When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[131313]

It's funny to think that what most probably happened is that Horner sent an e-mail which nobody learnt because it was Sunday (it cannot be automatic because the e-mail does not have any standardized structure). The Spanish testers looked into ADAMS probably on Sunday night and found the hotel where Horner was not. Then all the media frenzy happened and RSNT issued the statement with the screenshot of the e-mail.

Actually, it does have a standard structure; it a) has to be sent to the specific USADA e-mail address which is only for updating whereabouts, and b) it has to be sent from the e-mail address on file for the rider. That info should be then set up to be automatically forwarded to a rider's ADAMS profile. My understanding in all those booklets they make you read is that if you don't do this on your end, it ends up counting as a filing infraction. And you have to do it precisely because it is automated and time-sensitive.

I would think that if USADA isn't counting this as a missed test, he probably did everything right on his end.

 

[Orvieto]

No...all wrong

He had blood test during last week
The hotel change was not last minute but 20 hours earlier
He went to stay with his wife: does it matter when she booked the room?

I'm only half serious when I ask for a screenshot of the reservation. I think it's hilarious that Radio Shack sent a copy of an email. I see this tactic used all the time by lackadaisical coworkers, a CYA email sent at a time of day when nobody is monitoring the inbox. See I sent you an email, they say, first thing monday morning, I was going to get that work done for you, but I needed you to answer that one question I sent to you Sunday morning. Classic.
In the world of hotels a same day reservation is a last minute reservation. If he booked the room and made the decision to stay there on Sunday morning, then that's a nice prompt whereabouts change. If he knew he was going to stay there a week ago then he's just playing the system, even if it's just to have a laugh at the testers.

 

[thrawn]

Bit of humour from MR ****meister. A blogger who is a heavy cynic on cycling and life in general, and a great writer.

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2013/09/15/all-doped-up-and-nowhere-to-go/

Made me chuckle.

 

[FunkyChamois]

The hotel looks nice. Nice and modern, probably really quiet.

 

[Oldman]

I'm not sure you need to keep arguing about it. USADA has already admitted it was a screw up and won't be counted as a missed test. I suppose someone will show up at Horner's door as soon as he makes it home.

As noted before: Bend has lot's of dead spots for certain cell carriers...His phone of record may not be the one along for the ride.

 

[ghostofjoy]

Bit of humour from MR ****meister. A blogger who is a heavy cynic on cycling and life in general, and a great writer.

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2013/09/15/all-doped-up-and-nowhere-to-go/

actually, i would love to chris enter a cbr masters crit and catch out someone like kayle leogrande ala hincapie on champs elysees.

cool blog though, never read it before.

 

[Ferminal]

That's the only way it works when you go to test a rider who's currently out of your jurisdiction. For riders who are US-based but racing in Europe, it's actually pretty common.

The four UCI OoC tests a year aren't satisfactory? Would be interesting to see how USADA's testing ranks against other NADOs. Seems that USADA is the only one with detailed statistics though.

 

[Scott SoCal]

actually, i would love to chris enter a cbr masters crit and catch out someone like kayle leogrande ala hincapie on champs elysees.

cool blog though, never read it before.

Unless something's changed, Lotts doesn't allow past dopers at his races.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The hotel looks nice. Nice and modern, probably really quiet.

Horner has interns already?

 

[131313]

The four UCI OoC tests a year aren't satisfactory? Would be interesting to see how USADA's testing ranks against other NADOs. Seems that USADA is the only one with detailed statistics though.

I can't speak to that besides anecdote, but the guys with foreign licenses living and competing in the states have commented that they're never tested OOC, like ever. And keep in mind there are a fair number of guys here competing w/foreign licenses.

 

[sittingbison]

Horner has interns already?

Now now play the ball Hugh.

FC is a n00b by self admission, give him a chance to show his spots.

 

[Spider1964]

I have no opinion on Horner doping (or not) because I just don't know.

I have massive suspicions about a Cat 3 winning his 1st GT at age 42.

But Horner hasn't exactly beaten a field that targeted this GT as their seasons major goal?

To my mind it was a massive opportunity for a lesser rider to win a GT.

Riders in Top 10 who have already competed in a GT this year -

Vincenzo Nibali
Alejandro Valverde Belmonte
Joaquim Rodriguez Oliver
Nicolas Roche
Domenico Pozzovivo
Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez
Daniel Moreno Fernandez

Riders in Top 10 competing in 1st GT for year -
Thibaut Pinot
Leopold Konig

Horner is 42>Suspicious.
Horner is skinnier than he's ever been>Suspicious.
Horner is a noted climber, albeit never given the lead role in a GT>Opportunity.
Horner has had a light season, so comes in fresh (apart from Tirreno Adriatico in March, he has only raced Tour of Utah and Vuelta)>Opportunity.
Weak or Tired opposition>Opportunity.

He doesn't necessarily have to be doped to the gills to beat that Top 10.

 

[sniper]

why are radioshack giving false weight indications for horner?

The team insists that he’s racing the Vuelta between 141 and 143 pounds (64-65kg), but he appears to be thinner than that.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/analysis-pro-cycling-remains-a-faith-game_303005

quite a transparent attempt by radioshack to smother what they know are perfectly legitimate doping accusations.

 

[sittingbison]

As I said on the power data thread, his own wiki page updated only yesterday lists him at 63.5kg

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

I have no opinion on Horner doping (or not) because I just don't know.

I have massive suspicions about a Cat 3 winning his 1st GT at age 42.

But Horner hasn't exactly beaten a field that targeted this GT as their seasons major goal?

To my mind it was a massive opportunity for a lesser rider to win a GT.

You ignore his ascent times, though. He now has the record on Peña Cabarga, 2nd fastest ever on Angliru, beating **** loads of obviously juiced riders, and a ridiculous performance up Hazallanas to top it off. Explain that.

 

[coinneach]

monitor weight as well as blood values

why are radioshack giving false weight indications for horner?


http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/analysis-pro-cycling-remains-a-faith-game_303005

quite a transparent attempt by radioshack to smother what they know are perfectly legitimate doping accusations.

Its a good article.

Can I make a suggestion?

Why not check the weigh of the riders, like they do the bikes?
Can't take long, either before or after stage.
Needn't be more than a couple of times a GT.

Surely that independent data would make the analysis of power data / climbing speed more believable?

Weight loss seems to be the current (and yes, I know its not new) holy grail for improving performance in GTs: lets get the raw data in before we try to work out if its done legitimately/believably or suspiciously

 

[sittingbison]

Its a good article.

Can I make a suggestion?

Why not check the weigh of the riders, like they do the bikes?
Can't take long, either before or after stage.
Needn't be more than a couple of times a GT.

Surely that independent data would make the analysis of power data / climbing speed more believable?

Weight loss seems to be the current (and yes, I know its not new) holy grail for improving performance in GTs: lets get the raw data in before we try to work out if its done legitimately/believably or suspiciously

Good idea

Weight LOSS was never the Holy grail for improving GT performance until Dr Ferrari. Because of the associated loss of power. GT performers were complete cyclists able to compete in all disciplies. Losing weight from peak condition drastically effected flat speed and time trialling.... until blood vector doping and now mysterious peptides and the like (AICAR etc).

Thus incredulity with skeletons Sir Wiggo, Dawg and Horner.

 

[sniper]

Its a good article.

it's not terribly bad but let's not lower the benchmark for "good" journalism.

first, why is guercilena given such a huge voice in that article? the author addresses some of his quotes critically, but not all, and certainly not critically enough.
a "good" journo with some investigative intentions would ask more objective people to shed their light on the issue.

second, what is this supposed to mean?

The peloton is facing a credibility gap. There is a massive disconnect between the reality portrayed in the USADA dossier and the reality of what fans witnessed over the past three weeks in Spain.

i think the author has it up-side-down.
there is no disconnect between the two realities at all.
the realities match.

 

[Benotti69]

I have no opinion on Horner doping (or not) because I just don't know.

I have massive suspicions about a Cat 3 winning his 1st GT at age 42.

But Horner hasn't exactly beaten a field that targeted this GT as their seasons major goal?

To my mind it was a massive opportunity for a lesser rider to win a GT.

Riders in Top 10 who have already competed in a GT this year -

Vincenzo Nibali
Alejandro Valverde Belmonte
Joaquim Rodriguez Oliver
Nicolas Roche
Domenico Pozzovivo
Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez
Daniel Moreno Fernandez

Riders in Top 10 competing in 1st GT for year -
Thibaut Pinot
Leopold Konig

Horner is 42>Suspicious.
Horner is skinnier than he's ever been>Suspicious.
Horner is a noted climber, albeit never given the lead role in a GT>Opportunity.
Horner has had a light season, so comes in fresh (apart from Tirreno Adriatico in March, he has only raced Tour of Utah and Vuelta)>Opportunity.
Weak or Tired opposition>Opportunity.

He doesn't necessarily have to be doped to the gills to beat that Top 10.

So Piti, Jrod and Nibali didn't really want to win La Vuelta?

Piti has not won a GT in 4 years, and then only has 1 Vuelta to his name. 2 Vuelta's not really worth going for?

JRod still looking for a GT win, didn't go all out here? Doubt that.

Nibali to be the 1st rider to win 2 GTs in the same season since Contador(who lost his wins for clen doping), nah dont bother giving it all.

Horner beat a pretty high level peloton at this Vuelta and he did with a bit to spare.

Was Horner even the Radioshck team leader for La Vuelta.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Nibali to be the 1st rider to win 2 GTs in the same season since Contador(who lost his wins for clen doping), nah dont bother giving it all.

I'm sure Nibali (and Valverde and JRod) gave their all. The problem was that given their season to the start of the Vuelta they were already well on the back foot vs Horner.

Both Spaniards rode the Tour very hard, and it's not hugely controversial to claim that they would not be fully recovered by the Vuelta. Such short recovery gaps are why the Giro/Tour and Tour/Vuelta doubles are so hard.

Nibs could, in theory, have been at his peak for the Vuelta, but he was utter dross in Poland and visibly somewhat overweight vs his Giro condition. Assuming he wasn't bluffing in Poland and wearing a prosthetic stomach, to recover to peak form by the Vuelta would have been as suspicious as anything Horner did.

Thus, Horner did not have that much to beat - the familar bodies of "top" riders were inhabited by tired men.

Note that none of the above even hints at Horner being anything other than doped up to the eyeballs - it's just a logical assessment of the actual condition of the condition of the big names.

 

[zigmeister]

Nibali already said he is down 15-20w. So if 15-20w makes such a huge difference according to the pessimistic in favor of a doper, then why wouldn't being down 20w against other riders at regular power make a difference? Jrod and the others are cooked from a long season.

Same logic, just flipped around.

You know a good nights sleep has proven to give you and extra 15-20w?

Is that doping also? Good sleep?

 

[The Hitch]

Nibali already said he is down 15-20w. So if 15-20w makes such a huge difference according to the pessimistic in favor of a doper, then why wouldn't being down 20w against other riders at regular power make a difference? Jrod and the others are cooked from a long season.

Same logic, just flipped around.

You know a good nights sleep has proven to give you and extra 15-20w?

Is that doping also? Good sleep?

Nibali says that, but vetoo had Nibali down as 5.8 for the Giro and Horner 5.9 for the Vuelta.

Now given that Nibali- take away the tt and the ttt lost about 2 minutes to Horner in the mountains, is that going to be lower than his 5.8 from the Giro?

 

[Spider1964]

You ignore his ascent times, though. He now has the record on Peña Cabarga, 2nd fastest ever on Angliru, beating **** loads of obviously juiced riders, and a ridiculous performance up Hazallanas to top it off. Explain that.

You ignore my suspicions? Explain that?

There were several factors that make his win suspicious (as I pointed out), but then you make it sound like I'm defending his performance, which I'm not. My point is that for a variety of reasons, this isn't the best GT field ever assembled.

 

[Benotti69]

I'm sure Nibali (and Valverde and JRod) gave their all. The problem was that given their season to the start of the Vuelta they were already well on the back foot vs Horner.

Both Spaniards rode the Tour very hard, and it's not hugely controversial to claim that they would not be fully recovered by the Vuelta. Such short recovery gaps are why the Giro/Tour and Tour/Vuelta doubles are so hard.

Nibs could, in theory, have been at his peak for the Vuelta, but he was utter dross in Poland and visibly somewhat overweight vs his Giro condition. Assuming he wasn't bluffing in Poland and wearing a prosthetic stomach, to recover to peak form by the Vuelta would have been as suspicious as anything Horner did.

Thus, Horner did not have that much to beat - the familar bodies of "top" riders were inhabited by tired men.

Note that none of the above even hints at Horner being anything other than doped up to the eyeballs - it's just a logical assessment of the actual condition of the condition of the big names.

Winning a GT comes down to pharmceutical prep and Horner had the best chemicals.

 

[Spider1964]

So Piti, Jrod and Nibali didn't really want to win La Vuelta?

Piti has not won a GT in 4 years, and then only has 1 Vuelta to his name. 2 Vuelta's not really worth going for?

JRod still looking for a GT win, didn't go all out here? Doubt that.

Nibali to be the 1st rider to win 2 GTs in the same season since Contador(who lost his wins for clen doping), nah dont bother giving it all.

Horner beat a pretty high level peloton at this Vuelta and he did with a bit to spare.

Was Horner even the Radioshck team leader for La Vuelta.

Please point out in my post where I mention these riders didn't try? Or go all out? I'll save you the time.. I didn't say that.

I said they were tired or weak... I stand by that. I realise that you are tired and jaded with dopers, but please don't put words in my posts that aren't there.

As for your assertion that Horner beat a pretty high level peloton... Not in my opinion, for the reasons I stated.