Who was the 1st true, through EPO and/or blood transfusion enhanced TdF-Winner

[GuyIncognito]

I think Berzin must be clean in 1996 Tour according to that logic.

Haha well put

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

In 1987 already?

EPO was prevalent in athletics by 87:

From this excellent interview. I reccomend you read all of it -
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...uption-doping-collusion-at-the-ioc-uci_270482

. In 1987, he presided over the IAAF Athletics Championships in Rome. The 1987 Championships are remembered for two reasons. First, Nebiolo was implicated in a long jump cheating scandal that was staged to win a medal for a fellow Italian. Second, a competition that included Ben Johnson, a host of East Germans, and many other steroid-boosted athletes produced exactly one doping positive: a Swiss female runner few people had ever heard of. In addition, Dr. Francesco Conconi, the notorious Italian doping scientist whose blood doping activities were exposed in the Swedish press as early as 1985, kept Nebiolo informed about his secret use of the blood-boosting drug EPO with many elite athletes.

 

[roundabout]

Lago Laceno was probably the closest thing to high mountains in the first 2 weeks in the 98 Giro.

Zülle losing 30 minutes on the Montecampione stage is better evidence.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Lago Laceno was probably the closest thing to high mountains in the first 2 weeks in the 98 Giro.

Zülle losing 30 minutes on the Montecampione stage is better evidence.

That wasn't exhaustion, it was doping gone wrong.
Voet talks about it in his book. How the balance of drugs is very delicate.

Zülle saw Dufaux braking for corners going uphill at Romandie two weeks previously so he demanded Voet give him the same dose of cortico. Voet explained to him that what worked for Dufaux would not work for Zülle and would in fact be counterproductive given the drugs Zülle was on.

Zülle went behind his back to a soigneur who injected him with cortico. After dropping even Pantani in the climbs of the first week and a half he got progressively worse every day, eventually finishing very far down.

 

[roundabout]

Why wouldn't the same apply to Bartoli?

Okay for a non-climber to Piancavallo, top 10 in the ITT as a non- time trialist and then OTT 2 days later.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Why wouldn't the same apply to Bartoli?

Now you're just speculating wildly

 

[roundabout]

And I am speculating wildly because?

 

[GuyIncognito]

And I am speculating wildly because?

Because you have no evidence whatsoever that Bartoli's collapse was caused by anything other than racing every day is if there were no Giro tomorrow

 

[roundabout]

And you have no evidence that it was hard racing that did him in in a space of 1 day.

But that has never ever stopped you.

 

[FitSsikS]

EPO was prevalent in athletics by 87:

From this excellent interview. I reccomend you read all of it -
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...uption-doping-collusion-at-the-ioc-uci_270482

That's the reason I voted "Roche".

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

EPO was prevalent in athletics by 87:

From this excellent interview. I reccomend you read all of it -
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...uption-doping-collusion-at-the-ioc-uci_270482

. In 1987, he presided over the IAAF Athletics Championships in Rome. The 1987 Championships are remembered for two reasons. First, Nebiolo was implicated in a long jump cheating scandal that was staged to win a medal for a fellow Italian. Second, a competition that included Ben Johnson, a host of East Germans, and many other steroid-boosted athletes produced exactly one doping positive: a Swiss female runner few people had ever heard of. In addition, Dr. Francesco Conconi, the notorious Italian doping scientist whose blood doping activities were exposed in the Swedish press as early as 1985, kept Nebiolo informed about his secret use of the blood-boosting drug EPO with many elite athletes.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/u...to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Physicians say they believe athletes began using the drug almost with the beginning of clinical trials in 1986.

 

[Le breton]

What science fiction have you been reading? That must be the most unknowledgeable thing I've ever seen posted here. And that's saying a lot!

I'll name one of several hundred examples I could name of a guy on a full programme getting so exhausted he collapsed entirely: Bartoli at the 98 Giro. First couple of weeks he was stronger than even Pantani and Zülle, even in the high mountains. Attacking over and over for the most miniscule gains on every single stage, even getting in on bunch sprints.

But because in a stage race you must conserve energy and he didn't, in the third week he blew up so hard he eventually couldn't even make the time limit.

But thanks for the laugh

You're welcome.
Sorry (for you) you didn't understand what I wrote.
Should I try another language next time?

 

[Le breton]

Lago Laceno was probably the closest thing to high mountains in the first 2 weeks in the 98 Giro.

Zülle losing 30 minutes on the Montecampione stage is better evidence.

Ah! So you didn't read Willy Voet's book.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/u...to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Good article, and a good reminder of how early EPO was being used by athletes. 1986! That's shocking!

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I would have thought that Roche and Delgado would have received more votes. Interesting.

 

[Le breton]

Good article, and a good reminder of how early EPO was being used by athletes. 1986! That's shocking!

Physicians say they believe athletes began using the drug almost with the beginning of clinical trials in 1986. Then the deaths began. In 1987 five Dutch racers died suddenly. In 1988 a Belgian and two more Dutch riders died. In 1989 five more Dutch riders died, and last year three Belgians and two Dutch riders died. Transfusions of Extra Blood

I am quite surprised that this article wasn't pointed out in a lengthy CN thread that talked about the beginning of EPO.

If I remember correctly there was some sort of a consensus in the forum that EPO experimental use in cycling only started in 1988.
I had not read about this before : In 1987 five Dutch racers died suddenly.

From what I read in the past, among the 18 to 20 deaths mentioned only a couple were pros (Draijier and Van Osterboosch).

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Good article, and a good reminder of how early EPO was being used by athletes. 1986! That's shocking!

http://blog.ehesp.fr/mediasantepublique/2013/06/29/

Janvier 1988. Luxueux voyage en Suisse. Tout, déjà, était écrit et nous avions cherché à le dire dans les colonnes du Monde (éditions du 29 janvier 1988). Voici comment :

« Pour la première fois au monde

Commercialisation d’une hormone humaine qui multiplie les globules rouges

Pour la première fois au monde, une hormone _ l’érythropoiétine _ jouant un rôle essentiel dans la physiologie sanguine va, grâce aux techniques de manipulation génétique, pouvoir être produite à l’échelle industrielle.

http://www.lemonde.fr/cgi-bin/ACHAT...objet_id=594517&xtmc=l_erythropoietin&xtcr=37

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

If I remember correctly there was some sort of a consensus in the forum that EPO experimental use in cycling only started in 1988.
I had not read about this before : In 1987 five Dutch racers died suddenly.

From what I read in the past, among the 18 to 20 deaths mentioned only a couple were pros (Draijier and Van Osterboosch).

Here is a good article from "DER SPIEGEL" of germany from 1991 about the early EPO deaths in the late 80s. Some scientist talked of a "nuclear bomb for sports" in the making. In hindsight he was absolutely spot on. In 1989 Draaijer EPO doped himself into the T-20 of the TdF. So it´s safe to assume that from 1989 on, EPO doping was a "must" in the TdF to be competitive. Especially for the contenders.
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13488551.html
If using google translator the article is quite unterstandable and a great read from the past.

Oosterbosch died in 1989, but the big dying started as early as 1987 as you correctly wrote.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Here is a good article from "DER SPIEGEL" of germany from 1991 about the early EPO deaths in the late 80s. Some scientist talked of a "nuclear bomb for sports" in the making. In hindsight he was absolutely spot on. In 1989 Draaijer EPO doped himself into the T-20 of the TdF. So it´s safe to assume that from 1989 on, EPO doping was a "must" in the TdF to be competitive. Especially for the contenders.
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13488551.html
If using google translator the article is quite unterstandable and a great read from the past.

Oosterbosch died in 1989, but the big dying started as early as 1987 as you correctly wrote.

Der Spiegel is the same as the Sun?

How come it took Michele Ferrari 5 years to turn Toni Rominger into a GT winner? EPO Toni came in 57th in the 1990 Tour, not to mention his 1989 results. Too bad he injured his knee in 1991 prior to the Tour, he was finally cured from his terrible heyfever by then

 

[jens_attacks]

Here is a good article from "DER SPIEGEL" of germany from 1991 about the early EPO deaths in the late 80s. Some scientist talked of a "nuclear bomb for sports" in the making. In hindsight he was absolutely spot on. In 1989 Draaijer EPO doped himself into the T-20 of the TdF. So it´s safe to assume that from 1989 on, EPO doping was a "must" in the TdF to be competitive. Especially for the contenders.
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13488551.html
If using google translator the article is quite unterstandable and a great read from the past.

Oosterbosch died in 1989, but the big dying started as early as 1987 as you correctly wrote.

how on earth could you make such a connection? it absolutely doesn't make any sense

if i'd be lemond, fignon, would i do epo just because draaijer made the anonymous top 20 in le tour?boooo scaryyy.... they must have been wondering on what sauce that guy is....

in my opinion, of course epo was probably used way before the year of grace 1992 but it seemed to be like...well when first dynamite was used, it's a good analogy. probably it was very unstable and something you won't fucc with if you had a brain. when the grande dottore's managed to make it safe for use, people jumped in the train right away. and as we see now, there weren't big risks for the health of the athletes,like it or not.

so from the dynamite which would rather explode in your hotel room's bed in 1991 than actually work, to the beautiful hydrogen bomb of the spring of 1994 it was some work to do no doubt

the general feeling seems to be that in 1994(so definitely not 1989), jet fuel was mandatory if you wanted to stay in the peloton after the first hill. in my opinion,i think it was already very difficult in 1993.

 

[straitjacker]

Speaking about EPO, I think we can say with certainty that Indurain has won the Tour(s) with it's assistance. But the first one who has done it could be Lemond (I'm not buying the iron injections story).
Blood transfusion is a method known long before the EPO was discovered, so the first blood doped (transfusion) TDF winner could be from seventies. Back then transfusion probably wasn't that common since seventies and sixties were era of steroids and stimulants, and these were much more elegant for (ab)use, but the method was known and someone may have taken advantage of it.
I've always considered transfusion in 2000's like it's big comeback in sport rather than a novelty.

 

[MonkeyFace]

Speaking about EPO, I think we can say with certainty that Indurain has won the Tour(s) with it's assistance. But the first one who has done it could be Lemond (I'm not buying the iron injections story)..

Yeah, because in 89 and 90 Lemond rode faster than in 85 and 86. Oh wait, he as worst everything in his comeback. Christ, he won in 90 without even winning a stage. If you look at the stage winners in 90, with the exception of Mottet, it is a who's who in doping,Argentin, Museew, Ludwig, Bungo, and Indurain.

 

[D-Queued]

Speaking about EPO, I think we can say with certainty that Indurain has won the Tour(s) with it's assistance. But the first one who has done it could be Lemond (I'm not buying the iron injections story).
Blood transfusion is a method known long before the EPO was discovered, so the first blood doped (transfusion) TDF winner could be from seventies. Back then transfusion probably wasn't that common since seventies and sixties were era of steroids and stimulants, and these were much more elegant for (ab)use, but the method was known and someone may have taken advantage of it.
I've always considered transfusion in 2000's like it's big comeback in sport rather than a novelty.

+1

Next: How to stuff a full unit of blood into an iron injection.

Dave.

 

[therhodeo]

Yeah, because in 89 and 90 Lemond rode faster than in 85 and 86. Oh wait, he as worst everything in his comeback. Christ, he won in 90 without even winning a stage. If you look at the stage winners in 90, with the exception of Mottet, it is a who's who in doping,Argentin, Museew, Ludwig, Bungo, and Indurain.

The big thing with Lemond is how he showed no talent when he was young and totally came out of nowhere............

 

[D-Queued]

The big thing with Lemond is how he showed no talent when he was young and totally came out of nowhere............

Don't forget that he always tested worse that Joe Average when it came to his cardio capabilities.

His lungs are so small that he can barely blow out one birthday candle.

Then there is the fact that one leg is 3 cm shorter than the other, he is blind in one eye so he doesn't have binocular vision and his deaf ear severely affects his ability to balance.

All of the above, of course, being more plausible than saying he used EPO or that his Iron shots were really transfusions.

Now, can someone explain why straitjacker's post is still there?

Dave.