Tour de France Who will win the 2023 Tour De France GC? Rest Day Poll 2

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Who will win the Tour


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I would rate both about equal as TT riders. But this year, UAE seems to have a better setup than last year, and TJV has a (far) worse setup than last year.
If you use Van Aert as the benchmark, sure. But I don't think Vingegaard's setup has changed much, if at all.

UAE have certainly improved, and I think Pogacar is the favourite for Tuesday, but more because I know what he can do on a super hard TT like this. With Vingegaard I really have no idea, maybe a "regular" TT would suit him more compared to Pogacar.
 
Unless anything crazy happens like in 2019, this Tour is on its way to being an all timer. And I have a strong feeling that the best is yet to come.

I was strongly against the idea of just like 20kms of ITT in this Tour, but goddamn, now that tuesday's time trial makes me so pumped up lol. Obviously it would still be better had it been twice as long, but I still love the idea of the gap between them being so small before the ITT.

No idea what happens on wednesday, and saturday will be an epic chaos as well most likely.

With that said if I have to predict, Pogacar to take yellow tomorrow with a very small gap, and then take it to Paris
 
If you use Van Aert as the benchmark, sure. But I don't think Vingegaard's setup has changed much, if at all.

UAE have certainly improved, and I think Pogacar is the favourite for Tuesday, but more because I know what he can do on a super hard TT like this. With Vingegaard I really have no idea, maybe a "regular" TT would suit him more compared to Pogacar.
Jumbo's TT setup has just been underwhelming throughout the year. It's not just Wout.
Col de la loze is tailor made for Vingegaard, the first real mountain to go beyond 2000m which is where Vinge excels.
Tourmalet says hi.
 
Jumbo's TT setup has just been underwhelming throughout the year. It's not just Wout.
It hasn't been for Vingegaard though. I think the new rules that benefit taller riders haven't worked for Jumbo, for whatever reason. But these rules don't apply to Vingegaard so not much has changed for him. And the two TTs he's done so far were fine.

Like I said, I still think Pogacar is the favourite, but not necessarily because of equipment. It's just a lot of pace changes, a bike change, a climb at the end... the course just screams Pogacar.
 
It hasn't been for Vingegaard though. I think the new rules that benefit taller riders haven't worked for Jumbo, for whatever reason. But these rules don't apply to Vingegaard so not much has changed for him. And the two TTs he's done so far were fine.

Like I said, I still think Pogacar is the favourite, but not necessarily because of equipment. It's just a lot of pace changes, a bike change, a climb at the end... the course just screams Pogacar.
I do agree the course suits Pogacar more. Punchier climbs on the route too. I disagree with their being a bike change though. Don't think the steep portion of the last climb is going to be long enough for a bike change. We'll see though. The teams obviously know better than me lol.
 
I think things are looking better for Vingegaard than on the first rest day. Pogi isn't dropping Jonas for small gains anymore. But Jonas hasn't dropped Pogi either. The ITT is probably decided by who is best on the day, who has had the best rest day and all that. tough for me to see other than Pogi or Vinge winning it.
A week ago it was looking like it was all going in Pogi's direction, now it's more status quo again.

Will be fun to see and really interesting if there will be more than 30 s between the pair after the ITT and super interesting to see on stage 17 if Jonas can make a difference on the biggest mountain stage late in the tour or if Pogi doens't really have a weakness after all. Jumbo obviously banking on Jonas having better recovery.

UAE also has the tools to create madness on stage 20 if needed, I hope the Jumbo riders won't be too banged up to put in the effort on stage 17+20.
 
I have a hunch that Pog will do a spectcular TT on tuesday, taking at least 15s on Vingegaard.
Some give Vingegaard the edge because he won over Pog in the TT last year and the year before, stage 20 both times. But last year Pog was too far behind and in 2021 he had a solid ahead of Vingegaard going into the TT-stage. Point being that Pog's motivation then wasn't the same as it will be on tuesday. We saw in 2020 what he can do in a TT when it really counts.

If Pog takes yellow on tuesday it will be absolutely crucial that Kuss has a good day on la Loze for Vingegaard to even have a chance of dropping Pog. Only way I see Vinge dropping Pog is Kuss setting a murdeous tempo for a couple of kilometers when they are above 2000 and then for Vinge to do an explosive attack so that he creates distance before the downhill where he might have an advantage over Pog.
 
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If you use Van Aert as the benchmark, sure. But I don't think Vingegaard's setup has changed much, if at all.

UAE have certainly improved, and I think Pogacar is the favourite for Tuesday, but more because I know what he can do on a super hard TT like this. With Vingegaard I really have no idea, maybe a "regular" TT would suit him more compared to Pogacar.
lol, no i'm not using Van Aert as the benchmark, i'm using Roglic's 2 subpar TT's in the Giro, Foss 's TT's in Algarve and Romandie, Van Aert's TT's in Suisse and Vingegaard's TT in Dauphiné as benchmarks. One too many disappointing TT to be called coincidence.
 
There is not even a conceivable scenario in which one of pogagar or vengegard doesn't win, unless they both abandon the race. So dull, it's hard to care. Preueba villafranca is on Tuesday 25th July looking forward to it.

Lol, why would it be necessary for a third rider to have the possibility to win when there is such an epic battle going on?

It's mind-blowing to me that you sometimes are surpised that people call you a troll.
 
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lol, no i'm not using Van Aert as the benchmark, i'm using Roglic's 2 subpar TT's in the Giro, Foss 's TT's in Algarve and Romandie, Van Aert's TT's in Suisse and Vingegaard's TT in Dauphiné as benchmarks. One too many disappointing TT to be called coincidence.
You don't have evidence to know if it was because of the setup or because they didn't have good legs to do a good TT. Vingegaard did a good TT on dauphine with the same setup. They won the TTT on paris nice.
 
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lol, no i'm not using Van Aert as the benchmark, i'm using Roglic's 2 subpar TT's in the Giro, Foss 's TT's in Algarve and Romandie, Van Aert's TT's in Suisse and Vingegaard's TT in Dauphiné as benchmarks. One too many disappointing TT to be called coincidence.
I'm actually saying that whereas it doesn't affect Vingegaard, it does affect the taller riders on the team because there's new rules for them and somehow Jumbo haven't seemed to be able to make them work. Vingegaard in the Dauphiné is not an example, he did the best TT he's ever done in a race that's not the Tour. He just exploded a bit towards the end.

Roglic, when it mattered, didn't seem to suffer too much from a bad setup as even on the flatter part of the final TT he was already the fastest. He's also probably not changed much on his position, as he's also not very tall.
 
Pogacar got a kicking on the Marie Blanque, but turned the tables already the next day. To me the all important retrospective question is what enabled this fairly unexpected and immediate reversal. Only parts of what I find relevant can be discussed here.

Was MB about Pog's cobwebs due to lack of racing? Perhaps, but OTOH he was firing on all cylinders from day one during shorter efforts. Was Jumbo's greed the driver of the comeback? This sure enabled Pog to strike back, but he also needed better legs than Vingo to do that. The day before he lacked what Vingo had. Was it day to day form fluctuations? Quite possible.

Week 2 Pogacar was on the drivers seat. In my opinion, however, his ability to put Vingo to the sword trended downwards during the week. Did fatigue creep up to him more than Vingo? Perhaps, he did lose some base training for sure. Or did he simply measure his efforts, like yesterday, both to gauge Vingo and save bullets for the TT? This is plausible too.

Moving forward, the important question is how their form trajectories evolve. If week 2 developments were driven by how the two fatigue, Pog may not have the base to peak properly as planned. His base level is high, of course, but the prep was not optimal. If tactics drove the developments, Pog will have the potential to peak next week. Unless of course tactics coincides with the form curve, and he has already expended some of the ammo required. After the reversal, my expectation was to Pog's form would continue to build throughout the week more than it did. That said, Pogacar appears very confident.

The other side of the coin is did Vingo improve or just weaken a bit less? Very hard to say. But in relative terms he did not weaken. In absolute terms they both are Pantani 1997 level. What I find odd is that vingo appears surprisingly tranquillo - as if he has it in the bag, despite only having a slender lead and losing time all week. Don't know if it is foolhardy confidence or what.

Teams and TT equipment will also be relevant, but I am too lazy and pedestrian to analyse them.

So, prediction time.

Scenario 1: Pog's limited base allows for one more monster performance in the TT. He takes the yellow and leads by 15-20sec going to the Loze stage. Jumbo rides like maniacs from the go, Vingo goes long on the Loze and drops Pog as his base caves in. Vingo wins the tour.

Scenario 2: Pog has enough base, peaks and takes the TT by 20-30sec. On the Loze he either defends succesfully to stalemate or drops Vingo there, thus demolishing the hypothesis that altitude after hard stages is his kryptonite. Pog wins the tour.

If there is one thing I believe in in endurance sports it's base, so I'll bite the bullet and go with scenario 1.

People will know that I support anyone but Pog to win, mainly because I don't want anyone to win it all. It's insulting to intelligence in the age of specialisation (division of labor).

But assume the main protagonists roles were reversed. That is, Vingo lacks some base due to missed training and we witnessed a similar development of racing performances with reversed roles -- I would not blink an eye saying that Pog takes the tour.
 
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Pogacar got a kicking on the Marie Blanque, but turned the tables already the next day. To me the all important retrospective question is what enabled this fairly unexpected and immediate reversal. Only parts of what I find relevant can be discussed here.

Was MB about Pog's cobwebs due to lack of racing? Perhaps, but OTOH he was firing on all cylinders from day one during shorter efforts. Was Jumbo's greed the driver of the comeback? This sure enabled Pog to strike back, but he also needed better legs than Vingo to do that. The day before he lacked what Vingo had. Was it day to day form fluctuations? Quite possible.

Week 2 Pogacar was on the drivers seat. In my opinion, however, his ability to put Vingo to the sword trended downwards during the week. Did fatigue creep up to him more than Vingo? Perhaps, he did lose some base training for sure. Or did he simply measure his efforts, like yesterday, both to gauge Vingo and save bullets for the TT? This is plausible too.

Moving forward, the important question is how their form trajectories evolve. If week 2 developments were driven by how the two fatigue, Pog may not have the base to peak properly as planned. His base level is high, of course, but the prep was not optimal. If tactics drove the developments, Pog will have the potential to peak next week. Unless of course tactics coincides with the form curve, and he has already expended some of the ammo required. After the reversal, my expectation was to Pog's form would continue to build throughout the week more than it did. That said, Pogacar appears very confident.

The other side of the coin is did Vingo improve or just weaken a bit less? Very hard to say. But in relative terms he did not weaken. In absolute terms they both are Pantani 1997 level. What I find odd is that vingo appears surprisingly tranquillo - as if he has it in the bag, despite only having a slender lead and losing time all week. Don't know if it is foolhardy confidence or what.

Teams and TT equipment will also be relevant, but I am too lazy and pedestrian to analyse them.

So, prediction time.

Scenario 1: Pog's base limited base allows for one more monster performance in the TT. He takes the yellow and leads by 15-20sec going to Loze. Jumbo rides like maniacs from the go, Vingo goes long on the Loze and drops Pog as his base caves in.

Scenario 2: Pog has enough base, peaks and takes the TT by 20-30sec. On the Loze he either defends succesfully to stalemate or drops Vingo there, thus demolishing the hypothesis that altitude after hard stages is his kryptonite.

If there is one thing I believe in endurance sports it's base, so I'll bite the bullet and go with scenario 1.

People will know that I support anyone but Pog to win, mainly because I don't want anyone to win it all. It's insulting to intelligence in the age of specialisation (division of labor).

But assume the main protagonists roles were reversed. That is, Vingo lacks some base due to missed training and we witnessed a similar development of racing performances with reversed roles -- I would not blink an eye saying that Pog takes the tour.
It seems you do not allow for a third option: that Pogacar's recovery and ability to handle fatigue are just a bit less than Vingegaard's. Perfect prep or no perfect prep. Which is what Jumbo are betting on, and why they've made the race hard at every possibility. Both of your scenarios are based on the principle that Pogacar is just the better rider and something has to have gone awry for Vingegaard to win. Personally I don't think we've ever seen a better Pogacar. Apart from the Marie-Blanque, of course.
 
Pogacar got a kicking on the Marie Blanque, but turned the tables already the next day. To me the all important retrospective question is what enabled this fairly unexpected and immediate reversal. Only parts of what I find relevant can be discussed here.

Was MB about Pog's cobwebs due to lack of racing? Perhaps, but OTOH he was firing on all cylinders from day one during shorter efforts. Was Jumbo's greed the driver of the comeback? This sure enabled Pog to strike back, but he also needed better legs than Vingo to do that. The day before he lacked what Vingo had. Was it day to day form fluctuations? Quite possible.

I think most of the difference between stages 5 and 6 was Vingegaard spending more pennies on stage 5, Pogi dropped back and got Yates to pull and Vingegaard eating too much wind on Tourmalet and early part of Cambasque. On stage 5 Jonas took a lot of seconds after the peak of MB and he was all gassed out when they reached the line, lost 2 secs to the guys sprinting.
But yeah Pogi might have had some rust on the ol' legs from not riding a prep-race.

I think Vingegaard and Jumbo are very confident that third week is going to be their week because Vingegaard recovers better. They might be wrong in general or they might be wrong because Pogacar's lack of June racing is a help in third week or they might be right. In either case I think Jumbo has to believe that Vingegaard will win the war of attrition, because he quite clearly is never going to win the war of sprinting up steep percentages. IF Jumbo are wrong Vingegaard still finishes 2nd, which would be the highest he can finish unless they are right.

Especially here in the weekend it looks like Vingegaard at least thinks he has now survived the most tricky part where he potentially could have been up to a minute behind Pogi.
 
In the last interview Pogi said " I felt the climb was too easy for Vingo, he was feeling too good, it wasn't a good idea to attack him hard here ".

In my opinion, the true difference will be made on loze. One of them is going to lose more than 20 secs there.
Agree, the one who is behind must risk it. Especially Vingegaard because I have a harder time seeing him dropping Pog on stage 20 than the other way around. If Vinge is behind after the TT I'm sure we will see an all out effort by TJV and Vinge, and that could either pay off or backfire.
 
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It seems you do not allow for a third option: that Pogacar's recovery and ability to handle fatigue are just a bit less than Vingegaard's. Perfect prep or no perfect prep. Which is what Jumbo are betting on, and why they've made the race hard at every possibility. Both of your scenarios are based on the principle that Pogacar is just the better rider and something has to have gone awry for Vingegaard to win. Personally I don't think we've ever seen a better Pogacar. Apart from the Marie-Blanque, of course.
Completely agree, and his attacks have been more lethal than I have ever seen. I'm positive that no one except Vinge among the best GC riders in the world would be even close to follow Pog's attacks. In 2021 we saw Vinge and Carapaz manage to stay fairly close on several occasions when Pog attacked hard. Last year he couldn't drop Vinge at all. And this year, when Vinge seems better than ever, Pog has already dropped him three times.
 
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Service announcement:

Rest day 1 poll:
Pogacar 68.5 %
Vingegaard 21.5 %

Rest day 2 poll:
Pogacar 51.5 %
Vingegaard 43.5 %
Makes sense if you look at the trajectory (ignoring Marie-Blanque, which was clearly an anomaly). The gap Pogi creates gets smaller all the time, and yesterday was the first time where he didn't get a gap at all.

In the last interview Pogi said " I felt the climb was too easy for Vingo, he was feeling too good, it wasn't a good idea to attack him hard here ".

In my opinion, the true difference will be made on loze. One of them is going to lose more than 20 secs there.
Are we now getting both riders who claim that they're better on harder climbs, and that the stage was too easy for them? At least neither of them will have that excuse on Col de la Loze, although you could argue that with Jumbo hurt from that crash they won't be able to make the climb as hard as they would want to.
 
It seems you do not allow for a third option: that Pogacar's recovery and ability to handle fatigue are just a bit less than Vingegaard's. Perfect prep or no perfect prep. Which is what Jumbo are betting on, and why they've made the race hard at every possibility. Both of your scenarios are based on the principle that Pogacar is just the better rider and something has to have gone awry for Vingegaard to win. Personally I don't think we've ever seen a better Pogacar. Apart from the Marie-Blanque, of course.
That's a possibility, but I don't think I assumed Pog better. Quite the contrary, I just tried to base the musings on the short run developments in the here and now, and avoid making conclusions derived from assumptions of the two riders' long run characteristics, because it is a turbulent and uncertain partly incomplete event we are discussing here. (*)

If the message read like it had a pro-Pog bias, it was unintentional, and I rather take it as a compliment. The POV was focused on Pog, because IMHO Vingo's form is less unknown at the moment. But the argument was essentially that barring accidents, whoever of the two has the broader base wins.

But, am I terribly mistaken if I think that what you suggested would be a special case of scenario 1 (Pog's current base crumbles in the blender that is the TDF '23) derived from the long run assumption that Vingo has a better recovery? This may or may not have been the case, but surely one cannot assume it automatically applies this time, too?

We simply cannot know. (Jumbo will surely have more educated guesses, though).

Cheers!
 

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