When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[TomasC]

Yeah, that's the part where I said I don't know. That said, even an e-mail or text is sufficient according to the rules, as long as it's done in a "timely manner". It's not any more specific than that. Using ADAMS is good, because it documents everything for everyone and removes any questions. I honestly don't know what happens to the e-mails when they're sent, but if the governing body feels it was a deliberate attempt to avoid a test they can issue a 'missed test' or 'inaccurate filing' (they're both 1 strike). And then the rider can appeal if he disagrees with the finding. Again, I'm not really offering an opinion, just clarifying how the protocol works.

It's funny to think that what most probably happened is that Horner sent an e-mail which nobody learnt because it was Sunday (it cannot be automatic because the e-mail does not have any standardized structure). The Spanish testers looked into ADAMS probably on Sunday night and found the hotel where Horner was not. Then all the media frenzy happened and RSNT issued the statement with the screenshot of the e-mail.
Then finally someone at USADA went: "Oh, shouldn't we check the ADAMS e-mail mailbox? Look, yeah, it's here!"

 

[D-Queued]

This graph?

That only shows up to June this year (So you can assume the 2013 total will be high again). USADA have been targetting Horner since early 2012.

Horner’s USADA testing stats do not seem that out of the ordinary when you compare to other rider’s.

years - 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 (up to June 30)
T. Duggan - 9, 7, 13, 6
Bookwalter - 9, 5, 13, 8
L. Euser - 2, 5, 14, 9
Horner - 7, 6, 16, 8

There is a spike in the number of tests between 2011 and 2012 and it could mean USADA is target testing certain riders including Horner. It could also mean that USADA stepped up their testing program for cycling in general and some riders have a few more tests than others.

USADA asking the Spanish anti-doping authorities to test him looks suspicious though.

Olympic year anyone...?

He was a member of the London squad.

Dave.

 

[doolols]

As an aside, does anyone know what the purpose of an OOC test of the winner immediately after the finish of a stage race is supposed to be?

Maybe they don't have any faith in the UCI actually reporting an adverse finding? It's happened (allegedly) before with an American on an American team

 

[patrick767]

Reading his twitter feed now... does Vayer always sound completely unhinged?

I'm not passing a judgment on his past analysis of riders. I don't know one way or the other. His twitter posts just seem unhinged.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Reading his twitter feed now... does Vayer always sound completely unhinged?

I'm not passing a judgment on his past analysis of riders. I don't know one way or the other. His twitter posts just seem unhinged.

Vayer needs to get someone to translate his tweets because I agree they are completely illegible. Even Bing translate could do the job.

 

[jilbiker]

Micro-dosing is so yesterday's news

I really think the doping market has moved to another level. People seem stuck in this envelope that the only way to dope successfully has to be blood re-injection. Either micro or full blast back. Its so old news. Genetic engineering, cloning and several other strange experiments are going on to produce super-humans.

I am convinced that Horner's legs at the Vuelta were NOT human, there were either robotic legs, or legs with the blood and nerves frozen in time. His riding non-seated for endless Km uphill is not natural, even Mr super-dope LA never did that, no blood re-injection can do that. You can test Horner all you want, you won't find anything. Unless someone sends the agency a sample of this drug no one will find it. Besides it is not illegal if it is not on the DO-NOT list right? Well it isn't on the list.

The dopers unfortunately are 2-3 steps ahead of the agencies. The ONLY way I think agencies can catch these folks is a biological passport AND the definition of what is a normal profile and an acceptable anormally. WADA has announced that is in the works and I think the sooner its implemented, the better.

Oh, and I also think Froome's juice is NOT on the list. That is why when these cyclists say I was not juicing, my results are genuine, I did not use anything illegal, they are speaking the truth. Dump the list thing and the blood thing. i think the Spanish Amarda is still in the blood thing, so old news.

 

[pastronef]

USADA: Horner not at fault over missed test

...“Mr. Horner properly updated his whereabouts information in advance of the test attempt, but given that the information was received in the U.S., the AEA doping control officer on the ground in Spain did not receive the updated information prior to arriving at the hotel.”...

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/usada-horner-not-at-fault-over-missed-test_303095

 

[ToreBear]

Horner’s USADA testing stats do not seem that out of the ordinary when you compare to other rider’s.

years - 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 (up to June 30)
T. Duggan - 9, 7, 13, 6
Bookwalter - 9, 5, 13, 8
L. Euser - 2, 5, 14, 9
Horner - 7, 6, 16, 8

There is a spike in the number of tests between 2011 and 2012 and it could mean USADA is target testing certain riders including Horner. It could also mean that USADA stepped up their testing program for cycling in general and some riders have a few more tests than others.

USADA asking the Spanish anti-doping authorities to test him looks suspicious though.

According to the Usada site:
http://www.usada.org/athlete-test-history

This search includes all in- and out-of-competition tests on U.S. athletes conducted under USADA's Olympic, Paralympic, Pan American, and Parapan American movements testing program. This search will also include tests conducted on U.S. athletes training internationally by other testing entities when the request for the test was made by USADA. This search will not yield results conducted on U.S. athletes by other testing entities, if the test was not requested or initiated by USADA, or tests conducted by USADA at the request of other sport organizations, events, international federations or individuals. Because of these exclusions, the total numbers below are less than the numbers reported as USADA's total testing numbers located here. This resource is intended to be used to determine the number of times USADA has organized a test on an individual athlete and is not an accurate representation of USADA's total testing numbers or the total number of anti-doping tests an athlete will undergo by other and all testing and sport organizations. For USADA total testing numbers, please click here. For questions or clarification please contact USADA's communication department at media[at]usada.org or by phone at 719-785-2046 or 719-785-2047.

So we are likely talking in competition testing where USADA has authority as well as out of competition testing. Those who race a lot in the US I would think be more likely to have more tests done on them.

 

[cycladianpirate]

I really think the doping market has moved to another level. People seem stuck in this envelope that the only way to dope successfully has to be blood re-injection. Either micro or full blast back. Its so old news. Genetic engineering, cloning and several other strange experiments are going on to produce super-humans.

I am convinced that Horner's legs at the Vuelta were NOT human, there were either robotic legs, or legs with the blood and nerves frozen in time. His riding non-seated for endless Km uphill is not natural, even Mr super-dope LA never did that, no blood re-injection can do that. You can test Horner all you want, you won't find anything. Unless someone sends the agency a sample of this drug no one will find it. Besides it is not illegal if it is not on the DO-NOT list right? Well it isn't on the list.

The dopers unfortunately are 2-3 steps ahead of the agencies. The ONLY way I think agencies can catch these folks is a biological passport AND the definition of what is a normal profile and an acceptable anormally. WADA has announced that is in the works and I think the sooner its implemented, the better.

Oh, and I also think Froome's juice is NOT on the list. That is why when these cyclists say I was not juicing, my results are genuine, I did not use anything illegal, they are speaking the truth. Dump the list thing and the blood thing. i think the Spanish Amarda is still in the blood thing, so old news.

It's an interesting concept. Who knows? Could we see a commentator in fits of hysteria lauding a rider crossing the line first using "only" EPO? Making the "courageous decision" only to juice "traditionally".....

 

[webvan]

USADA: Horner not at fault over missed test

...“Mr. Horner properly updated his whereabouts information in advance of the test attempt, but given that the information was received in the U.S., the AEA doping control officer on the ground in Spain did not receive the updated information prior to arriving at the hotel.”...

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/usada-horner-not-at-fault-over-missed-test_303095

Yep, common sense prevails...naturally no clinic aficionado is going to be wanting to discuss that as it goes against the "grain", to put it mildly. Let the wild, baseless, hateful speculation go on!

 

[D-Queued]

.... His riding non-seated for endless Km uphill is not natural, even Mr super-dope LA never did that, no blood re-injection can do that. ....

Well, actually mr. super-dope did.

How about a Ligget-ism?

"Armstrong out of the saddle all of the time now, dancing on his pedals, keeping his perpetual cadence going that DESTROYS the bike riders around the world."

His out-of-the-saddle technique was so extreme that at least one group decided to teach people how to do it:

Learn Lance Armstrong's climbing technique

Maybe Horner took the lessons?

Of course, it was bizarre then and is bizarre now.

Not like the bizarre is good evidence of doping.

Super high cadence
Extensive out-of-the-saddle climbing

Nothing suspicious. Move along. Move along.

Dave.

 

[frenchfry]

I think the point is that there is a lot of venom about Horner on the interwebs right now and no one is saying jack about Nibali. Comes with the territory of course, but while I doubt many think Nibali is clean, no one's going on the warpath about it.

Not a big deal I think.

Basically just a bunch of Sky fans who have been hearing their boy is a doper for the last couple of years desperately looking for a performance to get incensed about. That Horner is an old man and an American fits the bill. Most of the Badzilla detractors are from the US, though of course anyone with 2 eyes is laughing. There just happen to be a lot of Americans on this site.

Fan is short for fanatic and all that. It's all good fun.

After all it was Horner who won the Vuelta, not Nibali. And it is Horner who is almost 42, not Nibali. So why should Nibali be getting more heat? I get the impression most of those who think Horner is on the sauce feel more or less the same about Nibali so it isn't like he is getting a free pass either.

 

[_nm___]

They didn't get there before 7am, which is why Horner just left for the airport.

My question is that since someone at Radioshack, at the team hotel, told the testers where Horner was actually staying, why didn't they call up Horner and tell him the testers had screwed up but were on their way? Wouldn't it have been a good idea for Horner to stick around for another 15-20 minutes just to avoid the present media storm?

wasn't he tested yesterday?

 

[TheGame]

According to the Usada site:
http://www.usada.org/athlete-test-history



So we are likely talking in competition testing where USADA has authority as well as out of competition testing. Those who race a lot in the US I would think be more likely to have more tests done on them.

Which races does USADA have the authority to do in competition testing at?

A) Tour of California
B) Tour of UTAH
C) Tour of Colorado
D) All of the Above
E) None of the Above

 

[ToreBear]

Which races does USADA have the authority to do in competition testing at?

A) Tour of California
B) Tour of UTAH
C) Tour of Colorado
D) All of the Above
E) None of the Above

I'm unsure of A) since I think that is a 2hc race, but they had authority at B), and likely any other races below 2hc.

 

[zebedee]

I really think the doping market has moved to another level. People seem stuck in this envelope that the only way to dope successfully has to be blood re-injection. Either micro or full blast back. Its so old news. Genetic engineering, cloning and several other strange experiments are going on to produce super-humans.

I am convinced that Horner's legs at the Vuelta were NOT human, there were either robotic legs, or legs with the blood and nerves frozen in time. His riding non-seated for endless Km uphill is not natural, even Mr super-dope LA never did that, no blood re-injection can do that. You can test Horner all you want, you won't find anything. Unless someone sends the agency a sample of this drug no one will find it. Besides it is not illegal if it is not on the DO-NOT list right? Well it isn't on the list.

The dopers unfortunately are 2-3 steps ahead of the agencies. The ONLY way I think agencies can catch these folks is a biological passport AND the definition of what is a normal profile and an acceptable anormally. WADA has announced that is in the works and I think the sooner its implemented, the better.

Oh, and I also think Froome's juice is NOT on the list. That is why when these cyclists say I was not juicing, my results are genuine, I did not use anything illegal, they are speaking the truth. Dump the list thing and the blood thing. i think the Spanish Amarda is still in the blood thing, so old news.

Reminds me of Bill Clinton's hoary old canard, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman!" By his limited reasoning, he didn't.

 

[Orvieto]

I would suspect they wanted a blood measurement for the biopassport.
He probably only had urine tests since the 2nd rest day.

This exactly. If Horner was blood doping he wouldn't want the Monday after his Grand Tour win as a data point on his blood passport, better to fly home asap. It's much easier to fix your blood values back home.

He has to linger in Madrid for half a day post win, but a last minute whereabouts change should handle that.

How long ago did he book the hotel? If Chris is publishing screenshots, can we get one of his hotel reservation confirmation?

 

[coinneach]

This exactly. If Horner was blood doping he wouldn't want the Monday after his Grand Tour win as a data point on his blood passport, better to fly home asap. It's much easier to fix your blood values back home.

He has to linger in Madrid for half a day post win, but a last minute whereabouts change should handle that.

How long ago did he book the hotel? If Chris is publishing screenshots, can we get one of his hotel reservation confirmation?

No...all wrong

He had blood test during last week
The hotel change was not last minute but 20 hours earlier
He went to stay with his wife: does it matter when she booked the room?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

This exactly. If Horner was blood doping he wouldn't want the Monday after his Grand Tour win as a data point on his blood passport, better to fly home asap. It's much easier to fix your blood values back home.

He has to linger in Madrid for half a day post win, but a last minute whereabouts change should handle that.

How long ago did he book the hotel? If Chris is publishing screenshots, can we get one of his hotel reservation confirmation?

Even if he made that reservation change that same Sunday morning, he emailed notification to the USADA about 20 hours before the Monday 6-7 am window in which he would be available.

In this day and age of 7/24 connectivity, that seems more than reasonable.

 

[Rhapsody]

His team posted evidence that he received an automated response that his e-mail stating his whereabouts change was received. USADA had the information about the change. USADA requested the test. Shouldn't USADA also have verified that the testers knew of the change in location of the testee? Just to be sure the test could be carried out properly? Or could they possibly have been more interested in him "missing" the test?

I'm neither for or against Horner as winner of the Vuelta, but simply from a clerical standpoint this development seems suspicious -- not on Chris Horner's part but on USADA's and the Spanish testers'.

 

[drfunk000]

I'm not sure you need to keep arguing about it. USADA has already admitted it was a screw up and won't be counted as a missed test. I suppose someone will show up at Horner's door as soon as he makes it home.

 

[hrotha]

I'm not sure you need to keep arguing about it. USADA has already admitted it was a screw up and won't be counted as a missed test. I suppose someone will show up at Horner's door as soon as he makes it home.

There's the misconception that it's alright as long as someone gets tested before or after missing a test. That's not the case. You don't need much time to make sure your blood values will look normal and there won't be any strange substances in your blood.

So yeah, it doesn't look like this was Horner trying to dodge a test, but the underlying idea is, it does matter when the test is conducted.

 

[sniper]

at least usada are after the guy.
when was the last time any NADA went after a guy from their own country?

and same cannot be said about uci.
we still don't know how/why uci's passport software couldn't single out horner.
(or why horner was a zero on the 2010 suspicion index, though this is less relevant)

 

[gooner]

There's the misconception that it's alright as long as someone gets tested before or after missing a test. That's not the case. You don't need much time to make sure your blood values will look normal and there won't be any strange substances in your blood.

So yeah, it doesn't look like this was Horner trying to dodge a test, but the underlying idea is, it does matter when the test is conducted.

All it would take is for someone to take a saline infusion in the meantime like Lance did.

 

[The Hitch]

Bit of humour from MR ****meister. A blogger who is a heavy cynic on cycling and life in general, and a great writer.

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2013/09/15/all-doped-up-and-nowhere-to-go/