Why does Wiggins get more favoritism than Menchov? Look a their resumes.

[LaFleur]

Yes, do repeat the Carlos Sastre 2008 mistake. People looked at all iTTs where Carlos no longer was in competition for the overall win and missed the one where he actually rode for the win. The same way people only focused on Cadel's second the year before and forgot how Saster had constantly been in top 10 (moving to top 5) minus that previous year.
No, victories in one week races tell nothing about 3 week races, especially not TdF, where they ride so much harder.
What is important is the shape Menchov shows now, because we know that when in shape, Menchov is a damned good time trialist and a better climber than Fränk Schleck.
The biggest problem Menchov is going to face is his preferred way of saving energy. While the competitors sit aware in the front, he prefers to rest in the middle of the peloton, with the dangers there goes with it. Menchov has more than once been caught by cross-wind attacks and crashes, but if he's lucky enough to avoid those then he will be a clear competitor for the podium.

I'm not saying that Menchov doesn't have a chance to do something in this Tour de France. I think that he could very much get a place in the top 6 or even better, maybe even win the whole thing. I'm just saying that you can't possibly say that Menchov is more of a favourite than Wiggins is. Menchov is a very good time trialist but Wiggins is much better and I also think that Menchov is maybe the best climber(?) in this years TdF when on top form. But Wiggins is certainly good enough to wheelsuck to lose max 30sec on a mountain stage.

 

[theyoungest]

It made me even more surprised when he left the team.
If only we knew actual reasons behind certain actions.

Him screaming after he won the Giro, made you surprised when he left the team 2 years later? I don't get it?

Geox probably just offered more money. And of course in 2010 it seemed like Rabo had an up and coming man with Gesink who might become better than Menchov.

 

[Azabael]

I'm not saying that Menchov doesn't have a chance to do something in this Tour de France. I think that he could very much get a place in the top 6 or even better, maybe even win the whole thing. I'm just saying that you can't possibly say that Menchov is more of a favourite than Wiggins is. Menchov is a very good time trialist but Wiggins is much better and I also think that Menchov is maybe the best climber(?) in this years TdF when on top form. But Wiggins is certainly good enough to wheelsuck to lose max 30sec on a mountain stage.

I agree on seeing Wiggins as a bigger favourite. One word, that might need some backup, says enough. Inconsistency. You never know with Menchov when he's really going to do well, not until the very moment itself. Wiggins on the other hand, has shown this year he's the master of peaking and not just once a year. Add that to the fact that his peaks have throughout the entire season proven to be high enough to take on anyway that challenged him, and I think we have a completed arguement as long as people are not blind for facts.

If he actually wins, is another issue.

From the outside, prolly wasn't getting the respect he deserved because they wanted someone young and Dutch. More or less the same thing that happened to Evans. I'm speculating. Nationalism really is one of my pet hates.

Definitely possible, yes. It could simply be money. It could be the young Dutchies knocking on the door, where as Menchov might not like the pressure of a very talented GC rider along his side threatening his position. It could be one of the things you mentioned or something else. I'd just like to know.

 

[OctaBech]

I'm not saying that Menchov doesn't have a chance to do something in this Tour de France. I think that he could very much get a place in the top 6 or even better, maybe even win the whole thing. I'm just saying that you can't possibly say that Menchov is more of a favourite than Wiggins is. Menchov is a very good time trialist but Wiggins is much better and I also think that Menchov is maybe the best climber(?) in this years TdF when on top form. But Wiggins is certainly good enough to wheelsuck to lose max 30sec on a mountain stage.

I'd say one should expect Menchov to podium, like 2010 where only Contador and Andy beat him. But yes, I do agree that last years winner and Wiggins (because of his one week results and strong one week team) deserve to be considered as the main candidates, which Menchov undoubtedly also would prefer.

Can't comment on the mountains, it really depends on the Sky train and if the climbers will gang up on it. I hope for fun in the mountains but fear they'll just go for dots.

 

[Azabael]

Him screaming after he won the Giro, made you surprised when he left the team 2 years later? I don't get it?

Geox probably just offered more money. And of course in 2010 it seemed like Rabo had an up and coming man with Gesink who might become better than Menchov.

Haha, talk about misinterpretation. It referring to him leaving the team, while he won the Giro, Vuelta en podium of the Tour with them. So despite the succes he had with them, illustrated nicely on that image, he still left.

 

[theyoungest]

Haha, talk about misinterpretation. It referring to him leaving the team, while he won the Giro, Vuelta en podium of the Tour with them. So despite the succes he had with them, illustrated nicely on that image, he still left.

I don't think they were overly eager to keep him, because like I said, it seemed like Gesink could be a good replacement. I think Geox offered him about twice as much as he made at Rabo, the choice won't have been very hard.

 

[Azabael]

I don't think they were overly eager to keep him, because like I said, it seemed like Gesink could be a good replacement. I think Geox offered him about twice as much as he made at Rabo, the choice won't have been very hard.

That's how it can turn out to be. An easy choice to make, an easy loss to calculate. And by that I point at his disappointing adventure with Geox.

 

[OctaBech]

I agree on seeing Wiggins as a bigger favourite. One word, that might need some backup, says enough. Inconsistency. You never know with Menchov when he's really going to do well, not until the very moment itself. Wiggins on the other hand, has shown this year he's the master of peaking and not just once a year. Add that to the fact that his peaks have throughout the entire season proven to be high enough to take on anyway that challenged him, and I think we have a completed arguement as long as people are not blind for facts.

If he actually wins, is another issue.

I just want to point out that consistency in it self mean nothing or else we'd always have to treat Andy Schleck like a surprise when TdF hits.

But yes, Wiggins deserves to be admired for the consistency he has shown this year, it's a guy with a clear aim.

 

[theyoungest]

Also, Wiggins supposedly hasn't peaked yet, so he's yet to prove he's the master of peaking.

 

[afpm90]

Menchov hardly ever makes himself available to the media. He may be big news in Russia but he does not self promote or even promote his team. No doubts about his quality as a rider but it's been quite a while since he showed it unlike Wiggins. Menchov and probably Leipheimer are the forgotten GC riders of this year's Tour at least as far as the non specialist cycling media is concerned. Sanchez as well. In Spain, Sanchez and Valverde probably get good coverage ?

How do you know that? Maybe it's the media that doesn't remember Menchov and doesn't seek to interview him.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

I don't think they were overly eager to keep him, because like I said, it seemed like Gesink could be a good replacement. I think Geox offered him about twice as much as he made at Rabo, the choice won't have been very hard.

He didn't make quite that much at Geox... that was Sastre.

 

[Azabael]

I just want to point out that consistency in it self mean nothing or else we'd always have to treat Andy Schleck like a surprise when TdF hits.

But yes, Wiggins deserves to be admired for the consistency he has shown this year, it's a guy with a clear aim.

No, your logic is invalid. Consistency does mean something. You need to place it in perspective. Schleck is inconsistent when you look at an entire year, but he always peaks in the Tour. Therefore, as we are talking about the tour, you can say his Tour performance when competing is consistent. When we compare Menchov's tour participations, they show inconsistency.

Like everything around us, it's relative. But to the extent we set our borders, namely the Tour, things are comparable which thus allows us to call for consistency and inconsistency.

 

[Angliru]

I don't get it. If we look at resumes we can clearly see that Menchov has done more than Wiggins up to date. Not to take away anything from Wiggins because he is an amazing talent, but the media doesn't seem to even acknowledge Menchov at all. All I here is Wiggins this, and Cadel that. What about the people's champion aka the Silent Assassin. Denis Menchov is arguably one of the greatest riders professional cycling has ever seen, and if he wins this year he could go down as the best cyclist of all time.

Why should anyone take you even half seriously when you muck your initial post with drivel like the bolded above statements?

I'm an admirer of Menchov and agree he's getting the short end of the attention/respect stick when it comes to talking about this year's Tour contenders. It's likely because he didn't have the best of seasons last year and this year has been his usual one of riding under the radar. I think he'll show himself to be a true threat.

 

[The Hitch]

First of all, lol at how many people fell for the goat line.

Second of all. Those who say menchov has no charisma have seen his reaction after winning the giro ? And have you seen his reaction to cobo winning the vuelta ? There is a whole character to The Pope that we don't really get to see because even after podiuming the tour he is not seen as worthy.of getting invited back the next year.

 

[The Hitch]

Why should anyone take you even half seriously when you muck your initial post with drivel like the bolded above statements?
.

Why should anyone take him seriously when his previous postings argue violently that lance ( and.menchov and the schleck bros ) are the beacons of clean cycling but contador should be given a life ban.

 

[cineteq]

Oh look, another Wiggins bashing thread.
Jeez, this place is getting very repetitive and tiresome.

Where? If that was true I'd be all over the thread.

Nah wiggo has as much charisma as menchov has.
GC riders like alberto, andy, nibali and maybe even evans have more charisma.

Exactly. In other words, they both have zero charisma.

Is this thread serious? Wow.. Check the results for Wiggins in the past year and then check the results of Menchov and then come back... By your logic, why aren't you making a thread of why is Basso considered as a less favourite than Evans?

That's my answer too, thanks LaFleur. What have you done lately should also easily answer the thread's question.

 

[OctaBech]

No, your logic is invalid. Consistency does mean something. You need to place it in perspective. Schleck is inconsistent when you look at an entire year, but he always peaks in the Tour. Therefore, as we are talking about the tour, you can say his Tour performance when competing is consistent. When we compare Menchov's tour participations, they show inconsistency.

Like everything around us, it's relative. But to the extent we set our borders, namely the Tour, things are comparable which thus allows us to call for consistency and inconsistency.

Don't call my logic invalid when you make the ugly mistake of ignoring that Menchov has not always focused on TdF and as I pointed out sometimes get caught in the peloton. By your own logic we should also write off Wiggins as he has not been consistent in TdF at all. Your logic is self conflicting.

My point is that we should base our speculations on what the riders are capable of when they are at their best shape and compare it to how far they are from this shape.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So, the logic in the OP is, that were Eddy Merckx still to ride, he would smoke the entire peloton due to a more impressive resumé...

 

[Azabael]

Don't call my logic invalid when you make the ugly mistake of ignoring that Menchov has not always focused on TdF and as I pointed out sometimes get caught in the peloton. By your own logic we should also write off Wiggins as he has not been consistent in TdF at all. Your logic is self conflicting.

My point is that we should base our speculations on what the riders are capable of when they are at their best shape and compare it to how far they are from this shape.

2005, 2007 and arguably 2009. Failed focus on the Tour. I know he won the Giro in 2009, but peak wise he rode the giro in preparation of the tour like in '08 where he rode top5 in both.

The thing you however seem to overlook is that the Wiggins of 2012 isn't the same as before, as mentioned in one of my earlier posts concerning his sublime peaking abilities. If you apply the same logic as we did to Menchov and Schleck, then yes he indeed had a few inconsistent tours. But like I not only mentioned in this post, everything is relative and you need to place it in perspective. Our choice here is to prioritize known facts from the past and decide which give the best indication on how they will perform in the race we are currently watching. And because every rider is different, peakwise, different rules can apply to different riders. Menchov and Schleck are riders who can have one or two goals in the season, where as Wiggins can have many due to a constant high basic level.

So to simply say we should base our speculations on what riders are capable of in their top form is ridiculous. That's the same as judging a murderer on who he can be when he's on his best thus not killing anyone. You need to look at what type of rider one is and then take all influental parts on his top form into account.

 

[Fetisoff]

I think it's all because of Wigan's awesome sideburns

 

[Angliru]

It made me even more surprised when he left the team.
If only we knew actual reasons behind certain actions.

I can only guess that he saw the writing on the wall and didn't want another situation like he had with Rassmussen, in terms of a shared team leadership at the Tour. Gesink was the rising star and the team's hope for a rider from the sponsor's country to represent them in the grand tours primarily the Tour.
I can't be certain about why he chose Geox unless he mistakenly saw the potential for a fairly longer term commitment from them. He knew Sastre was on the downward slope of his career and Menchov had just reached the highest level of performance in his career at the Tour.

 

[python]

It made me even more surprised when he left the team.
If only we knew actual reasons behind certain actions.

they are well known, both sides did not make a big secret of it - bobby is the reason and i have zero problems with that

that said, theyoungest is absolutely correct, the anglocentric media has little interest in a rider who is more than shying their attention... he actually actively avoids them and only speaks when cornered, even then mostly to spanish or italian blogs. there are several reasons for that... one, he is a classic introvert. two, that's his way of getting mentally ready and getting confidence - some people just dont feel comfortable in the bright light

for all i know, he doesn't have any social media accounts. never heard of his tweeter, facebook etc. even his personal web page can hardly be found. in todays day and age, not self-promoting is odd for a western mind but that's how this rider is.

one thing i am sure, he seems a bit smarter than wiggo when it comes to talking too much though i never disliked wiggo.

 

[theyoungest]

Some people in this thread argue that Menchov's good results date from the Stone Age, and hence count for nothing anymore. May I remind you that he was on the Tour podium just two years ago? And last year he didn't participate.

On the same grounds you're dismissing Menchov, you might as well dismiss Jurgen VDB.

 

[richtea]

Jurgen VDB gets even less trash talk than Menchov.

 

[K-0tic]

A) Menchov is coming of a bad year and has not shown himself during this season.
B) Menchov is Russian, which means he naturally does not attract many "Western" cycling fans who hang around here.
C) Menchov is shy and rarely shows emotion, even in press reports.
D) Menchov is not a rider who is explosive nor very attacking

I think this combination tells the story.