Why Alberto Contador is Cycling's One True Champion

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Maxiton said:
I think you are being obtuse so that you can argue against what you wish I'd said instead of what I actually did say.
I responded to the exact words you wrote.
Maxiton said:
Do what no one else had done, or even been in position to do: defy them as champion.
If what you wrote is inconsistent with what you had written earlier, I fail to see how that's equivalent to floating a straw man. In any case: why the focus on Marco and Alberto ? On the straight terms of your argument (I still don't know why only the Verbruggen administration matters), among those still working in cycling from that era, wasn't Vino much more of a rebel? Or Richard, for that mater? And if he was so much of a threat to the godfathers of cycling, why is AC not on the same boat as other "champions" like Landis or the Chicken?

On the word revolution, then I should clarify the air quotes were not literal quotes. You were on about how this inspired change in all of us.
Maxiton said:
Contador stole some fire from the mountain (to take a line from Steve Jobs) and brought it back to where it rightfully belongs: away from the corrupt creeps controlling the sport, controlling its teams and riders, back to those who make the sport.
Maxiton said:
Under tyranny, the compromised spirit can be forged into that of a champion and assert itself in defiance, as Contador showed. Which makes it all the more important to point out the tyranny and corruption and compromise from which the champion spirit arose. In so doing we make some progress towards honesty in professional sport, and derive some inspiration for our own struggles.
And the Jobs quote you were alluding to was really about revolutionary change, IMHO:
Steve Jobs (External) said:
"Well, that's what I'm doing with Apple. By building affordable personal computers and putting one on every desk, in every hand, I'm giving people power. They don't have to go through the high priests of mainframe - they can access information themselves. They can steal fire from the mountain. And this is going to inspire far more change than any nonprofit."
 
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djpbaltimore said:
Doping does in fact make you a cheat.

I don't see any scenario where Armstrong wins in 2009, unless he had gotten to ride a tandem with Contador.

The course was watered down. The soft pedaling over the Tourmalet was a joke. Turning the team against Contador. Driving off in the team car. Taking the best wheels forcing Contador to buy his own. Lance did try his best to create that very scenario.
 
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Rob27172 said:
I am sorry but the whole analogy of one man against the corrupt upper echelons is about as far from the truth as it is possible to imagine.
How can contador? a racer who has long been within the sport itself and has played by and adhered to the rules, both those rules of an external and those of an internal nature, be anything other than another cog in the wheel?
How can a man who rode for the now completely disgraced ONCE squad who were probably one of the best systemic dopers of the early 2000's be anything other than one of the protected ones that you were alluding to originally.
He was then tarnished with operation puerto, and only saved from further embarrasment by the spanish establishment who stood out and told the world he and other spanish riders were innocent - therby ruining an ongoing investigation and basically ensuring there would never be any trials or prosecutions.
Then when he was finally busted at the behest of the cycling establishment (if we believe your version) was then exonerated by the spanish prime minister no less.
If ever there was an establishment protected rider it is the chosen one Alberto the doper.
The fact that the UCI then found a new golden child in the Team Sky story and their chosen riders to take on the mantle of the new miracle generation is the only reason that AC has not won more races.
He knows that as he stayed with firstly Astana and then Mr 60% and Saxo bank (later tinkoff) and as SKY was the new golden child and ASTANA became the naughty child in the classroom, thanks mainly to vinokourov and his refusal to show any remorse whatsoever for his years of blatant doping abuses and then Tinkoff and Riis fell out with UCI ove Bjarne and his issues and Tinkoff and his outspoken views. That is what killed the Alberto shinning star.
If he had signed for Sky he would have won the last 3 tours and who knows how many other GT's

Alberto is no hero , He is no true champion, he is a bike rider in the midst of an entertainment industry that lost any semblance to sport a long long time ago.

Any other view is yours and you are entitled to it but I am afraid it is naive at best.
That is your view and you are entitled to it but I am afraid it is naive at best.
 
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djpbaltimore said:
Doping does in fact make you a cheat.

I don't see any scenario where Armstrong wins in 2009, unless he had gotten to ride a tandem with Contador.
Lance finished little over 1 minute behind Andy. It is not hard to imagine that, had Contador not attacked in Verbier, not worked with the Schlecks on Grand Bornand and worked for Lance whenever he had been in trouble, Lance could have won.
 
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Rob27172 said:
If you want to claim someone as a rebel and a hero and someone who did not give in to money or the system; may I point you in the direction of Graeme Obree
A man who turned down the professional contracts thrown at him due to his dislike of the drugs and systemic cheating he saw; as he was courted by the big teams and a man with his own very public issues he had struggled with.
And someone totally betrayed by the sport he loved and derided and ridiculed by the UCI and who DID stand up to them and beat them at their own game.
Not the likes of pantani who made his millions within the sport and played the game and cried foul when he got caught and went off the rails.

If you want to find a hero they are out there

You might need to look outside of your favourite riders though to find them.
It is all a matter of perception.
 
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dacooley said:
if iconizing one rider and black demonizing his principal opponents throughout their careers is not a fan favoritism, what is this? probably objective reality, huh?
I would appreciate it if you could point out someone iconizing one rider and "black demonizing" his principal opponents. Of course, we all have are favorites, it is completely natural. We can't control what and who we like, our emotions are almost always a subconcious and often irrational response. However, it is very much possible to view the bigger picture with objectivity despite having your likes and dislikes.
Disclaimer: I do not mean to suggest I am objective when I post I believe Contador is a true cycling champion, and I am sure Maxiton is also aware that him calling Contador "Cycling's one true champion" is subjective, an opinion. It is possible to analyze a situation or problem objectively to ultimately draw a subjective conclusion. In many cases, a conclusion requires interpretation of facts, and this interpretation is, again, subjective.

I agree that fans who demonize certain riders for doping yet stick their head in the sand when it comes to suspicions regarding their own favorites can be quite annoying and frustrating, but I somehow doubt you will find many of them in the Contador camp. I feel many Contador fans have come to accept that there is doping in this sport and that their favorite rider is a part in this.
 
I will propably be torn to shreads for this coment. I never recognised Pantani as a victim, as an idiot - propably yes. Why was he laughing at those climbing records? If i would be on his place then i would at least slow down after the Festina affair in '99 and keep my HCT low enough to not be caught. I would propably change my interst into Vuelta to have this metaphorical 3GT belt (preferably '99 or '00 editions). He won Giro and Tour in '99, no need to show of like he did in Giro '99.

I think i prefer not to know why this thread even exists. I will be a lil bit harsh here, but i'm not insulting anyone here or any rider, it's just a metaphor. Froome is just an "organic leftover" while Contador is just a perfumed "organic leftover". But i have nothing against that as far as they're racing properly.
 
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LaFlorecita said:
dacooley said:
if iconizing one rider and black demonizing his principal opponents throughout their careers is not a fan favoritism, what is this? probably objective reality, huh?
I would appreciate it if you could point out someone iconizing one rider and "black demonizing" his principal opponents. Of course, we all have are favorites, it is completely natural. We can't control what and who we like, our emotions are almost always a subconcious and often irrational response. However, it is very much possible to view the bigger picture with objectivity despite having your likes and dislikes.
Disclaimer: I do not mean to suggest I am objective when I post I believe Contador is a true cycling champion, and I am sure Maxiton is also aware that him calling Contador "Cycling's one true champion" is subjective, an opinion. It is possible to analyze a situation or problem objectively to ultimately draw a subjective conclusion. In many cases, a conclusion requires interpretation of facts, and this interpretation is, again, subjective.

I agree that fans who demonize certain riders for doping yet stick their head in the sand when it comes to suspicions regarding their own favorites can be quite annoying and frustrating, but I somehow doubt you will find many of them in the Contador camp. I feel many Contador fans have come to accept that there is doping in this sport and that their favorite rider is a part in this.
for the most part i referred to one of the key points highlighted by maxiton. nothing can shake mightiness of bertie, one of the greats in cycling history. notwithstanding what one's perception of doping with ease draws the line between a genuine cycling hero and crooks who disgrace already many times disgraced cycling Is something really difficult to understand for me. the thing is la or sky fans can do absolutely the same and they won't be more or less irrational.
 
May 14, 2010
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LaFlorecita said:
Maxiton, you're doing a really good job fighting the good fight, keep it up :)

Thanks, Flo. :)

LaFlorecita said:
It is all a matter of perception.

Agreed. What I've tried to do here is describe the situation as it is based upon what we know - in order to provide context; then, interpret events within that context. I point out that my interpretation can be seen as a parable.

The context is more or less objective, but it does require some conjecture and reasonable inference - just as it did when we and others were putting together the case against Armstrong.

My interpretation of events, and the parable I draw from it, are necessarily subjective. It's understandable that some people will reject this interpretation, no worries. For them the parable will have no value.
 
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ebandit said:
....of course we all have our favourites......sit back and enjoy just don't go putting

them on pedestals claiming that they are better than other cheats

...........and most definitely not better than those that may not be cheating

Mark L
Ironically, under their exquisite logic, it's the former that bugs me more than the latter. I mean, sure, in a framework were anti-doping is but a "cudgel" used by the wicked UCI in order to break the innate purity of spirit of athletes, then the outright dopers can be considered "heroes (I'm in no way endorsing this, BTW, just following the white rabbit). But what makes Contador so special among those unwilling to put on more than the thinnest veneer of cleanzliness? There are even bolder dopers in cycling that were quite "successful". Why is Alberto the king of the shameless dopers?
 
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If you don't agree with Maxiton, fair enough, but don't twist his words.
If you cannot understand what he is saying, perhaps it is better to just avoid this thread or to stop replying because nothing is more tiresome than reading the same misinterpretations of his opinion over and over again.

carton said:
ebandit said:
....of course we all have our favourites......sit back and enjoy just don't go putting

them on pedestals claiming that they are better than other cheats

...........and most definitely not better than those that may not be cheating

Mark L
Ironically under their exquisite logic it's the former that bugs me more than the latter. I mean, sure, in a framework were anti-doping is but a "cudgel" used by the wicked UCI in order to break the innate purity of spirit of athletes, then the outright dopers can be considered "heroes (I'm in no way endorsing this, BTW, just following the white rabbit). But what makes Alberto so special among those unwilling to put on more than the thinnest veneer of cleanzliness? There are even bolder dopers in cycling that were quite "successful". Why is he the king of the shameless dopers?
He isn't. This isn't just about doping. Read the very first post of this thread again. The world isn't black and white.
 
Nov 20, 2015
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Maxiton said:
LaFlorecita said:
Maxiton, you're doing a really good job fighting the good fight, keep it up :)

Thanks, Flo. :)

LaFlorecita said:
It is all a matter of perception.

Agreed. What I've tried to do here is describe the situation as it is based upon what we know - in order to provide context; then, interpret events within that context. I point out that my interpretation can be seen as a parable.

The context is more or less objective, but it does require some conjecture and reasonable inference - just as it did when we and others were putting together the case against Armstrong.

My interpretation of events, and the parable I draw from it, are necessarily subjective. It's understandable that some people will reject this interpretation, no worries. For them the parable will have no value.

So if I understand your polemic aright, your position is that Contador is cycling's one true champion because he chose not to knuckle under in one race, TdeF 2010? Is that correct?
 
May 14, 2010
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Põhja Konn said:
gooner said:
He's a fraud. End of.

The world has never been and never will be black and white. Everyone who thinks otherwise have some sort of personal bias blinding their eyes.

LaFlorecita said:
If you don't agree with Maxiton, fair enough, but don't twist his words.
If you cannot understand what he is saying, perhaps it is better to just avoid this thread or to stop replying because nothing is more tiresome than reading the same misinterpretations of his opinion over and over again.

carton said:
Why is he the king of the shameless dopers?
He isn't. This isn't just about doping. Read the very first post of this thread again. The world isn't black and white.

Quoted for truth.
 
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LaFlorecita said:
If you don't agree with Maxiton, fair enough, but don't twist his words.
If you cannot understand what he is saying, perhaps it is better to just avoid this thread or to stop replying because nothing is more tiresome than reading the same misinterpretations of his opinion over and over again.
He isn't. This isn't just about doping. Read the very first post of this thread again. The world isn't black and white.
I think my shadow perception and highlight detail is decent, but I fail to see where I've in any way expressed a Manichean perspective on doping. And I think I'm making a major effort to view his argument from his prism.

I'm not trying to "twist his words", but to frame his "parable" into a concise argument as to why Contador is "Cycling's One True Champion". The way I read it, he makes it clear than he thinks anti-doping is a cudgel to intimidate riders. This is central (he spends several paragraphs on PED's and anti-doping) to his first post, which I have re-read once more upon your insistence. Perhaps you may want to do so as well. The cudgel metaphor. which he introduces later and I find particularly useful, is his language. By not "knuckling under" and resisting said cudgel, in his parable, Contador is destroying the oppressive arm of tyranny. Hence he is "our" champion. In his "achievements", he is not only helping to save the sport from corruption, he is inspiring us in our own "struggles". Is this not so?

I've made my objections to his entire outlook clear. But even within this(in my opinion warped and unedifying) view, I fail to see how him being allowed to repeatedly "triumph" on the UCI and ASO's own arena is particularly defiant. And even more importantly: why is he is a greater (if you explicit double negatives appealing) anti-anti-doper than any of the other similar characters of his era?
 
May 14, 2010
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carton said:
I think my shadow perception and highlight detail is decent, but I fail to see where I've in any way expressed a Manichean perspective on doping. And I think I'm making a major effort to view his argument from his prism.

I'm not trying to "twist his words", but to frame his "parable" into a concise argument as to why Contador is "Cycling's One True Champion". The way I read it, he makes it clear than he thinks anti-doping is a cudgel to intimidate riders. This is central (he spends several paragraphs on PED's and anti-doping) to his first post, which I have re-read once more upon your insistence. Perhaps you may want to do so as well. The cudgel metaphor. which he introduces later and I find particularly useful, is his language. By not "knuckling under" and resisting said cudgel, in his parable, Contador is destroying the oppressive arm of tyranny. Hence he is "our" champion. In his "achievements", he is not only helping to save the sport from corruption, he is inspiring us in our own "struggles". Is this not so?

Not destroying but defying. Not saving but resisting. Defending the honor of his position as Patron, and his own honor, come what may.

I've made my objections to his entire outlook clear. But even within this(in my opinion warped and unedifying) view, I fail to see how him being allowed to repeatedly "triumph" on the UCI and ASO's own arena is particularly defiant. And even more importantly: why is he is a greater (if you explicit double negatives appealing) anti-anti-doper than any of the other similar characters of his era?

Maxiton said:
My interpretation of events, and the parable I draw from it, are necessarily subjective. It's understandable that some people will reject this interpretation, no worries. For them the parable will have no value.
 
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LaFlorecita said:
Of course Pantani was a victim, he was a victim of the corrupt leaders in the sport.

Fleur,

You are young, you are lucky enough never to have seen those riders live. So you do not need to jump on this nostalgic bandwagon, nostalgia of the worse era in the cycle sport. You do not have to repeat the crap that oldies keep on throwing. Pantani was the victim of his own pride,his own thirst for glory and his doping and he died from it. Is he an example for the use? I don't think so. Do you realize how cycling's image has been tarnished because of guys like him? How many riders have been victims of his doping? You are Dutch, so why find heroes down in the Med while there are so many close to home? Guys like Frans Maassen or Peter Winnen. They were true Dutch victims. On the other boards I spend quite some times trying to do justice to the likes of Frans Maassen and Edwig Van Hooydonck in the hope that they would some day make people like Pantani frgotten. It was a losing battle of course but I could not not do it.

If eventually Pantani paid for other cheaters, that is not my problems, he shouldn't have cheated, period. Cheaters among themselves? hmm I'll always side with the honest people whoever they be. This is like Al Capone versus George Bugs Moran at Bloody Valentine. Should Moran's men be pitied because they were killed by Capone? The obvious answer is no. Cycling needs credibility. When I had your age I was a big fan of Johan Museeuw. I was bitter against Belgian justice during the Landuyt-Versele affair. I was young and ridiculous and I needed to make a huge effort of self-introspection in order to reform and understand that Museeuw was a crook, in my opinion the biggest in the history of the sport. And even if it seems simplistic, it's obvious to me that there's just one wway to go. Condemn blood doping and hormone-based doping in an absolute and uncompromising way.

Cheers
 
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Maxiton said:
Not destroying but defying. Not saving but resisting. Defending the honor of his position as Patron, and his own honor, come what may.
Ok, then. My summary of your parable seems not entirely unaligned with your intentions, then. If I've spun your words I don't think I've come close to truly twisting them.

And since you alude to the subjective in terms of our remaining differences, it seems clear that we've come to a rhetorical impasse.

However, allow me to once again attempt to convince you that even within your parameters, you've got the wrong guy. Bertie is a shy kid at heart. Even though he wants his name were Andy's is on the ledger, he's hardly antagonized him, or Michele for that matter. He's no patron. He's rarely even mildly assertive. If you wan't someone one to shove it to the UCI, Don Paolo can hardly be outdone. He basically told them to eff off while wearing their rainbow jersey. Piti has made a career out of not giving any ducks what anyone thinks of him or his riding. Vincezo, though he put on the good boy cap when he was young, seems far more assertive now. He's got the throwing water bottles at Froome thing, which can't hurt his case. Aru seems like the most promising of the young guns. He won a GT on a team the UCI was trying to kick out of the WorldTour, for christ's sakes. But, again, no one fits the bill as well as the bereted-up boss of the latter two ragazzi. No has ever stuck it to the UCI (and everyone else) like Vinokourov, Alexander Nikolaevich. Even the prologue to his name is legendary around these parts. If you want someone with the potential to bend reality to his will, he is doubtless your guy. He has truly mastered the strut of a genuine patron, and can flawlessly take a seat like a bona fide capo di tutti capi.
 
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carton said:
However, allow me to once again attempt to convince you that even within your parameters, you've got the wrong guy. Bertie is a shy kid at heart. Even though he wants his name were Andy's is on the ledger, he's hardly antagonized him, or Michele for that matter. He's no patron. He's rarely even mildly assertive.
While I agree with you, I feel this is exactly why his "rebellion" against LA and thus Pat and Hein, was so impressive. I don't think anyone expected that from him. In recent years he's been slightly more outspoken, but until 3 or 4 years ago he would rather keep his head down and stay quiet.
I guess it confirms this "shy kid" also has a very stubborn side :p .
 
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I'm sure this will seem to some as biased. Because I have been a Conta fan for along time.

I choose to see my sport. The one I truly love CYCLING. For what it is. IMHO A Sport that has had doping for as long as it has existed. And probably will continue to. I let the UCI etc. Worry about catching them. What I CANNOT TOLERATE. Is the SKY Media driven BS. It offends me.

With that being said. AC is a Cycling GREAT. A LEGEND! It will be a very long time before you see a rider accomplish what he has, 9 GT's
NOBODY not named The Cannibal can touch that.
 
Maxiton said:
|Note to mods: if you want to move responses to this here from the "Will Contador be juiced" thread, that would be cool|

I posted this in the "Will Contador be Juiced" thread, but it's long and a lot to think about, and covers something I think important in the sport of cycling - or what remains of the sport. So I'm posting it here as a separate thread in hope of facilitating discussion.

Herein I explain as best I can, a) why Contador is a significant figure in cycling - its one true champion - and why his sanction for clenbuterol is largely irrelevant; b) why Sky doping is all but a certainty; and, c) why this is not mere fan favoritism.

Today, in 2016, it's pretty much settled business that cyclesport and doping go hand in hand. They always have. Starting with the end of the Armstrong era and going back through the decades we have it on record that virtually the entire GC was doped. The missing bits, the GC riders whose doping is not documented, are few indeed; but given what is documented, and given as well the attitude of the sport as a whole towards doping, we can infer that while there may have been, literally, one or two or three exceptions - it's possible - the entire GC was doped. If there were exceptions, then, they prove the rule: it's a sport that relies on PEDs.

Fans and sponsors and teams alike regarded this fact with complete equanimity until the death of Tom Simpson in 1967. Since then, however, it's been kept increasingly on the down-low.

e7a7269e-aacd-484d-bc51-bd17a0851c7f.jpg


Keeping it on the down-low opened the sport to all kinds of corruption: intimidation, blackmail, bribery, sabotage, cover-ups, and race-fixing (though, admittedly, race-fixing has always had a role regardless). The UCI, which exists to govern the sport, was not immune from this corruption but complicit in it, due to its additional role of protecting and promoting the sport. Chosen, money-making riders such as Armstrong were protected; while their adversaries and lesser lights were popped. This served to prop up the money making while giving the impression of fighting PED use. Outside of the favored few, then, riders were subject to being caught, and sanctioned, if they stepped out of line, pissed off the wrong person, or simply made a mistake in implementing their own program.

After Armstrong - and after the interlude of Landis, which is its own story, one in which Verbruggen and Armstrong possibly had a hand - cycling had a new champion, Alberto Contador. Contador was an upcoming race leader of the classical European mold, and molded by the sport itself: talented, dedicated, solely focused on his sport. He kept his head down and his mouth shut and followed orders and in so doing met with great success. So far, so good. What had not yet been tested, though - or even forged, even after his first TdF win - was his true mettle as a champion. This finally happened when Armstrong decided to come back - to the team, it turned out, led by Contador himself.

c6f9bb2c-76f4-46dc-8bf1-80f9aa71c1b0.jpg


Now this Spanish boy who had always kept his head down and followed orders faced a true dilemma. What is a champion to do when cycling's capo dei capi, the UCI's own favored son, Verbruggen and Pat's best partner, and BFF of his own team manager, comes back determined to usurp the young champion's role, which the capo dei capi feels is rightfully his and his alone? If the Spanish boy knuckles under he concedes to himself and everyone watching that the champions' role was never truly his and never can be. But if he defies the bosses he has a very clear inkling, this son of cycling, of what's in store.

Well, we know how he responded and how the story played out. We know he won that Tour and how, subsequently, the next year, his blood sample was sent off for extra-special, extraordinary scrutiny - which turned up one one-millionth of a gram of clenbuterol, a controlled substance. And so he was duly sanctioned.

contador-armstrong-podium-face.jpg


In standing up to these creeps and their coercion, in insisting on his role as champion even despite implied consequences, Contador actually proved himself to be champion. Not their champion, but ours, the fans and the riders - for if it isn't our sport, whose is it? In defying them, Contador stole some fire from the mountain (to take a line from Steve Jobs) and brought it back to where it rightfully belongs: away from the corrupt creeps controlling the sport, controlling its teams and riders, back to those who make the sport.

In doing this he redeemed himself as a man, as an athlete, and as champion - and he redeemed the honor of the sport, as well, even if only for a moment. He paid a price - the sanction - as he must have inferred he would; but this sanction, too, was redeemed - absolved - by what he achieved and reclaimed, for himself and for us.

Alberto-Contador-007.jpg


Now the UCI has a new golden boy, a new money making machine: Rupert Murdoch, in the guise of the miraculous Sky team and its unlikely leader, Chris Froome. The Sky team and an entire nation of new, newly enthusiastic, naive, money spending fans.

Given the history, culture, context, and control of the sport as outlined above; and given as well their arguably suspect exploits and antecedents; and given additionally all the money being minted, and even national and corporate soft power being projected: it seems reasonable to look upon Sky with the most wary of eyes, and to question what those eyes think they see.

Cycling has a new golden boy, but as of now it has only one true champion: Alberto Contador.

Agree? Disagree? Discuss.

Agree, from the presence on the bicycle. I can't believe Froome has not been made in the laboratory. I think the greater interests of the sport, also on this site, are appallingly interested.