Who do you think is clean?

[Libertine Seguros]

Funny, the first time Vicioso really caught my attention was here

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2000/may00/giro/vicioso15.shtml

And when he had to take a summer vacation in 2006 he was 30 seconds behind Ullrich in a 30k TT and nearly podiumed the TdS.

Like I said, I wouldn't bet a Turkish lira on Vicioso being clean. And there's a difference between being implicated in something and being implicated officially in something; in the eyes of officialdom, Vicioso has nothing against his name. But his summer vacation in 2006 and disappearance from the top level in 2007 to reappear on a highly dubious Portuguese team all point towards a certain unavoidable conclusion, given a lot of those others who were there with him (Blanco, Bernabéu, Plaza, Zaballa, Jiménez, Santi Pérez, Nozal and so on).

Even I don't believe that Vicioso and Evans are equally likely to be clean or dirty. I'm just using Vicioso to illustrate a point.

Let's take it another way, as obviously Ángel Vicioso is about as extreme an example as I could have chosen.

The only thing we have against Cadel Evans is that he has been on some dubious teams, and general perception of his performances (depending on your point of view). Certainly not a great deal, and definitely not enough to say for sure either way.

Here are some more riders who, to all intents and purposes, have nothing against their name save for the teams they raced for. Let's see how we perceive them all:

Carlos Sastre (ONCE 1998-2001, CSC 2002-2008)
Joaquím Rodríguez (ONCE 2001-2003, Saunier Duval 2004-2005)
Fabian Wegmann (Gerolsteiner 2002-2008)
Sergei Ivanov (T-Mobile 2004-2006, Astana 2007-2008)
Oliver Zaugg (Saunier Duval 2004-2006, Gerolsteiner 2007-2008)
Juan José Cobo (Saunier Duval 2004-2009)
Marco Pinotti (Lampre 1999-2004, Saunier Duval 2005-2006, T-Mobile 2007)
Rubens Bertogliatti (Lampre 1999-2003, Saunier Duval 2004-2008, Androni Giocattoli 2009-2010)
Josep Jufre (Boavista 1999-2002, Relax 2003-2005, Fuji 2008-2009, Astana 2010-2011)

The point is, many riders out there have some team history that doesn't exactly cover them with glory. That's all that we have for certain against Evans, his team history. We then have to make a judgement call - some riders on the above list are seen as cleaner than others. And both rational (performances we watch and how realistic they are) and irrational (biased personal opinions both of the rider as a person and of their physical capabilities) factors will be called on to make that judgement call. Like I said before, I have no reason to believe Tondó when he says he knew nothing of the LA-MSS shenanigans. But still I do, because I want to.

I want to believe Evans is clean, and I concede that he is more likely than many other GC candidates and many of the riders in the above list to be so. But again as I've said, doping isn't a lightswitch where you either dope for every race or are clean for every race. Many riders who will have participated in team programs before could easily be clean now (Cobo especially springs to mind, given that he went from winning mountain stages of GTs and top 10 in the Vuelta to a total inability to even finish a race). It's a judgement call, and we all make different judgements. Hell, we even make judgement calls when the riders test positive - I don't consider Aurélien Duval or Marta Bastianelli to be as villainous for their diet pills as I consider Mickaël Larpe or Svetlana Bubnenkova for their EPO, for example.

 

[craig1985]

Ask any longtime Dutch amateur what they know about Terpstra and his buddy Hoogerland and they'll laugh their a*s off at your suggestion.

If he was a charger back then, or still is, why not just say so? I mean not everybody is an insider or rode in the Dutch amateur scene.

 

[Mambo95]

Here are some more riders who, to all intents and purposes, have nothing against their name save for the teams they raced for. Let's see how we perceive them all:

Carlos Sastre (ONCE 1998-2001, CSC 2002-2008)
Joaquím Rodríguez (ONCE 2001-2003, Saunier Duval 2004-2005)
Fabian Wegmann (Gerolsteiner 2002-2008)
Sergei Ivanov (T-Mobile 2004-2006, Astana 2007-2008)
Oliver Zaugg (Saunier Duval 2004-2006, Gerolsteiner 2007-2008)
Juan José Cobo (Saunier Duval 2004-2009)
Marco Pinotti (Lampre 1999-2004, Saunier Duval 2005-2006, T-Mobile 2007)
Rubens Bertogliatti (Lampre 1999-2003, Saunier Duval 2004-2008, Androni Giocattoli 2009-2010)
Josep Jufre (Boavista 1999-2002, Relax 2003-2005, Fuji 2008-2009, Astana 2010-2011)

Christophe Bassons (Festina 1996-1998)

 

[Barrus]

If he was a charger back then, or still is, why not just say so? I mean not everybody is an insider or rode in the Dutch amateur scene.

Wasn't Hoogerland known as EPO Johnny back then? I know he was implicated in something but cleared in some way

 

[bicing]

The only thing we have against Cadel Evans is that he has been on some dubious teams, and general perception of his performances (depending on your point of view). Certainly not a great deal, and definitely not enough to say for sure either way.

Here are some more riders who, to all intents and purposes, have nothing against their name save for the teams they raced for. Let's see how we perceive them all:

Carlos Sastre (ONCE 1998-2001, CSC 2002-2008)
Joaquím Rodríguez (ONCE 2001-2003, Saunier Duval 2004-2005)
Fabian Wegmann (Gerolsteiner 2002-2008)
Sergei Ivanov (T-Mobile 2004-2006, Astana 2007-2008)
Oliver Zaugg (Saunier Duval 2004-2006, Gerolsteiner 2007-2008)
Juan José Cobo (Saunier Duval 2004-2009)
Marco Pinotti (Lampre 1999-2004, Saunier Duval 2005-2006, T-Mobile 2007)
Rubens Bertogliatti (Lampre 1999-2003, Saunier Duval 2004-2008, Androni Giocattoli 2009-2010)
Josep Jufre (Boavista 1999-2002, Relax 2003-2005, Fuji 2008-2009, Astana 2010-2011)

The point is, many riders out there have some team history that doesn't exactly cover them with glory. That's all that we have for certain against Evans, his team history. We then have to make a judgement call - some riders on the above list are seen as cleaner than others. And both rational (performances we watch and how realistic they are) and irrational (biased personal opinions both of the rider as a person and of their physical capabilities) factors will be called on to make that judgement call. Like I said before, I have no reason to believe Tondó when he says he knew nothing of the LA-MSS shenanigans. But still I do, because I want to.

I want to believe Evans is clean, and I concede that he is more likely than many other GC candidates and many of the riders in the above list to be so. But again as I've said, doping isn't a lightswitch where you either dope for every race or are clean for every race. Many riders who will have participated in team programs before could easily be clean now (Cobo especially springs to mind, given that he went from winning mountain stages of GTs and top 10 in the Vuelta to a total inability to even finish a race). It's a judgement call, and we all make different judgements. Hell, we even make judgement calls when the riders test positive - I don't consider Aurélien Duval or Marta Bastianelli to be as villainous for their diet pills as I consider Mickaël Larpe or Svetlana Bubnenkova for their EPO, for example.

Great post as usual LS!

I just wanted to add that in reading the Landis-Kimmage interview and learning for the first time about Bassons, that it's possible to be on a doping team and not dope. Moreau said Bassons was the only person on the team Festina not to engage in doping. What I learned from his situation though, was how bad a career move it could be to not dope, and that anyone who was clean would probably have to hide it! (Sorry, its probably obvious to more experienced posters, but it was a telling case for me!) So it would be impossible to find out during one's career if they were doping or not, because if they gave an indication of dropping the Omerta then they'd be ostracised from the peloton. Meaning, we have to wait until people "come out of the closet" after their careers. How many have done this?

I noticed that Bassons' changed teams often - do you think this could be a clue to help us distinguish dopers on dodgy teams from clean riders who happen to be on doping teams? I don't know Jufre or Bertaglioio but they didn't last long at their teams and rotated through a few teams.

 

[Benotti69]

Great post as usual LS!

I just wanted to add that in reading the Landis-Kimmage interview and learning for the first time about Bassons, that it's possible to be on a doping team and not dope. Moreau said Bassons was the only person on the team Festina not to engage in doping. What I learned from his situation though, was how bad a career move it could be to not dope, and that anyone who was clean would probably have to hide it! (Sorry, its probably obvious to more experienced posters, but it was a telling case for me!) So it would be impossible to find out during one's career if they were doping or not, because if they gave an indication of dropping the Omerta then they'd be ostracised from the peloton. Meaning, we have to wait until people "come out of the closet" after their careers. How many have done this?

I noticed that Bassons' changed teams often - do you think this could be a clue to help us distinguish dopers on dodgy teams from clean riders who happen to be on doping teams? I don't know Jufre or Bertaglioio but they didn't last long at their teams and rotated through a few teams.

Frank Vandenbroucke changed team every year. Go look him up

If we look at Moreua's comment, Bassons was the only won in a squad of 25 riders who did not dope, that a % rate of 4 of riders not doping. But its less as it is almost certain that teams will have full squads on a program to dope, especially Spanish and Italian where there will be exceptions but they are exceptions like Bassons.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Wasn't Hoogerland known as EPO Johnny back then? I know he was implicated in something but cleared in some way

He was known as "Jonny Testosteroney" as he had a postive for some sort of testosterone problem as a junior, I believe....but it was claimed it was a natiral disorder.

He was widely suspected by the entire Dutch amateur peloton. There was a Scandinavian rider on here a while back saying he had personally seen Jonny swigging something discreetly out of a pharmaceutical bottle in a Swedish amateur Stage race.

there is here a Hoogerland thread, but to summarize, in his first pro year he came 12th in the Vuelta and in the Worlds, and was off the front so often in the spring classics that the Belgian commentator even developed the "here's Johnny" catchphrase.

Then, after being widely frowned upon, and being reportedly subject to greater testing scrutiny his 2010 results look very much like those of a very good amateur riding in lower tier pro races.

Terpstra on the other hand is a co*k. i have encountered his co*ksomeness myself.

the widely recounted stories in the amateur ranks here was that him and "Here's Jonny" used to go on shopping trips to Belgium together, then come back and lap the field in crits....

It was inevitable that guys like this got pro contracts, as the best amateur squads and pro teams here all seem to be run by the individuals from the same network of dodgy 70's and 80's ex pros.

I'll leave the Rabo set up out of this, as their modus operandi seems to be to bag the most ridiculously talented juniors as they turn 18, then develop them through the Espoir team. But still, only a tiny fraction make it as a pro in the Rabo pro team - but their amateur team dominates the espoir competition to a ridiculous extent.

The issue here in the amateur ranks is that the amateur peloton is rather large, and the level is high. Competition is fierce - about 2 guys a year get a pro contract, from a pool of about 50 who really aren't that much worse than the lucky ones - and testing is very poor - vurtually non existent. I used to go and take a pre race dump in the doping control HQ at the race starts as there would never be anyone there. I had no tests in 2 years, and none of the teams seem to do anything to discourage anything or even inquire about it. Riders are in cliques based on different perceived ability that also dictate social standing....

 

[Barrus]

He was known as "Jonny Testosteroney" as he had a postive for some sort of testosterone problem as a junior, I believe....but it was claimed it was a natiral disorder.

Oh right, that was it, I knew it was something like that

 

[hrotha]

Frank Vandenbroucke changed team every year. Go look him up

If we look at Moreua's comment, Bassons was the only won in a squad of 25 riders who did not dope, that a % rate of 4 of riders not doping. But its less as it is almost certain that teams will have full squads on a program to dope, especially Spanish and Italian where there will be exceptions but they are exceptions like Bassons.

If I recall correctly, Laurent Lefevre was supposed to be clean too.

 

[TRDean]

He was known as "Jonny Testosteroney" as he had a postive for some sort of testosterone problem as a junior, I believe....but it was claimed it was a natiral disorder.

He was widely suspected by the entire Dutch amateur peloton. There was a Scandinavian rider on here a while back saying he had personally seen Jonny swigging something discreetly out of a pharmaceutical bottle in a Swedish amateur Stage race.

there is here a Hoogerland thread, but to summarize, in his first pro year he came 12th in the Vuelta and in the Worlds, and was off the front so often in the spring classics that the Belgian commentator even developed the "here's Johnny" catchphrase.

Then, after being widely frowned upon, and being reportedly subject to greater testing scrutiny his 2010 results look very much like those of a very good amateur riding in lower tier pro races.

Terpstra on the other hand is a co*k. i have encountered his co*ksomeness myself.

the widely recounted stories in the amateur ranks here was that him and "Here's Jonny" used to go on shopping trips to Belgium together, then come back and lap the field in crits....

It was inevitable that guys like this got pro contracts, as the best amateur squads and pro teams here all seem to be run by the individuals from the same network of dodgy 70's and 80's ex pros.

I'll leave the Rabo set up out of this, as their modus operandi seems to be to bag the most ridiculously talented juniors as they turn 18, then develop them through the Espoir team. But still, only a tiny fraction make it as a pro in the Rabo pro team - but their amateur team dominates the espoir competition to a ridiculous extent.

The issue here in the amateur ranks is that the amateur peloton is rather large, and the level is high. Competition is fierce - about 2 guys a year get a pro contract, from a pool of about 50 who really aren't that much worse than the lucky ones - and testing is very poor - vurtually non existent. I used to go and take a pre race dump in the doping control HQ at the race starts as there would never be anyone there. I had no tests in 2 years, and none of the teams seem to do anything to discourage anything or even inquire about it. Riders are in cliques based on different perceived ability that also dictate social standing....

Thanks for the info!! The Hoogerland stuff does not surprise, due to the nature of his first year. Terpstra is a surprise...but thanks for the info nonetheless!

 

[Angliru]

this is hard to accept. cadel signed for T-Mobile and Mapei in his early days of pro road racing, where he didn't fit in. despite his obvious talent and MTB palmares, he said that T-Mobile showed no interest in him. i think it's fair to wonder whether this is evidence of his being clean, rather than dirty.


is this what the defence of people like contador has been reduced to? if there are clean contenders and i believe it's feasible, if not certain, then contador and the like have been cheating them and us for a long time. for that, i have nothing but contempt.

Double posting.

 

[Angliru]

this is hard to accept. cadel signed for T-Mobile and Mapei in his early days of pro road racing, where he didn't fit in. despite his obvious talent and MTB palmares, he said that T-Mobile showed no interest in him. i think it's fair to wonder whether this is evidence of his being clean, rather than dirty.


is this what the defence of people like contador has been reduced to? if there are clean contenders and i believe it's feasible, if not certain, then contador and the like have been cheating them and us for a long time. for that, i have nothing but contempt.

Where exactly has Cadel ever "fit in"? His time at Lotto is chronicled by his and his fans perpetual rant of a general lack of support that crippled him in meeting his ultimate goal of Tour success. It could be argued that his inability to garner support at every turn reflects more on him than on the teams' management and riders that he and his fans accuse than on them. If the story remains the same at every turn, eventually one has to take responsibility for their continued fate and not pass the buck onto others.
Even on his world championship winning Australian team there were rumours of a division of support inspite of his impressive record on courses of that kind.

 

[runninboy]

Where exactly has Cadel ever "fit in"? His time at Lotto is chronicled by his and his fans perpetual rant of a general lack of support that crippled him in meeting his ultimate goal of Tour success. It could be argued that his inability to garner support at every turn reflects more on him than on the teams' management and riders that he and his fans accuse than on them. If the story remains the same at every turn, eventually one has to take responsibility for their continued fate and not pass the buck onto others.
Even on his world championship winning Australian team there were rumours of a division of support inspite of his impressive record on courses of that kind.

+1 Being a fan of Horner I remember him talking about Lotto and lack of support for Evans. McEwen didnt like the way the squad was put together and he wanted more sprinting support. Evans had to fight every year it seemed to me, to keep Horner. I remember Chris talking about how little he was getting paid and yet they wouldn't even guarantee the contract for the next year. Not exactly a harmonius situation for Cadel.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

+1 Being a fan of Horner I remember him talking about Lotto and lack of support for Evans. McEwen didnt like the way the squad was put together and he wanted more sprinting support. Evans had to fight every year it seemed to me, to keep Horner. I remember Chris talking about how little he was getting paid and yet they wouldn't even guarantee the contract for the next year. Not exactly a harmonius situation for Cadel.

Not exactly a surprise though - some teams are dedicated solely to GTs (eg Radioshack, Leopard), some solely to sprints (HTC), some to classics.

If you try to do all 3 at the same time, then you'll wind up being second best in all of them. McEwen would want more sprint support because having riders there for Evans means less support for him; Evans would want the team's support but their having McEwen and his leadouts means less support for him; and all the while you have the problem of Lotto needing to show in the Classics and fitting the likes of Leif Hoste in.

 

[runninboy]

Not exactly a surprise though - some teams are dedicated solely to GTs (eg Radioshack, Leopard), some solely to sprints (HTC), some to classics.

If you try to do all 3 at the same time, then you'll wind up being second best in all of them. McEwen would want more sprint support because having riders there for Evans means less support for him; Evans would want the team's support but their having McEwen and his leadouts means less support for him; and all the while you have the problem of Lotto needing to show in the Classics and fitting the likes of Leif Hoste in.

Totally agree. the fact that they were trying to go for GC & sprints with the same team obviously one or the other is gonna be disappointed with the team selection. I just hated to see Cadel so isolated at times, Horner is not a bad climber but c'mon. Chris was doing all he could but he himself was disappointed that Cadel didnt have better helpers. Pretty discouraging when u know you are your leaders last helper and you look around in the pack and so many other teams still have plenty of help for their leaders. Then when it comes time for your contract to be renewed the team says "we need time to think"...

 

[Frosty]

Totally agree. the fact that they were trying to go for GC & sprints with the same team obviously one or the other is gonna be disappointed with the team selection. I just hated to see Cadel so isolated at times, Horner is not a bad climber but c'mon. Chris was doing all he could but he himself was disappointed that Cadel didnt have better helpers. Pretty discouraging when u know you are your leaders last helper and you look around in the pack and so many other teams still have plenty of help for their leaders. Then when it comes time for your contract to be renewed the team says "we need time to think"...

Going OT a touch here i guess but the 2008 tour saw evans lose the decisive time on alpe d'huez. This was the time when he needed a team mate to pace him up the early and middle kilometres and keep the gap at a lower level. If Popovych had been on the form of 2007, when he finished 8th, then he could have done this job but Popovych was nowhere near that standard in 2008. Mario Aerts did give some help in the first kilometre of the climb but soon blew and ended up 6 minutes down.

Obviously extra help in places like Prato Nevoso would have helped too, even on the Hautacam where he didnt lose time to Sastre he wouldnt have been on the front as much. Still if you try to win the tour on a mid-budget team which has differing goals then you can end up in this position if you best helper doesnt help much,

 

[craig1985]

He was known as "Jonny Testosteroney" as he had a postive for some sort of testosterone problem as a junior, I believe....but it was claimed it was a natiral disorder.

He was widely suspected by the entire Dutch amateur peloton. There was a Scandinavian rider on here a while back saying he had personally seen Jonny swigging something discreetly out of a pharmaceutical bottle in a Swedish amateur Stage race.

there is here a Hoogerland thread, but to summarize, in his first pro year he came 12th in the Vuelta and in the Worlds, and was off the front so often in the spring classics that the Belgian commentator even developed the "here's Johnny" catchphrase.

Then, after being widely frowned upon, and being reportedly subject to greater testing scrutiny his 2010 results look very much like those of a very good amateur riding in lower tier pro races.

Terpstra on the other hand is a co*k. i have encountered his co*ksomeness myself.

the widely recounted stories in the amateur ranks here was that him and "Here's Jonny" used to go on shopping trips to Belgium together, then come back and lap the field in crits....

It was inevitable that guys like this got pro contracts, as the best amateur squads and pro teams here all seem to be run by the individuals from the same network of dodgy 70's and 80's ex pros.

I'll leave the Rabo set up out of this, as their modus operandi seems to be to bag the most ridiculously talented juniors as they turn 18, then develop them through the Espoir team. But still, only a tiny fraction make it as a pro in the Rabo pro team - but their amateur team dominates the espoir competition to a ridiculous extent.

The issue here in the amateur ranks is that the amateur peloton is rather large, and the level is high. Competition is fierce - about 2 guys a year get a pro contract, from a pool of about 50 who really aren't that much worse than the lucky ones - and testing is very poor - vurtually non existent. I used to go and take a pre race dump in the doping control HQ at the race starts as there would never be anyone there. I had no tests in 2 years, and none of the teams seem to do anything to discourage anything or even inquire about it. Riders are in cliques based on different perceived ability that also dictate social standing....

Very good and informative post, thanks.

 

[kease7]

Very good and informative post, thanks.

Agreed, superb stuff

 

[Boeing]

Here's a question. If you had to bet your life savings, or a similarly large amount of money on a current cyclist being clean (and I mean totally clean - for their whole career - nothing illegal whatsoever) who would it be?

Two rules: 1. The rider must have completed a Grand Tour, 2. You can't say 'impossible they're all at it' - that's just a cop out.

My pick is David Moncoutie

I thought it would make a change from constantly accusing and highlight the good guys for once.

Ben King is clean

 

[auscyclefan94]

Where exactly has Cadel ever "fit in"? His time at Lotto is chronicled by his and his fans perpetual rant of a general lack of support that crippled him in meeting his ultimate goal of Tour success. It could be argued that his inability to garner support at every turn reflects more on him than on the teams' management and riders that he and his fans accuse than on them. If the story remains the same at every turn, eventually one has to take responsibility for their continued fate and not pass the buck onto others.
Even on his world championship winning Australian team there were rumours of a division of support inspite of his impressive record on courses of that kind.

I would say he kind of fits in at BMC though he is definitely a very different person to a lot of sports people out there. He is a bit of an enigma and is generally a different to the other aussie riders. I personally think that he is not necessarily popular amongst the other aussies in a sense that all the other australian riders never seem to like to talk about him when asked about him in an intervew or don't say much when he wins a race. I do know he is friends with Simon Clarke and Wes Sulzberger but I think because he doesn't fit the traditional

Like I said, I wouldn't bet a Turkish lira on Vicioso being clean. And there's a difference between being implicated in something and being implicated officially in something; in the eyes of officialdom, Vicioso has nothing against his name. But his summer vacation in 2006 and disappearance from the top level in 2007 to reappear on a highly dubious Portuguese team all point towards a certain unavoidable conclusion, given a lot of those others who were there with him (Blanco, Bernabéu, Plaza, Zaballa, Jiménez, Santi Pérez, Nozal and so on).

Even I don't believe that Vicioso and Evans are equally likely to be clean or dirty. I'm just using Vicioso to illustrate a point.

Let's take it another way, as obviously Ángel Vicioso is about as extreme an example as I could have chosen.

The only thing we have against Cadel Evans is that he has been on some dubious teams, and general perception of his performances (depending on your point of view). Certainly not a great deal, and definitely not enough to say for sure either way.

Here are some more riders who, to all intents and purposes, have nothing against their name save for the teams they raced for. Let's see how we perceive them all:

Carlos Sastre (ONCE 1998-2001, CSC 2002-2008)
Joaquím Rodríguez (ONCE 2001-2003, Saunier Duval 2004-2005)
Fabian Wegmann (Gerolsteiner 2002-2008)
Sergei Ivanov (T-Mobile 2004-2006, Astana 2007-2008)
Oliver Zaugg (Saunier Duval 2004-2006, Gerolsteiner 2007-2008)
Juan José Cobo (Saunier Duval 2004-2009)
Marco Pinotti (Lampre 1999-2004, Saunier Duval 2005-2006, T-Mobile 2007)
Rubens Bertogliatti (Lampre 1999-2003, Saunier Duval 2004-2008, Androni Giocattoli 2009-2010)
Josep Jufre (Boavista 1999-2002, Relax 2003-2005, Fuji 2008-2009, Astana 2010-2011)

The point is, many riders out there have some team history that doesn't exactly cover them with glory. That's all that we have for certain against Evans, his team history. We then have to make a judgement call - some riders on the above list are seen as cleaner than others. And both rational (performances we watch and how realistic they are) and irrational (biased personal opinions both of the rider as a person and of their physical capabilities) factors will be called on to make that judgement call. Like I said before, I have no reason to believe Tondó when he says he knew nothing of the LA-MSS shenanigans. But still I do, because I want to.

I want to believe Evans is clean, and I concede that he is more likely than many other GC candidates and many of the riders in the above list to be so. But again as I've said, doping isn't a lightswitch where you either dope for every race or are clean for every race. Many riders who will have participated in team programs before could easily be clean now (Cobo especially springs to mind, given that he went from winning mountain stages of GTs and top 10 in the Vuelta to a total inability to even finish a race). It's a judgement call, and we all make different judgements. Hell, we even make judgement calls when the riders test positive - I don't consider Aurélien Duval or Marta Bastianelli to be as villainous for their diet pills as I consider Mickaël Larpe or Svetlana Bubnenkova for their EPO, for example.

Well I think it is unfair to judge someone as a doper just because association of riding with dopers or a doped team. I would never do that nor would I say that someone is clean because they are apart of a 'new generation' or have bike pure bands on when riding. I am pretty sure Cadel had a bike pure band on when riding the 2008 tour. Now I do believe that he is clean though I could be very wrong and there is a reasonable possibility that it is the case.

Nobody has ever confirmed that it's Vicioso. Therefore, in the eyes of the regulators, they are the same. Vicioso didn't have trouble being allowed to race like people like Plaza or Zaballa, so one can only conclude that evidence against him was weaker.

I wouldn't bet a Turkish lira that Vicioso is clean, but the only difference is a "maybe?" - maybe another example would be Juanjó Cobo.

There's no evidence against Juanjó Cobo beyond hearsay and the teams he's been on. Yet pretty much everybody is happy to say that he's probably doped. There's hearsay against Evans (if only from his MTB days) and he's been on shady teams, yet he's not considered as likely to have doped as Cobo. You could argue that "that's probably because he isn't as likely to have doped as Cobo". And I would actually probably agree with you. But what is the basis for this opinion? It's just a gut reaction, and we are all biased when we have these reactions and when we see the riders' performances.

In fact, given his pathetic 2010, I am tempted to say that Cobo was as clean as Evans if not more last year.

Actual evidence is required. A.C. was never proven to be Contador, Basso was never proven to be Birrillo, Rudy's Son (whatever it was) was never proven to be Ullrich. So saying that Vicioso was not 'officially linked' is true but others that have been cleared have later proven to be or have admitted to worked with Fuentes. Lack of evidence does not = not guilty of being linked.

 

[craig1985]

But didn't Basso more or less say that he was Brillio on the OP documents? The same thing Scarponi did.

 

[roundabout]

But didn't Basso more or less say that he was Brillio on the OP documents? The same thing Scarponi did.

It was that or supply the DNA and get caught anyway.

 

[stainlessguy1]

Hey i got it ,,

I know , its the guy on the motorcycle holding the camera , he is clean . He just looks a little drunk when he walks after getting off , because he sees the whole tour riding backwards while on the bike . lol

 

[Descender]

I know , its the guy on the motorcycle holding the camera , he is clean . He just looks a little drunk when he walks after getting off , because he sees the whole tour riding backwards while on the bike . lol

That made me lol.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well I think it is unfair to judge someone as a doper just because association of riding with dopers or a doped team. I would never do that nor would I say that someone is clean because they are apart of a 'new generation' or have bike pure bands on when riding.

But you have been happy in the past to tar all Spanish or all Portuguese riders as doping, whether in jest, for comic effect or in all seriousness. It's hypocritical to apply arbitrary criteria to some riders because of associations and not to others who have shady associations - but it's something we're all guilty of, myself included.

Actual evidence is required. A.C. was never proven to be Contador, Basso was never proven to be Birrillo, Rudy's Son (whatever it was) was never proven to be Ullrich. So saying that Vicioso was not 'officially linked' is true but others that have been cleared have later proven to be or have admitted to worked with Fuentes. Lack of evidence does not = not guilty of being linked.

As far as I know, Juanjó Cobo does not have a Fuentes file. There are no failed tests, no Viru or Losa links.

In that case, do you believe that Juanjó Cobo is clean? Has he been linked to doping? If so, how?

This is the point I'm getting at. Juanjó Cobo is linked to doping because we don't believe some of his performances and he rode at a team where lots of doping went on. Cadel Evans rode at teams where lots of doping went on - it comes down to how realistic you think his performances are, how involved you think he was with activities there (eg we can believe Moncoutié was not involved with the Cofidis doping, but are less willing to accept the protestations of innocence of the likes of Zaballa) and as a result, your personal opinion of him (vis-à-vis his level of ability) comes into it.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that double standards are held with regards riders with similar amounts "against" their name, and our personal opinions affect that. I've deliberately used extreme examples like Vicioso and Cobo in order to illustrate the point, because they are riders that most people are willing to say doped and/or dope to the present day.