When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[Parker]

Courtesy of the brers at the other place, something happened that piqued their interest!

There's a reasonable correlation with this though:

 

[webvan]

Apparently the USADA/Spanish controllers can't read (see below), someone needs to get sued for this, certainly the people who leaked the story to the media :

 

[Von Mises]

I know, otherwise I'd have said it explicitly. Still, 2+2...

No, it is not 2+2. You cannot present Nibali and Ferrari connection as certain fact. Ferrari has been linked to many riders, there have been many confessions, several investigations, phone taps, USADA papers - Nibali has not been mentioned. Thats a fact.

 

[Ferminal]

There's a reasonable correlation with this though:

But no causation. USADA don't test every USA race, and he didn't race in the USA in the first six months of 2013. In 2012 he didn't win or lead any races, so under normal circumstances he would only get done a couple of times there. It's pretty obvious he is being target tested, which is a good thing, but we all know that giving samples is nothing more than an IQ test.

 

[vrusimov]

Horner won't mind if people on this forum suspect him of doping. Everyone's a suspect here, even Voeckler. The result of accusing anybody is that people don't mind anymore when something really absurd happens in cycling, like Horner winning the Vuelta. The non-clinic forum is full of praise for Horner and La Vuelta was voted greatest race of the year.

Nowadays you can divide the followers of cycling into two groups:
1. Those who believe everyone's a doper
2. Those who also believe everyone's a doper, but don't mind.

Oh, now you've gone and missed the third, most important category:

3. Those who believe in miracles!

 

[Cyivel]

But no causation. USADA don't test every USA race, and he didn't race in the USA in the first six months of 2013. In 2012 he didn't win or lead any races, so under normal circumstances he would only get done a couple of times there. It's pretty obvious he is being target tested, which is a good thing, but we all know that giving samples is nothing more than an IQ test.

Yep, for me it's just a case of something happened that made them target test him and it's not a leap to assume it was information they got whilst investigating Lancey.

 

[Ferminal]

Yep, for me it's just a case of something happened that made them target test him and it's not a leap to assume it was information they got whilst investigating Lancey.

http://www.usada.org/athlete-test-history

It seems they are actually testing everyone more these past two years. Horner still the most of the big names but the difference not as big as I expected.

 

[Cyivel]

http://www.usada.org/athlete-test-history

It seems they are actually testing everyone more these past two years. Horner still the most of the big names but the difference not as big as I expected.

Thanks

10c

 

[roundabout]

I am waiting for the Q3 data

 

[neineinei]

So USADA asks the Spanish Anti-doping agency to go test Horner for them at the earliest possible time after UCI's exclusive rights of testing at the Vuelta is over. The Spanish ADA turns up at the hotel which at early Sunday were registered as where Horner would be on Monday. Horner had however changed it in ADAMS before the Sunday stage, and was at the hotel registered in ADAMS. When the Spanish ADA don't find him at the first hotel they don't check ADAMS, they rather goes of to another hotel where they for some reason knows parts of the Radioshack crew are staying, and he isn't there either. Then they leak the information that Horner wasn't where (they thought) he should be to the press. Maybe some heads should roll in the Spanish ADA.

 

[GloryHunter]

I wouldn't be surprised if Radio Shack and the UCI were currently in negotiations, by way of brown envelopes, favors, backhanders and cover ups. The question is. How much will Radio Shack have to cough up to the UCI to add to their ever growing "corrupted offshore accounts".

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

what wonders me most is, the people who think Horner is doped, but Nibali is somehow clean.

Yes Horner beats previous dopers times on Angliru and Pena Cabarga. But Nibali, only 25 seconds slower on Algiru, beats MANY doper era times as well, including 2008 Contador. So did Valverde.. hell Valverde is faster than before his suspension
And that's somehow possibe then..

If you condemn Horner on base of his climbing times, then you should condemn Nibali and Valverde as well..
No prejudices

 

[GloryHunter]

what wonders me most is, the people who think Horner is doped, but Nibali is somehow clean.

Yes Horner beats previous dopers times on Angliru and Pena Cabarga. But Nibali, only 25 seconds slower on Algiru, beats MANY doper era times as well, including 2008 Contador. So did Valverde.. hell Valverde is faster than before his suspension
And that's somehow possibe then..

If you condemn Horner on base of his climbing times, then you should condemn Nibali and Valverde as well..
No prejudices

I honestly don't think that the entire top 10 are clean, or even 20, perhaps more. But there is no way to prove it.

 

[blackcat]

I think of it as how much are the riders insulting the intelligence of those who know riders dope. Lately they've been setting new peaks in how far they're willing to go.

not right.

it is rhetoric. They are not insulting your intelligence, even as a euphemism. There is a meta narrative. A nod-wink. That acknowledges doping. They are not speaking to you as a knowledgable insider. They are speaking to the outsiders, who follow the Tour in their caravans and Winnebagos and SRVs and backpacking tents, who think that tests=clean. All the more fool to them, if they do not invest in understanding what they are watching.

caveat emptor

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Horner won't mind if people on this forum suspect him of doping. Everyone's a suspect here, even Voeckler. The result of accusing anybody is that people don't mind anymore when something really absurd happens in cycling, like Horner winning the Vuelta. The non-clinic forum is full of praise for Horner and La Vuelta was voted greatest race of the year.

Nowadays you can divide the followers of cycling into two groups:
1. Those who believe everyone's a doper
2. Those who also believe everyone's a doper, but don't mind.

Complete nonsense.

If there was only the 2 options then this thread would barely make it the second page. Horners first week exploits were hardly mentioned but the last week has rightly been discussed.

 

[pastronef]

Apparently the USADA/Spanish controllers can't read (see below), someone needs to get sued for this, certainly the people who leaked the story to the media :

here in Italy the "no show at doping control" made the front page obviously.

someone needs to get sued for sure

 

[Galic Ho]

No, it is not 2+2. You cannot present Nibali and Ferrari connection as certain fact. Ferrari has been linked to many riders, there have been many confessions, several investigations, phone taps, USADA papers - Nibali has not been mentioned. Thats a fact.

Did you ever read this years ago?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pellizotti-and-nibali-deny-working-with-ferrari

It's quite funny to read now after this years Giro. No wonder Pellizotti joined Vini-Fantini. Things changed.

 

[Galic Ho]

not right.

it is rhetoric. They are not insulting your intelligence, even as a euphemism. There is a meta narrative. A nod-wink. That acknowledges doping. They are not speaking to you as a knowledgable insider. They are speaking to the outsiders, who follow the Tour in their caravans and Winnebagos and SRVs and backpacking tents, who think that tests=clean. All the more fool to them, if they do not invest in understanding what they are watching.

caveat emptor

Agree. They're not insulting my intelligence, I can see it for what it is.

Rhetoric is a nice way of describing it all. It's all PR and they take a broad stroke brush and do their thing. See Horner's speech atop Angliru. But despite the outsiders you mention who are either stupid, naive or simple too caught up on their holiday to care, a large portion of core followers do know.

Ain't gonna change though. We're stuck with it and like you said, many won't invest in what they're watching. I know from my own relatives...they still latch onto what clueless people like Tomolaris and the lying Henk Vogels spew out. Actually, talk about doping and cheating ANNOYS some of these people. Their brains are wired differently. Oh well.

Good point though BC. I worded my post poorly.

 

[goggalor]

Apparently the USADA/Spanish controllers can't read (see below), someone needs to get sued for this, certainly the people who leaked the story to the media :

It says in in capitals at the very beginning of the email not to reply to that email address. They also give him plenty of ways to update his info, yet he sends an email to a ****ing bot. Horner is full of ****, this screen shot confirms it.

 

[blackcat]

If you condemn Horner on base of his climbing times, then you should condemn Nibali and Valverde as well..
No prejudices

right right right

I honestly don't think that the entire top 10 are clean, or even 20, perhaps more. But there is no way to prove it.

implicit is your premise of proof. i know the history of cycling, i know of Ferrari's magic power/weight ration, and i even have doubt that Lemond was the only Tour rider never to dope.

i used my brain to deduce the reality.

and no value judgements. if folks stop transferring their own prejudice of doping in cycling, they will appreciate an analysis of doping IS NOT a character defamation

 

[goggalor]

nvm got it wrong

 

[webbie146]

Ferrari on Horner:

"Maybe Vincenzo Nibali made a mistake in trying to drop Chris Horner for good on the treacherous ramps of the Angliru: in the last 25 minutes of climbing, the italian launched 6 very violent accelerations, to which Horner did not respond, continuing with a steady pace and always gently closing on the Astana rider.
The accelerations did cost treasures of glycogen (drained by the 19 carburetors triggered by anaerobic combustion) and indeed it was a wise choice for Chris to keep cool and rely on his aerobic power, which was likely higher than that of Nibali for the whole of this uncertain Vuelta.
In my opinion Nibali should have waited the last few meters of the stage, placing a single violent and decisive acceleration, since the two contenders were separated by just three seconds anyway.

The ascent of the Angliru was preceded by the Alto de Cordal (5km at 10%), which was done at 1800m/h (6.00 w/kg), and such pace surely was felt in the legs of almost all the protagonists.

Horner won the Angliru in 42'00", VAM = 1778 m/h, 5.92 w/kg with Nibali and Valverde not far off: 42'18", thus completing the podium of this Vuelta 2013.
Once again the extreme slopes (over 15%) penalize VAM: when the speed is so low the accelerations/decelerations are greatly accentuated with each pedal stroke, involving an extra expenditure of energy.
And once again such extreme climbs have resulted in smaller gaps between the riders at the finish, compared to climbs of similar length, but with gradient more suited to road cycling.

The repeated climbing performances of Horner raised the usual concert of suspicions: "Experts and Pundits" dared venturing into treacherous terrain, not very well known to them.

It is especially the performance of Pena Cabarga (545m of elevation at 9%) that triggered the Reviewers: VAM = 1958 m/h - 6.75 w/kg - 378w (assuming Horner's weight to be 56kg).
I remind you that this performance was achieved in 16'42" of effort, partly behind the wheels of other riders, at sea level and Horner himself had already expressed similar performances in the past (see "Horner Vs Contador", my comment of 2011).
The same Nibali, whose form did not seem to match the one shown in the recent Giro d' Italia, managed to perform at similar levels, if somewhat lower: 1912 m/h - 6.59 w/kg - 415w (with 63kg of body weight).

Chris Horner is an "atypical" cyclist, with the physical conformation of a child with narrow pelvis, his ultra-light weight allows him to ride for long stretches out of the saddle, pushing long gear ratios and adopting far too low cadences (50 RPM in some sections on the Angliru), a feature that obviously suits his style but that probably he has specifically trained (Esasperazione delle Andature, I use to call it).

Horner deservedly won the Vuelta which saw a lot of uphill finishes, almost all at low altitude, facing riders who had previously engaged 100% in the TdF (Valverde, Rodriguez) or the Giro (Nibali), and who appeared not at their highest level of form, confirming that in this cycling, hysterically "needle-free", it is almost impossible to have two peaks of top condition in the same season."

 

[blackcat]

Horner actually turns to the camera and talks to it....like he's Bill Clinton.

"As you folks sit at home you got to see something you may never get to see accomplished ever again in your life.

I hope all of you enjoyed every pedal stroke of every suffering I did all the way to the finish. I hope you loved every moment the same way that I did"


https://www.itv.com/itvplayer/cycling-la-vuelta-a-espana/series-4/episode-20

that's the funniest sporting speech I,ve ever seen and heard.

breaks the fourth wall.

chapeau chris.

yeah he doped, they all were, yeah, he must be on an equivalent of a 60 crit to break records on angliru, but hey, he rode it, he won, he's still alive.

so the new stuff he is flying on, that give him an equivalent engine of a 60 crit, this gives chris a win. well done mate.

<serious post>

 

[TomasC]

Judging from the e-mail - there has to be another person manually entering the whereabouts info sent by e-mail into the system. I wonder if there's 24/7 support or just 5/8?

 

[Ferminal]

Oh, that reminds me of this gem:

"In the stage with the finish in Bergamo, on the Colle del Gallo (6.2 km at 7%, with an altitude between 328 and 763m) we have seen a small group formed by excellent riders such as Garzelli, Cunego, Pellizotti, Horner, Rogers, Leipheimer attack and literally devour the 435m of climbing in 14'11", with a resulting VAM = 1838 m/h, corresponding on such a gradient to an excellent 6.8 w/kg."