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When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

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Dekker_Tifosi said:
what wonders me most is, the people who think Horner is doped, but Nibali is somehow clean.

Yes Horner beats previous dopers times on Angliru and Pena Cabarga. But Nibali, only 25 seconds slower on Algiru, beats MANY doper era times as well, including 2008 Contador. So did Valverde.. hell Valverde is faster than before his suspension :eek:
And that's somehow possibe then..

If you condemn Horner on base of his climbing times, then you should condemn Nibali and Valverde as well..
No prejudices

Except there are other factors to the times. And as much as noone is saying nibali is clean , it's still ridiculous to think that nibali on the same stuff as horner results in nibali 25 seconds slower.

Saying that horner is ridiculously doped is NOT saying that nibali and piti are clean. But that clearly horner is suddenly on something special. ( or he was always clean and that's just him on a bit of dope, but believing this and still accusing the "peak age" top riders of doping the same way does not compute )

And in many ways the times of valverde purito and nibali are somewhat results of the crazy time of horner. Had horner not been so strong, I personally don't think we would have seen an ascension nearly as quick.
 
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i have never seen an inverted attack. I always thought Cancellara should do the inverted attack if he and Boonen were off the front by one minute. Just give a Boonen (see Nibali) ten seconds, cos you cannot beat him in a sprint, and from 30km to 10km let him ride in the wind, tend kms ahead of you, then 10kms out, take back that ten seconds, them and then smash Boonen at 7kms out and beat him solo off the front. Cancellara will never beat Boonen in a mano a mano sprint. And Nibali would have beaten Horner over the last 2kms and that snaky descent, or if they came to the finish together, a lighter horner would have given Nibali about 1 second gap over the last 200metres in a sprint.
webbie146 said:
Ferrari on Horner:

"Maybe Vincenzo Nibali made a mistake in trying to drop Chris Horner for good on the treacherous ramps of the Angliru: in the last 25 minutes of climbing, the italian launched 6 very violent accelerations, to which Horner did not respond, continuing with a steady pace and always gently closing on the Astana rider.
The accelerations did cost treasures of glycogen (drained by the 19 carburetors triggered by anaerobic combustion) and indeed it was a wise choice for Chris to keep cool and rely on his aerobic power, which was likely higher than that of Nibali for the whole of this uncertain Vuelta.
In my opinion Nibali should have waited the last few meters of the stage, placing a single violent and decisive acceleration, since the two contenders were separated by just three seconds anyway.

The ascent of the Angliru was preceded by the Alto de Cordal (5km at 10%), which was done at 1800m/h (6.00 w/kg), and such pace surely was felt in the legs of almost all the protagonists.

Horner won the Angliru in 42'00", VAM = 1778 m/h, 5.92 w/kg with Nibali and Valverde not far off: 42'18", thus completing the podium of this Vuelta 2013.
Once again the extreme slopes (over 15%) penalize VAM: when the speed is so low the accelerations/decelerations are greatly accentuated with each pedal stroke, involving an extra expenditure of energy.
And once again such extreme climbs have resulted in smaller gaps between the riders at the finish, compared to climbs of similar length, but with gradient more suited to road cycling.

The repeated climbing performances of Horner raised the usual concert of suspicions: "Experts and Pundits" dared venturing into treacherous terrain, not very well known to them.

It is especially the performance of Pena Cabarga (545m of elevation at 9%) that triggered the Reviewers: VAM = 1958 m/h - 6.75 w/kg - 378w (assuming Horner's weight to be 56kg).
I remind you that this performance was achieved in 16'42" of effort, partly behind the wheels of other riders, at sea level and Horner himself had already expressed similar performances in the past (see "Horner Vs Contador", my comment of 2011).
The same Nibali, whose form did not seem to match the one shown in the recent Giro d' Italia, managed to perform at similar levels, if somewhat lower: 1912 m/h - 6.59 w/kg - 415w (with 63kg of body weight).

Chris Horner is an "atypical" cyclist, with the physical conformation of a child with narrow pelvis, his ultra-light weight allows him to ride for long stretches out of the saddle, pushing long gear ratios and adopting far too low cadences (50 RPM in some sections on the Angliru), a feature that obviously suits his style but that probably he has specifically trained (Esasperazione delle Andature, I use to call it).

Horner deservedly won the Vuelta which saw a lot of uphill finishes, almost all at low altitude, facing riders who had previously engaged 100% in the TdF (Valverde, Rodriguez) or the Giro (Nibali), and who appeared not at their highest level of form, confirming that in this cycling, hysterically "needle-free", it is almost impossible to have two peaks of top condition in the same season."
 
Dekker_Tifosi said:
what wonders me most is, the people who think Horner is doped, but Nibali is somehow clean.

Yes Horner beats previous dopers times on Angliru and Pena Cabarga. But Nibali, only 25 seconds slower on Algiru, beats MANY doper era times as well, including 2008 Contador. So did Valverde.. hell Valverde is faster than before his suspension :eek:
And that's somehow possibe then..

If you condemn Horner on base of his climbing times, then you should condemn Nibali and Valverde as well..
No prejudices

The times that came out at the start were horner 43.08 which was 4 seconds faster than Contador so if Nibali was 25 seconds down he was not faster than Contador.
 
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lemoogle said:
And in many ways the times of valverde purito and nibali are somewhat results of the crazy time of horner. Had horner not been so strong, I personally don't think we would have seen an ascension nearly as quick.

This might be true, but the other riders still had to lay down the requisite horsepower. Horner's presence wouldn't increase another rider's capabilities, though it might increase their motivation, as it's always easier to kill yourself following a rider in front than to kill yourself riding sole / on the front.
 
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blackcat said:
right right right



implicit is your premise of proof. i know the history of cycling, i know of Ferrari's magic power/weight ration, and i even have doubt that Lemond was the only Tour rider never to dope.

i used my brain to deduce the reality.

and no value judgements. if folks stop transferring their own prejudice of doping in cycling, they will appreciate an analysis of doping IS NOT a character defamation

Doping is because of circumstance and opportunity, it exists and it is effective. The motives behind it are to win at all cost. And for the sponsors to gain financially, which could also be viewed as a kind of winning advantage. This may have baring on a person's character, but not necessarily. I think doping correlates with a high self esteem. Like Armstrong being a classic example, a top dog. (that's not necessarily said as a value judgement either, just an observation) and many have prejudices over his conduct, which correlates to his character type. And as we have seen with the sad story of Graeme Obree, he has a very low self esteem, so put a different value on himself doping. I think both a very low and conversely very high self-esteem people are what the good sport of cycling could do without.
 
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blackcat said:
i have never seen an inverted attack. I always thought Cancellara should do the inverted attack if he and Boonen were off the front by one minute. Just give a Boonen (see Nibali) ten seconds, cos you cannot beat him in a sprint, and from 30km to 10km let him ride in the wind, tend kms ahead of you, then 10kms out, take back that ten seconds, them and then smash Boonen at 7kms out and beat him solo off the front. Cancellara will never beat Boonen in a mano a mano sprint. And Nibali would have beaten Horner over the last 2kms and that snaky descent, or if they came to the finish together, a lighter horner would have given Nibali about 1 second gap over the last 200metres in a sprint.

Nibali's tactics were generally off. He had too bodies up the road but they did join him until Horner had got back to him, and given he only had to grab 3 seconds he didn't need a launch an attack a long way out, as Ferrari pointed out. I guess he felt he needed to break him early rather than face a counter-attack from Horner, as Horner eventually did, late on in the stage. Good reading from Ferrari.
 
JimmyFingers said:
Nibali's tactics were generally off. He had too bodies up the road but they did join him until Horner had got back to him, and given he only had to grab 3 seconds he didn't need a launch an attack a long way out, as Ferrari pointed out. I guess he felt he needed to break him early rather than face a counter-attack from Horner, as Horner eventually did, late on in the stage. Good reading from Ferrari.
The usefulness of teammates in the final section of the Angliru is extremely limited, and Horner had beaten Nibali every day in shorter efforts. Doing what he did was his only chance.
 
JimmyFingers said:
Nibali's tactics were generally off. He had too bodies up the road but they did join him until Horner had got back to him, and given he only had to grab 3 seconds he didn't need a launch an attack a long way out, as Ferrari pointed out. I guess he felt he needed to break him early rather than face a counter-attack from Horner, as Horner eventually did, late on in the stage. Good reading from Ferrari.

Indeed. He needed to be able to bridge to Tiralongo and then Fuglsang shortly after his main attack at ~5km to go. Or just wait. It was dramatic stuff but the attacks after that were quite desperate from Nibali.

Astana got caught between two tactics, they let a big break go with the right riders from their team in it, but failed to use them effectively in the finale. And having so many up the road closed off the option of Nibali trying to follow Horner and taking the time bonuses.
 
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hrotha said:
The usefulness of teammates in the final section of the Angliru is extremely limited, and Horner had beaten Nibali every day in shorter efforts. Doing what he did was his only chance.

I thought that too, with such steep ramps, but teammates could help stiffen the resolve when the legs are screaming, and also act as a slight obstacle for Horner to go around. But as you say, limited. But then why send them up the road then? They might have been useful on the early ramps.

He only had to grab 3 seconds. He managed 9 at one point, before Horner clawed it back. That was at about 5-6k to go, had he waited and launched a much later attack within the last 1-2k he might had made it stick. As it was was he attacked Horner again and again, couldn't break the elastic, then Horner rode away because Nibali was cooked.

Which enabled Valverde and Rodriguez who rode tempo at the climb to come back also. Indeed Valverde looked to be dropped and still managed to ride back.
 
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
If you condemn Horner on base of his climbing times, then you should condemn Nibali and Valverde as well..
No prejudices


But Nibali has "panache". He's Italian. He gets a pass! That Evil American, though. Did you see how he rode out of the saddle in a big gear? SACRILEGE!

/s

"Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope." - Anquetil
 
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Ferminal said:
I don't get it, there's nothing Nibali could have done differently (since the Pyrenees) to win the race.
he could have attempted to have Astana bring back the break so it was gonna be Nibs v CH for the win, and instead of attempting to drop CH, using the intelligence on the previous 19 stages, just play for riding in CH's splipstream for the sprint. OK, no slipstream on 20% climb. But he should have forfeited the climbing ascendancy to CH, and just played him for the finish. Not for the climb. He would have been able to attack him on the downhill over the last 1500m and take 3 seconds without even the bonification seconds. And a Nibali about 6 kgs heavier than Horner, woulda pumped him in the sprint.

So there were oppurtunities, that did not involve riding Horner off his wheel on the climb, and breaking him, or making him blow up. He could have beaten him, without dropping him, especially after the intelligence on the past 3 weeks.

Ask Simon Gerrans. He is the most intelligent rider in the peloton to sniff out a victory. Rarely is SG the strongest but he may even up with the most comprehensive palmares of a rider from Australia. Evans, Goss, Mcewen, included.
 
blackcat said:
he could have attempted to have Astana bring back the break so it was gonna be Nibs v CH for the win, and instead of attempting to drop CH, using the intelligence on the previous 19 stages, just play for riding in CH's splipstream for the sprint. OK, no slipstream on 20% climb.

That's what I mean, the final three "mountain" stages were not hard enough to be anything other than a single climb "sprint". Any fault of his was not trying on stages which were more his territory (multiple passes, moderate gradients). The idea that he could have stuck with Horner to the top of Angliru had he ridden conservatively is dubious. I'm usually one of the last persons to praise Nibali but I'm sure he personally knows what he is capable of more than I do. At least it would have been confirmed when Horner slowly came across to his initial push at the bottom. From that point he knew Horner would eventually distance him and thus the only possible avenue to victory was to try and panic him.
 
Nibali has no problem with steep gradients actually, and some of his best performances have happened in impossibly steep climbs. It's just that he tends to have a bad day, and sometimes that bad day happened on a stage with steep climbs, but they have happened in stages with moderate or low gradients just as often.
 
hrotha said:
Nibali has no problem with steep gradients actually, and some of his best performances have happened in impossibly steep climbs. It's just that he tends to have a bad day, and sometimes that bad day happened on a stage with steep climbs, but they have happened in stages with moderate or low gradients just as often.

I don't mean it like that, more that moderate gradients mean you can play tactical games (less chance of strongest man winning).
 
hrotha said:
What makes you think he would have been able to stay with Horner if he had ridden the same way as in the previous mountain stages, where Horner beat him easily? He clearly needed a different approach, and that's what he tried.

Well, Nibali in the last week lost on the lesser climbs- Pena Cabarga and the one Barguil won and the one murito won.

In the big mountain stages he looked very comfortable.

It was clear he was much better on Angliru than in the 3 hill finishes before. So imo had he ridden tempo, he would have had a fighting chance.

Similar to 2010 as well when Nibali lost time to Mosquera on 2 straight mountain stages, and everyone expected him to lose again on Bola del Mundo but when it came to the finale he performed better than expected.

Dont know if you watched the stage on TDP or elsewhere, but Perico was saying the same every time Nibali attacked, that this is not the way to ride Angliru.
 
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hrotha said:
What makes you think he would have been able to stay with Horner if he had ridden the same way as in the previous mountain stages, where Horner beat him easily? He clearly needed a different approach, and that's what he tried.

Nothing really, but given he only needed to grab 3 seconds I think he would have had a better chance of grabbing that with a late attack after riding tempo. Just thought he attacked too much and too early.

Moot point anyways, he went for it, he failed, and Pappy just cycled away from him. I was shouting for him as well.
 
The Hitch said:
Well, Nibali in the last week lost on the lesser climbs- Pena Cabarga and the one Barguil won and the one murito won.

In the big mountain stages he looked very comfortable.

It was clear he was much better on Angliru than in the 3 hill finishes before. So imo had he ridden tempo, he would have had a fighting chance.

Similar to 2010 as well when Nibali lost time to Mosquera on 2 straight mountain stages, and everyone expected him to lose again on Bola del Mundo but when it came to the finale he performed better than expected.

Dont know if you watched the stage on TDP or elsewhere, but Perico was saying the same every time Nibali attacked, that this is not the way to ride Angliru.
The problem is that for Nibali staying with Horner was not sufficient. He had to gap him. And I see no evidence he could have made it with a single attack.
Furthermore, his attacks were also meant to try to catch the breakaway so if he couldn't drop Horner he had still the possibility to take the bonus on the sprint. And in order to do so he had to get rid of Purito and Valverde too.
 
Galic Ho said:
Did you ever read this years ago?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pellizotti-and-nibali-deny-working-with-ferrari

It's quite funny to read now after this years Giro. No wonder Pellizotti joined Vini-Fantini. Things changed. ;)

What exactly is your point? You took Ferrari-Nibali connection as a matter of fact, I showed that this is not proven. I am not saying that you cannot bring up this story, but in sake of fairness it is nice to add: it is just one story, not proven, Nibali has denied, there is no single piece of of other direct or indirect evidence linking Nibali to Ferrari.
 

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