Who would win if TDF was raced as TT ???

[hrotha]

well my point was made in my previous point, if you or any other people can't be bothered reading that I'm not gonna repeat myself (...)
Bit of reading should have made this clear.

I read your previous post alright, it just so happens it came down to "anyone who disagrees with me is an ignorant fool."

I'm not saying Cuddles > AC at GTs this year, but I definitely can see how both positions are reasonable and have merit.

 

[cineteq]

An opinion from an Australian and TDF fan boy: Contador was better in the GT's than Evans this year. His performance in the Giro was more impressive than Cadel's in the Tour, plus he had that 5th place finish, less than 4 minutes from victory, despite the obstacles that he encountered.

It seems Contador is the only one who wasn't either not in form, injured, or whatever. Wow Contador won by 6 minutes, but nobody talks about the waterdown Giro field. Who did really come to race or was in-form other than Contador? Who was really prepared? Did anybody mention how unbalanced the Giro was? A pure climber-made only Giro? You see my point.

Cadel won the best race there is. Gilbert probably the only guy who can dispute Cadel rider of the year.

 

[cineteq]

You have to win against the best but all Evans did was beat Schleck. VDB, Wiggins and Gesink crashed. Menchov not allowed in. Nibali and Scarponi (both of whom have beaten Cadel last time they met) never entered. Samu sabotaged by organizers. Contador tired after Giro, crashed, and sabotaged by organisers.

Funny that you analyze Evans and the Tour that way, but you fail to analyze the Giro objectively. See my previous post for more. Namely, who did Contador really beat?

 

[The Hitch]

I am surprised that you of all people would find me calling you delusional 'mean spirited'. You need to have some cement if you take offence to that especially what I have to put with sometimes which I often don't say anything.

What is it that you do not understand about the concept of PE. Point, explain.

You keep drafting of to some other explanations.

The latest one being that i should not be offended by your choice of words.

But what i am asking for, is that if you are going to tell me im wrong, i would like you to show me the respect of EXPLAINING, where I am wrong, and why i am wrong.

You still have not done this.

You told me I am wrong on 1 point (using the word delusional), in responce to a very long post i made that covered several topics, and have spent the next god knows how many posts avoiding an explanation.

This is very much on topic by the way because what I am trying to find out what in my post was so so wrong to be judged worthy of being called delusional.

Regarding Contador, I personally think you have increased your support for him significantly. Just my opinion.

This is me in July.

Having Contador in a race is like 10 christmases rolled into one.

So no, my support for Contador as with all riders dates back further than 3 weeks ago.

 

[The Hitch]

I am surprised that you of all people would find me calling you delusional 'mean spirited'. You need to have some cement if you take offence to that especially what I have to put with sometimes which I often don't say anything.

What is it that you do not understand about the concept of PE. Point, explain.

You keep drafting of to some other explanations.

The latest one being that i should not be offended by your choice of words.

But what i am asking for, is that if you are going to tell me im wrong, i would like you to show me the respect of EXPLAINING, where I am wrong, and why i am wrong.

You still have not done this.

You told me I am wrong on 1 point (using the word delusional), in responce to a very long post i made that covered several topics, and have spent the next god knows how many posts avoiding an explanation.

This is very much on topic by the way because what I am trying to find out what in my post was so so wrong to be judged worthy of being called delusional.

Regarding Contador, I personally think you have increased your support for him significantly. Just my opinion.

This is me in July.

Having Contador in a race is like 10 christmases rolled into one.

So no, my support for Contador as with all riders dates back further than 3 weeks ago.

Funny that you analyze Evans and the Tour that way, but you fail to analyze the Giro objectively. See my previous post for more. Namely, who did Contador really beat?

Your cheap sleight of hand fools nobody. You said that the best rider has to beat the best riders.

Cadel did not do this.

You mentioned nothing of the Giro or Contador and neither did I.

It was strictly Cadel, did he beat the best riders in the Tour, and it is very very clear that he did not. Hence your point about how Cadel is the best because he beat the best riders fails.

So your attempt to bring Contador and the Giro into this subdiscussion, it seems to me, betrays a frustration with how well the previous point may have hit home.

 

[El Pistolero]

Obviously Contador. Andy Schleck would even finish behind Cavendish in such a Tour. He'd lose many hours on the flat stages at such a Tour.

As for Cadel, he wouldn't win simply because Contador is a far better climber and in form I'd say he's a better time trial specialist.

He rode most of the Alpe stage in front and still finished third. That was after a heavy Giro and crashes in the Tour. Cadel finished behind him despite sitting in the peloton all day, do you need more evidence?

 

[sublimit]

I'm more interested in who comes flat last Lantern Rouge after either Chris Froome, Tony Martin or a Navy Seal gets the win.. Somebody like Tom Boonen considering he cant climb or ITT maybe..

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm more interested in who comes flat last Lantern Rouge after either Chris Froome, Tony Martin or a Navy Seal gets the win.. Somebody like Tom Boonen considering he cant climb or ITT maybe..

Tom Boonen can do a time trial

 

[Walkman]

As for Cadel, he wouldn't win simply because Contador is a far better climber and in form I'd say he's a better time trial specialist.

Better climber does not equal better MTT:er, just saying. Think Ullrich vs Basso -04.

He rode most of the Alpe stage in front and still finished third. That was after a heavy Giro and crashes in the Tour. Cadel finished behind him despite sitting in the peloton all day, do you need more evidence?

This has to be one of the worst arguments ever. Who's to say Cadel did not just watched Andy in order to save strenght to the ITT the day after? He knows Andy has a better kick so he can't get the jump on him by attacking so the only other option would be to ride a hard pace and grind him down. Though this favours Andy since he can sit in the slipstream. So, the obviously best choice would be to follow Andys wheel and smash him in the ITT the following day, wich is exactly what he did.

So to use this stage and as evidence when arguing , the way you do, is kind of stupid I would say. Unless you think that Cadel did ride as hard as he could all the way up...

Conclusion, stop being so biased when arguing and focus on the real facts.

Just for the record, Cadel did not just sat in the peloton, he did hunt them pretty badly, especially on the decent along with Casar. Voeckler was dropped by that group, just so you know.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm more interested in who comes flat last Lantern Rouge after either Chris Froome, Tony Martin or a Navy Seal gets the win.. Somebody like Tom Boonen considering he cant climb or ITT maybe..

Luís León Sánchez.

He will finish behind Contador, Martin, Cancellara, Wiggins, Evans, Menchov, Larsson and Sánchez.

Everybody else will HD at some point.

 

[El Pistolero]

Better climber does not equal better MTT:er, just saying. Think Ullrich vs Basso -04.



This has to be one of the worst arguments ever. Who's to say Cadel did not just watched Andy in order to save strenght to the ITT the day after? He knows Andy has a better kick so he can't get the jump on him by attacking so the only other option would be to ride a hard pace and grind him down. Though this favours Andy since he can sit in the slipstream. So, the obviously best choice would be to follow Andys wheel and smash him in the ITT the following day, wich is exactly what he did.

So to use this stage and as evidence when arguing , the way you do, is kind of stupid I would say. Unless you think that Cadel did ride as hard as he could all the way up...

Conclusion, stop being so biased when arguing and focus on the real facts.

Just for the record, Cadel did not just sat in the peloton, he did hunt them pretty badly, especially on the decent along with Casar. Voeckler was dropped by that group, just so you know.

Ah, so Cadel Evans didn't take time back when he could just for the fun of it and decided to risk everything on the time trial for a third time? That's pure tactical brilliance!

If he could follow Contador then why did he never do it? Because he knew he couldn't follow Contador. Neither could Andy Schleck. Or do you also think Andy was capable of following Contador?

As for your MTT thingie. When did Cadel Evans ever win a mountain time trial or a hilly time trial for that matter? How many times has Contador attacked from 7km to go on a MTF and won solo? Compare that to Cadel Evans

Voeckler was dropped because Contador finished him off. Had nothing to do with Cadel Evans.

 

[theyoungest]

Luís León Sánchez.

He will finish behind Contador, Martin, Cancellara, Wiggins, Evans, Menchov, Larsson and Sánchez.

Everybody else will HD at some point.

Larsson can only do that if Cancellara rides 100 meters in front of him. Luis Leon can only do that if all other participants crash into barbed wire.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I read your previous post alright, it just so happens it came down to "anyone who disagrees with me is an ignorant fool."

I'm not saying Cuddles > AC at GTs this year, but I definitely can see how both positions are reasonable and have merit.

That was my summary yes, because others were posting like cuddles has no opposition this year... they posted aggressively, I did the same with counter arguments. but I believe I made valid points and my reasoning was sound regarding conta anyway.

As for the aggressive posting, tbh I have no issues being a jerk.

 

[CQmanager]

How about Johnny Hoogerland? He got big engine and he can get over the hills without losing too much time

 

[dgodave]

Lancy Pants!
.
Havent followed the whole thread. But Lance has a chance at this goofy race. Dont you think?
.
Him and Indurain... in their prime, of course.
.

 

[danjo007]

my opinion - and its just as good as hitchies contador may do better on some stages but not for the entire tour. i doubt he'd even finish it if it we an ITT.

 

[danjo007]

and lance prime [as above] would beat contador prime. ouch thats gonna upset some people round here.

 

[woodie]

Ah, so Cadel Evans didn't take time back when he could just for the fun of it and decided to risk everything on the time trial for a third time? That's pure tactical brilliance!

If he could follow Contador then why did he never do it? Because he knew he couldn't follow Contador. Neither could Andy Schleck. Or do you also think Andy was capable of following Contador?

As for your MTT thingie. When did Cadel Evans ever win a mountain time trial or a hilly time trial for that matter? How many times has Contador attacked from 7km to go on a MTF and won solo? Compare that to Cadel Evans

Voeckler was dropped because Contador finished him off. Had nothing to do with Cadel Evans.

Turned out to be didn't it? Because guess what, Cadel slaughtered Andy in the TT and won the Tour de France, just incase you forgot

Cadel didn't need to follow Contador because of the time Contador had already lost, he only had to manage him, which he did, he also knew he could beat Andy in the TT as opposed to open up a significant gap on the Alpe which he would have struggled to do.

Bottom line, Contador was out of the GC race so Andy and Cadel didn't have to follow him that late in the stage, they had to manage the time, which they did, and watch each other. Cadel was always going to put significant time into Andy in that TT

 

[Martin318is]

Turned out to be didn't it? Because guess what, Cadel slaughtered Andy in the TT and won the Tour de France, just incase you forgot

Cadel didn't need to follow Contador because of the time Contador had already lost, he only had to manage him, which he did, he also knew he could beat Andy in the TT as opposed to open up a significant gap on the Alpe which he would have struggled to do.

Bottom line, Contador was out of the GC race so Andy and Cadel didn't have to follow him that late in the stage, they had to manage the time, which they did, and watch each other. Cadel was always going to put significant time into Andy in that TT

All true but - more interestingly - Andy clearly thought he DID need to chase down Contador and that was why he kept trying to convince Cadel to work to catch him. This implied that Andy was actually scared that Contador would get close enough to him on time that he would pass Andy in the TT.

In any event, what this stage really showed was that Cadel is mentally strong enough to put a solo effort in to chase rivals who are working together while at the same time giving a free ride to a bunch of his other rivals. That pretty much reinforces what I said earlier - this event would be won by a very strong mental effort - more so than a physical one. Therefore it would be won by the likes of Cadel or Contador (in the GT ranks) OR a super tough Domestique in the mould of Jens, or to a lesser extent a strong leader like Cancellara, etc.

The most interesting thing isnt who would win it, it is who out of the pro peloton would be mentally strong enough to keep going in the second or third week.

 

[El Pistolero]

Turned out to be didn't it? Because guess what, Cadel slaughtered Andy in the TT and won the Tour de France, just incase you forgot

Cadel didn't need to follow Contador because of the time Contador had already lost, he only had to manage him, which he did, he also knew he could beat Andy in the TT as opposed to open up a significant gap on the Alpe which he would have struggled to do.

Bottom line, Contador was out of the GC race so Andy and Cadel didn't have to follow him that late in the stage, they had to manage the time, which they did, and watch each other. Cadel was always going to put significant time into Andy in that TT

Just in case you forgot, that's how he lost the Tour multiple times already

 

[woodie]

Just in case you forgot, that's how he lost the Tour multiple times already

I'm very aware of that dw. But it worked this time didn't it? So it turns out it was a great tactical move because it worked this time

It's interesting you pick that bit to respond to as opposed the part with substance. Says a lot about your argument me thinks

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm very aware of that dw. But it worked this time didn't it? So it turns out it was a great tactical move because it worked this time

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Just because you won doesn't mean it was a great tactical move.

I don't remember everything any more about that stage, but the Schlecks were actively chasing down Contador. If Cadel Evans had the legs he would have tried to put some more distance between him and the Schlecks. But let's be honest, we all know Evans can't do 7km solos on a MTF and stay away.

 

[hrotha]

I'm very aware of that dw. But it worked this time didn't it? So it turns out it was a great tactical move because it worked this time

What. No, I don't think that's how it works.

 

[woodie]

What. No, I don't think that's how it works.

Ok, I worded that completely wrong. The last two times he tried it it failed yes. But in this situation, at this Tour, it was a great tactical move that worked at this particular tour

 

[The Hitch]

and lance prime [as above] would beat contador prime. ouch thats gonna upset some people round here.

Plateau de Beille

2002 - Lance Armstrong 45.43

2004 Lance Armstrong 45.30

2007 Alberto Contador 44.08