'm convinced there were no top-5s and few if any top-10s in last year's Grand Tours.

So if I am going to watch GTs and root, and I am, I invariably end up feeling favor toward someone.

I like Horner's personality and riding style more than anyone else currently in GT contention. I wish he were clean and I wish his competitors were. They ain't.

So if you understand all that, you can call at least me a Horner Fanboy with my blessing.

It would be nice if all the Sky fanboys would face reality as well. Then I wouldn't give a **** who didn't like Horner. But calling out Horner and those who root for him while defending Sky and whining about "bashing" is a joke.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Wait. Are you saying Horner winning ToC was more suspicious than Wiggo's 2009 TdF podium surrounded by dopers?
No. I just said Horners super suspicious ToC win came before Sky did dominate anything. But in the clinic their is an assumption that Sky forced everybody else (including Horner & RSH) to dope. That´s absurd, and the guys know it. That´s why the clinic became a circus...

Dear Wiggo said:
Or are you having a cry because noone predicted the complete mockery Sky would make of the following 2 years of pro cycling?
No I don´t have a cry. As I said: I don´t take anything here serious anymore...
Anyway, try to twist my words to your fitting. Actually I said the opposite: Since no one predicted Skys domination, Sky can´t be used as a shield for others to have an excuse to dope like for example Horner at that ToC.

Dear Wiggo said:
Seriously? You're upset about 2011 ToC and Horner winning it because noone has said much since then? Ignoring Sky and their domination which has lead to domination of the forum discussion?
You still don´t get it...

Dear Wiggo said:
I am not following you at all. Could you perhaps explain what your concerns are more plainly?
See above, and my last few posts...

hiero2 said:
I don't come here looking for enlightenment or validation any more. Nor for serious discussion.
Same here. It used to be a good place. Now it´s my doper against yours who started the fire. It´s cruel. Zilch infos anymore.

Dear Wiggo said:
Generalisations are usually flawed, if not insulting.
That´s what happens here all the time since circa two years.

Hugh Januss said:
I, for one am against all doping. I am also against clowns who bang on and on about one obvious doper being an obvious doper, all the while defending other obvious dopers and accusing others of bias. Just sayin'.
Ask yourself: May I did it with intention? Just to balance the discussion? I think I expressed that often enough. Anyway, I gave up. Have a good day...
Wait; I´ll go on with Horner bashing for fun. For every gay joke in the Froome thread, I certainly have one for CH too. Just to hold up a mirror to those guys who lead unilateral "discussions". Mark that. :)

pastronef said:
some fans are not against doping. they are against doping of riders they don't like which prevent doping wins for their favourite riders
Better said than I did. Anyway, agree of course.
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
No. I just said Horners super suspicious ToC win came before Sky did dominate anything. But in the clinic their is an assumption that Sky forced everybody else (including Horner & RSH) to dope. That´s absurd, and the guys know it. That´s why the clinic became a circus...
So much fail in here. First of all, Sky's absurdity happened well before Horner's ToC win. Second, what does a second-rate race in Ca. have to do with anything? Nothing.

Last, and potentially most ridiculous is the idea that "the clinic became a circus" because of the idea some hold that Sky re-started the arms race. Clearly the arms race re-start idea is a reasonable view of things, though not a proven fact. Clearly the clinic is what it is and has been for years, and this minor point has jack-squadoosh to do with it.

Can we have some rational, informed discourse instead of this blanket generalization nonsense? FFS.
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
No. I just said Horners super suspicious ToC win came before Sky did dominate anything. But in the clinic their is an assumption that Sky forced everybody else (including Horner & RSH) to dope. That´s absurd, and the guys know it. That´s why the clinic became a circus...
Dude, it was the Tour of Freakin' California. You know, the race where the only reason anyone of note shows up is to get a tan and ogle the plethora of fake breasts. No matter what Liggett says, it is not the fourth GT. It's not even the tenth GT. You probably could have breached the top ten if you could keep out of the riders' post-race drinking contests.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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red_flanders said:
I think most of the top contenders are dirty. I sincerely wish they were not, but I'm convinced there were no top-5s and few if any top-10s in last year's Grand Tours.

So if I am going to watch GTs and root, and I am, I invariably end up feeling favor toward someone.

I like Horner's personality and riding style more than anyone else currently in GT contention. I wish he were clean and I wish his competitors were. They ain't.

So if you understand all that, you can call at least me a Horner Fanboy with my blessing.

It would be nice if all the Sky fanboys would face reality as well. Then I wouldn't give a **** who didn't like Horner. But calling out Horner and those who root for him while defending Sky and whining about "bashing" is a joke.
Honest post. That explains much. Well, I am a fanboy too. But for my defense I was still naive when Ullrich came up...
OTOH, I am no Sky fanboy. I expressed that often enough. If you think I am whining, good. You just didn´t got the point... Let´s stop here and go on with the circus. I play my biased pro Froome game now and then to balance the Sky bashing. Some do their absurd Horner-was-forced-by-Sky to dope talk. Let´s go on about mirrors, hypocrisy and biases. ;)
 
Jul 21, 2012
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Honest post. That explains much. Well, I am a fanboy too. But for my defense I was still naive when Ullrich came up...
OTOH, I am no Sky fanboy. I expressed that often enough. If you think I am whining, good. You just didn´t got the point... Let´s stop here and go on with the circus. I play my biased pro Froome game now and then to balance the Sky bashing. Some do their absurd Horner-was-forced-by-Sky to dope talk. Let´s go on about mirrors, hypocrisy and biases. ;)
You played your biased game before Horner came along didnt you? I seem to remember you posted a bunch of nonsense about there being no evidence against Froome, yada yada.

No one who roots for Horner thinks he is cleans. You and the other evidence bots are the hypocrites when you show up here claiming Horner is doping.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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red_flanders said:
So much fail in here. First of all, Sky's absurdity happened well before Horner's ToC win.
That´s news to me. May you can back that up?

BroDeal said:
Dude, it was the Tour of Freakin' California. You know, the race where the only reason anyone of note shows up is to get a tan and ogle the plethora of fake breasts. No matter what Liggett says, it is not the fourth GT. It's not even the tenth GT. You probably could have breached the top ten if you could keep out of the riders' post-race drinking contests.
red_flanders said:
Second, what does a second-rate race in Ca. have to do with anything? Nothing.
Here we go again: Relativization until it fits...

red_flanders said:
Can we have some rational, informed discourse instead of this blanket generalization nonsense? FFS.
No. It was tried before. It just don´t work... Always ends up in fighting over details. I am out of that.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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the sceptic said:
You played your biased game before Horner came along didnt you? I seem to remember you posted a bunch of nonsense about there being no evidence against Froome, yada yada.
You blame me for using the same tactics others did before me? Good try...

the sceptic said:
No one who roots for Horner thinks he is cleans. You and the other evidence bots are the hypocrites when you show up here claiming Horner is doping.
Applause. And many who root for Froome don´t say he is clean...
What´s wrong to call your hero Horner a doper when he is one? Same rights for everyone, as hard as it is for you to swallow.

Anyway guys, have a good day. May I check in here later again...
 

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