Why I quit

[ChewbaccaD]

Yeah, I think it's CN's job to make sure people don't run with scissors in hand . I can't believe that you guys are even confessing to such stupidity, much less trying to blame it on the host. As if Papp couldn't have fished for info anonymously (like the rest of you). I'm not defending him, but this is the internets, and you should have taken your mom's advice. Now deal with the consequences.

Fair enough, though I would term is gullible or showing a lack of common sense. But if calling me stupid makes you feel better about yourself, go ahead.

Edit: Evidently, I disagree with myself, as I termed it "stupidity" in the post above...some karmetic justice I guess...

 

[cprior]

Wow, thanks for the login screwup! Only reason I went to this subforum!

The whole Clinic should move to some better suited place in the internet…

 

[hrotha]

Yeah, I think it's CN's job to make sure people don't run with scissors in hand . I can't believe that you guys are even confessing to such stupidity, much less trying to blame it on the host. As if Papp couldn't have fished for info anonymously (like the rest of you). I'm not defending him, but this is the internets, and you should have taken your mom's advice. Now deal with the consequences.

Just because the people who are scammed tend to be naive old folks that doesn't mean action shouldn't be taken against scammers.

 

[rhubroma]

Well, if you don't want to ban Joe because of some Byzantine reason that escapes me, rest assured he'll be ostracized by all of us (certainly by me) from now on.

edit: of course, just because he's a **** and a weasel that doesn't mean his every move had a hidden purpose, but even if it did, the Reactions to LA thread is still a valuable one for the community.

Indeed the legal world has become a Byzantine court of technicalities, ritual, hierarchy and pas partout, but for the life of me I can't figure out why CN had seemed to fear Papp.

 

[kielbasa]

Fair enough, though I would term is gullible or showing a lack of common sense. But if calling me stupid makes you feel better about yourself, go ahead.

Edit: Evidently, I disagree with myself, as I termed it "stupidity" in the post above...some karmetic justice I guess...

I was being unwise and unnecessarily harsh in my choice of words. Should've listened to my mom.

 

[thehog]

Well, if you don't want to ban Joe because of some Byzantine reason that escapes me, rest assured he'll be ostracized by all of us (certainly by me) from now on.

edit: of course, just because he's a **** and a weasel that doesn't mean his every move had a hidden purpose, but even if it did, the Reactions to LA thread is still a valuable one for the community.

Don’t blame Joe. He’s been manipulated by Armstrong. He lives in his mother basement (literally) and was facing jail time along with the prospect of being unemployable for life. He has zero income making potential. What to do? He was preyed upon by Armstrong’s team and was easily bent. I don’t blame Joe at all. I blame Armstrong’s team for predatory tactics on the weak and vulnerable.

 

[rhubroma]

Sickening stuff from Joe Papp.

Joe Papp is the classic case of a clever charlatan, who places far too much worth in his own intelligence. Though this is usually the downfall of such egoists. Inevitably it leads to them acting imprudently.

I have, even before it came down to this, regretted having initially been lenient on him for his crimes. I guess that's just my liberal mindset. The sense I got from reading his posts beyond cycling issues increasingly portrayed a man of hypocritical and conservative worldviews, who mistakenly takes himself for an intellectual. Good riddance.

 

[Digger]

Can we get back on track here...I knew this story a while back. He is absolutely despicable. He volunteered to testify against Landis, eventhough it had nothing to do with him, when he was still dealing dopin products.
He seems to enjoy the publicity he gets, and reminds me of the saying that any publicity is good publicity. Sad thing is that Joe Papp is now a bigger name than he ever was through his cycling career alone.

How sad must your life be that finding out someone's identity for someone like lance is your goal for the week.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

I'm so much angrier after reading Daniel Benson's post than I was before.

All that stuff about people hassling the moderators doesn't belong in the conversation. Was it RR, ChewbaccaD, thirteen, L'arraviste or me behaving like that? I don't think so. It's not a reason to knowingly let a criminal who has misused the PM facility continue here. So why bring the subject up?

For me, an acceptable response would have been to say CN was restricted by RR's request in order to protect the investigation and by the legal team who said action was a no go for xyz reasons. CN wished they could have done more but unfortunately hands were tied etc.

Instead all we get is that poor CN lost good moderators, that the lack of care to forum members was somehow linked to other forum members being mean to moderators and that anyway, we should know to let mistrust and fear govern the way we interact with other people.

Well here's the thing. The forum has been at times quite carefully moderated. People who were trolling or sock puppets or outed personal details or posted under false pretenses were dealt with. So it's reasonable to think that if there was a problem with someone who was posting under his own name, was known to a number of the forum users and had been here for years, CN would have already dealt with it. Never in a million years did I think CN would sit on something like this.

I took a calculated risk emailing Joe; I didn't release any information that I couldn't cope with being made public (and I really can't imagine his employer has the faintest interest in me). Joe's actions, while disgusting, are not what has upset me most.

Ironically enough, in that unfortunate email, I mentioned some bad stuff happening to me and how angry I was that people knew and did nothing. Let's just call it a pet peeve of mine.

Dan Benson, knowing about people doing bad things, but taking no action to stop them is wrong. It's that simple. Perhaps you should have listened to the judgement of those good moderators. After all, their judgement is what made them good moderators. I didn't get the impression from your post that you understood where the problem lies.

Maybe I'm being harsh here and, as RR says, it's complicated. But I want you to know that I have been genuinely upset by this.

 

[hrotha]

Don’t blame Joe. He’s been manipulated by Armstrong. He lives in his mother basement (literally) and was facing jail time along with the prospect of being unemployable for life. He has zero income making potential. What to do? He was preyed upon by Armstrong’s team and was easily bent. I don’t blame Joe at all. I blame Armstrong’s team for predatory tactics on the weak and vulnerable.

Nope, I'm blaming Joe. Armstrong wouldn't be able to get a better man to do his bidding.

 

[the big ring]

I don't have time to contribute much on this now but this clearly is a complex issue with many elements to it. I share everyone's frustration on this but I think eventually a solution will be found.

In the mean time I do not see any value in demonizing Susan or Dan. They are stuck between many different elements here. It is not always easy to make everyone happy, including the lawyers

Take note, people. Methinks there is a bit more here than meets the eye.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Joe Papp is the classic case of a clever charlatan, who places far too much worth in his own intelligence. Though this is usually the downfall of such egoists. Inevitably it leads to them acting imprudently.

I have, even before it came down to this, regretted having initially been lenient on him for his crimes. I guess that's just my liberal mindset. The sense I got from reading his posts beyond cycling issues increasingly portrayed a man of hypocritical and conservative worldviews, who mistakenly takes himself for an intellectual. Good riddance.

Lol.
VERY nicely worded rhubroma!

and hoggie I have to disagree with you on this one...NO sympathy for joe..he made his own choices and his own bed..he simply shows no personal fortitude or courage to make tough and correct decisions.
Fail...

We all need to learn to deal with tough challenges...some folks don't do so well. Man up, Joe, although I don't think he has it in him.

 

[131313]

It has been hilarious to watch Papp remake himself as a spokesman against doping at the same time he was selling out RR to Armstrong's lawyers. Beyond cynical.

This shouldn't surprise anyone. He was selling drugs while testifying about using drugs. It seems that a lot of people fell into the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing with Papp. He reached out to me as well and yes, I immediately ignored him because it was pretty obvious he was still playing some game. So, in a certain sense I think "caveat emptor" or whatever...


That said, I think CN showed very poor judgement in not banning him.

 

[thehog]

That said, I think CN showed very poor judgement in not banning him.

Poor judgement by CN for not warning others who fell victim to the honeytrap.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Joe Papp is the classic case of a clever charlatan, who places far too much worth in his own intelligence. Though this is usually the downfall of such egoists. Inevitably it leads to them acting imprudently.

I have, even before it came down to this, regretted having initially been lenient on him for his crimes. I guess that's just my liberal mindset. The sense I got from reading his posts beyond cycling issues increasingly portrayed a man of hypocritical and conservative worldviews, who mistakenly takes himself for an intellectual. Good riddance.

Good post.
I too supported Joe against a lot of abuse here when he was just Joe the doper - but when it was revealed he had also been dealing my view soured.
Particularly becasue he did a one on one interview with our own Alpe d'Huez just before it became public that the Feds had come a knockin' and he did not reveal it then.

On CN and their role.
Well - I too had contact from Joe, but looking back I signed off using 3 different names and had two addresses and only emailed from a Drmaserati email account I had set up - not sure why I was suspicious but I obviously was.

I think CN had no idea of the scale of what may have happened - however they could have given a general warning or addressed the issue earlier.

 

[blutto]

Indeed the legal world has become a Byzantine court of technicalities, ritual, hierarchy and pas partout, but for the life of me I can't figure out why CN had seemed to fear Papp.

....yeah, my spidey sense is also very tingly over this ( people have been banned for a lot less and rumour has it our dear weasely friend is still around, as in not summarily tossed over-board )...

...and maybe fear could be the answer because what little has been offered as a reasonable rationale up to this point doesn't completely pass the smell test...but fear of what, or who?....

...or maybe it just is complicated?....but the facts on the table now don't really scream complicated....

Cheers

blutto

 

[Maxiton]

So let's say you're reading this and you're a scammer of some kind. Maybe you want to sell people's info to whomever, for whatever nefarious purpose. A forum like this one, where people talk amongst each other for years, and become comfortable with those they don't even know, could be perfect. And now you realize, reading this, that even if site management gets wind of what you're up to, they'll do nothing. Presumably you don't even have to cut them in on the action. What could be better?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Just because the people who are scammed tend to be naive old folks that doesn't mean action shouldn't be taken against scammers.

Awesome!!! I used to be a punk rocker in the 80's and now I've progressed to being a naive old folk...darnit! All those walks to school uphill both ways in the snow didn't cease the aging process! I should have worked harder at doing what the Who said, and die before I got old...

 

[ChewbaccaD]

This shouldn't surprise anyone. He was selling drugs while testifying about using drugs. It seems that a lot of people fell into the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing with Papp. He reached out to me as well and yes, I immediately ignored him because it was pretty obvious he was still playing some game. So, in a certain sense I think "caveat emptor" or whatever...


That said, I think CN showed very poor judgement in not banning him.

Another fair point.

 

[hrotha]

Awesome!!! I used to be a punk rocker in the 80's and now I've progressed to being a naive old folk...darnit! All those walks to school uphill both ways in the snow didn't cease the aging process! I should have worked harder at doing what the Who said, and die before I got old...

Haha, I wasn't talking about RR and you in that post - Joe had me fooled too, after all.

I was thinking of all the old people who get ripped off by internet scams because they don't know better, and of all the naive, greedy folks who fall for those Nigerian inheritance scams. My point was that saying "oooh, should've known better, suckers" is not a good way to approach this, and that the scammer has to be punished regardless.

 

[BroDeal]

I dont know why there was not a sticky made, which would have alerted posters. I also dont know why those posters who posted daily in the clinic were not told by pm.

Truth be told RR has some blame here. He told me. Some mods told me. But RR wanted everything kept quiet, so I warned a few people but not many. I thought most people knew because at the time I was ignoring lots of threads because of Polish's incessant trolling and I assumed that somewhere in that morass it had been discussed.

 

[BroDeal]

Don’t blame Joe. He’s been manipulated by Armstrong. He lives in his mother basement (literally) and was facing jail time along with the prospect of being unemployable for life. He has zero income making potential. What to do? He was preyed upon by Armstrong’s team and was easily bent. I don’t blame Joe at all. I blame Armstrong’s team for predatory tactics on the weak and vulnerable.

LOL. I am sure Papp's job prospects will be improved by being known not just as a ex-doper, not just as a convicted dope dealer, but also as a phony anti-doping advocate who sold out the friends he had made after supposedly turning over a new leaf.

 

[MarkvW]

LOL. I am sure Papp's job prospects will be improved by being known not just as a ex-doper, not just as a convicted dope dealer, but also as a phony anti-doping advocate who sold out the friends he had made after supposedly turning over a new leaf.

Is he really still living in Mommy's basement?

 

[JRTinMA]

Anyone who ever raced against or knew Joe would have told you he was a ******. As 13131313 said, the enemy of my enemy... He was liked here because he played right into your hands. Told you what you wanted to hear.

RR knew not to trust him, he even said so. He made a mistake and replied from the wrong email. A fault totally his own and not any fault of CN. I suspect its why his response has been so reasoned.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

And finally, he speaks via Twitter:

Joe Papp ‏@joepabike
Please stop

...