Why LA is not a doper (seriously)

[pedaling squares]

Very vague isn't it. I don't think he would tell Floyd Landis about doping to be honest. That's not how it works.

Hi all. I just want to give credit where its due. This is the quote du jour. Very vague. "Lance doped." Damn, that's vague! "Just so you know, Lance doped." No need for the details about whether it was the Professor, the library, or the candlestick. "Lance doped" is plenty concrete coming from a teammate in Floyd's position.

 

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"Next year when you get busted, I want you to remember saying that to me Alberto"
Lance Armstrong

Impossible! He would have said Pistolero.

 

[UTFan2]

Lance is a legendary a-s-s. He won seven TdFs and came 3rd as a 37 yo - wonderful achievements, but this doesn't make him a legend. As many have said, the doping itself is not the only issue. All of his main rivals doped as well, but they were eventually exposed through Operation Puerto and he has not been. This makes his achievements even more fraudulent. He is not a legend in many of our eyes because he does not behave like a champion. He supports the Omerta by chasing down Simeoni and admonishing Bassons, his control of the media is ridiculous, his twittering and public criticism of team mates (or any other cyclist) is immature, his conspiracy theories (the French are out to get me) are bizarre, and his PR efforts (I'm the most tested athlete in the world, etc) are laughable. So no, he is not a legend.

Thing is ........ as much as you might hate it, Lance IS a legend. Most of the main stream population doesn't get into this nitty-gritty cycling/doping cr@p like we do, so all that most people know is that he almost died from cancer that robbed him of a testicle and attacked his brain, he beat all odds just to LIVE, he recovered and went on to win the TDF 7 times. More times than any other rider, and has now come back to nab a podium spot. That is what 95+% of the people know now and that is all they will ever know. The PR efforts and twittiering that you call laughable are what what people know and believe...so maybe your lack of understanding of how that works is what is actually laughable. You may be RIGHT, but your perception of what other think or should think is wrong.

You thinking he is an a$$ doesn't make a dang bit of difference.

 

[elapid]

Thing is ........ as much as you might hate it, Lance IS a legend. Most of the main stream population doesn't get into this nitty-gritty cycling/doping cr@p like we do, so all that most people know is that he almost died from cancer that robbed him of a testicle and attacked his brain, he beat all odds just to LIVE, he recovered and went on to win the TDF 7 times. More times than any other rider, and has now come back to nab a podium spot. That is what 95+% of the people know now and that is all they will ever know. The PR efforts and twittiering that you call laughable are what what people know and believe...so maybe your lack of understanding of how that works is what is actually laughable. You may be RIGHT, but your perception of what other think or should think is wrong.

You thinking he is an a$$ doesn't make a dang bit of difference.

But that's the thing - I am not one of the general population who are so gullible and/or ignorant to believe anything Lance (or anyone for that matter) tell them through twittering or CNN sound bites. Nor are many other posters on this forum: just read the comments in this thread and you'll see if most think he is a legend or not. Because the general population thinks he is a legend doesn't mean I should think he is a legend, and nor does it make him a legend. And I never said that anyone (or everyone) should think the same way I do, so don't put those words into my mouth.

Just so you know, after reading "It's Not About The Bike" I was also very impressed and inspired. His TdF victories were equally as impressive, as was his podium finish after his retirement, broken collarbone, and at 37 years of ago. His efforts in raising awareness of cancer are also admirable. Personally, I don't think he would be such a polarizing figure and he would in fact be a legend if he left at this. However, his actions off the bike and occasionally on the bike have IMO permanently and irretrievably tarnished his image and legendary status.

And just so you know, what you think of my opinion doesn't make a dang bit of difference to me. What is laughable is that you think he is a legend because the general populace, who have swallowed the Lance PR machine hook, line and sinker, think he is a legend. I am sure you feel comfortable that you have the same opinion as the general population, as I feel equally saddened that you cannot think for yourself.

 

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However, his actions off the bike and occasionally on the bike have IMO permanently and irretrievably tarnished his image and legendary status.

All of these bicycling legends are infallible. You can find personal fault in nearly every single one of them. They don't have to live their lives as Jesus to earn people's respect.

 

[ProTour]

Originally Posted by ProTour:
Bottom line: What part of "never failed a drug test" do you not understand?

I guess the part about steroids and synthetic EPO in his 1999 TDF samples.

You mean the unofficial samples. If there were any credible legitimacy to them, the UCI and WADA would have investigated and busted him for it. Did not happen. Why not? Despite all the conspiracy theories by the French, the quintessential reason is that the so-called "samples" were not legitimate.

 

[ProTour]

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden
You say you are open to opposing views.

And in relation to your first point...Did it ever occur to you that he was doping BOTH then and now?

I read the whole piece, Ashendon seems confused, unqualified, and illegitimate, as many readers noted in the comments after the interview. First he implies everyone doped, because there was no test in the 99 tour, then he dwells on the supposed fact that only 8% of the riders supposedly tested positive for EPO. He has no legitimacy, which is why you never hear about him in any legitimate cycling sources. Probably just another vengeful Aussie ****ed that Lance kicked Cadel Evans *** so badly time after time.

If Lance was doping now, he would have tested positive, as others already have this year. Bottom line: Lance hasn't. Has that occurred to you yet?

 

[LaBici]

How about Lance getting US Postal/Discovery exclusive access to Dr. Ferrari?

wow! first i have heard of this... very interesting

 

[BroDeal]

You mean the unofficial samples. If there were any credible legitimacy to them, the UCI and WADA would have investigated and busted him for it. Did not happen. Why not? Despite all the conspiracy theories by the French, the quintessential reason is that the so-called "samples" were not legitimate.

This has got to be the most incredibly weak argument ever. Gotta love how many of the Lance-o-philes have changed their tune from "never tested positive" to this lame "never successfully prosecuted." Gosh, O.J. never went to prison for murder, so I guess he did not slash two people to death.

The facts are clear. Six of Armstrong's urine samples contained artificial EPO. He doped. That he got off on a technicality and the UCI's unwillingness to pursue the matter says nothing about the facts that he clearly used EPO. Armstrong has been given the opportunity to have the 1999 samples retested. He refused. That says everything right there.

The test results from 1999 show that he may have been using more EPO than anyone else in the race. While other riders cut back (as evidenced by the greatly reduced number of positives between 1998 and 1999) because they were afraid of police searches, Armstrong injected EPO before the prologue and twice during the race.

 

[ProTour]

Winning 7 TdFs is an amazing feat. But he doesn't get my respect because of his riding abilities and talent. He earns my disrespect for:
- Supporting the Omerta by chasing Simeoni, shouting at Bassons, etc

He didn't chase Simeoni, he simply sat on his wheel. He shouted at another rider? Well then by all means he deserves no respect. That's ridiculous. Ever raced in a bike race yourself? Ever? Or just watch on TV? Seriously. That's what makes you disrespect someone? Or are you just nitpicking here?

- Manipulating the media so only pro-Lance journalists were allowed to interview him

Umm, you mean like nearly every other significant athlete in the world does? Tiger, Micheal Jordan, Kobe, etc... Yeah, they manipulate the media, so they deserve no respect. Again, get serious. You seem unaware of the realities of today's world. This ain't Mayberry.

- Doping in the 1999 TdF and making a mockery of the post-Festina Tour of Redemption

Making a mockery of it by not testing positive for anything, and for providing the story of the year in the sports world, if not the entire world? Yeah, whatever. If he had officially tested positive you could rightly say he doped, but he didn't, did he?

- Immature open criticism and twitters during the 2009 TdF

You've really gone off the deep in here with your anti-Lance obsession. This gives you a reason to not respect an athlete? Admit it, you're just jealous cause everyone ignores your whining at work, and nobody cares about you Twitter posts.

- For not acting like a champion

Pffffffffffft!!!!! This is the most subjective, ridiculous, hilariously empty criticism of Lance I've ever heard, congratulations.

I will make a bold step and presume you are American. No disrespect, but cycling was well established in many countries other than the USA prior to Lance.

I'll make a bold step and presume you are some anti-Lance Euro dude who comes from a country that has never had a 7-time winner of the Tour de France. Am I close? Cycling was obviously well established before Lance, but Lance blew it up and took it to a whole new level most cyclists would have never even dreamed about, and not just in America. I think that is where alot of the anti-Lance sentiment comes from, cyclists who miss the good ole days when there sport wasn't what it is now.

Look at the thread in the Racing Forum on the top 10 cyclists from each nation. The European countries have an extremely rich and long history in cycling, Australia goes back to the 1890s, and Americans only started on the scene in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

You've apparently never heard of Major Taylor. America has a rich and long cycling history, despite your worst attempts to minimize it.

So Lance has done a lot for the growth of cycling, but only in North America.

Bullcrap. The salaries wouldn't be close to what they are now without Lance. Same with the viewership, the fan count at the races, and the bike sales. And not just in North America, the whole world. Don't be afraid to give credit where credit is due. Many in the cycling industry simply wouldn't have jobs today, if not for the Lanceypants phenomenon.

1. Cortisone - failed. Claimed a TUE in retrospect.

Legitimacy of your claim - failed.

2. hCG is a marker for testicular cancer. The normal levels in an adult male are < 0.5. Lance's level at the time of his diagnosis was 109,000. He was tested multiple times by the UCI in the months leading up to his diagnosis and his hCG levels would have been markedly increased in all of these tests. So why didn't he fail this test? Masking agents or coverups? Regardless, direct proof that "I've never failed a test" is just a completely BS argument.

Because he never failed a test? You can't get past this one, can you? Despite the FACT that he never failed a test.

Then there are the likes of Kohl who admits he should have tested positive more than 100 times but never did; Schumacher, Kohl and Rebellin who were not caught by the biological passport system; Dwayne Chamberlain in his autobiography stating how he beat the doping controls; the fact that cyclists like Ullrich and Basso have never tested positive (even Valverde for that matter) but all have been caught by being exposed in affairs like Operation Puerto; and finally that no one, even Lance, will test positive to HGH or autologous blood transfusions because there are no effective tests for these forms of doping yet.

None of that says anything about Lance ever doping. Was Lance involved in Operation Puerto? Didn't think so.

Most of us have formed an opinion based on reading and listening to all the available information and critically processing this information. Then there are people like you and Gree who cannot argue the facts and preponderance of evidence intelligently because you cannot think for yourselves or critically and persist in believing Lance didn't dope because he never tested positive.

I never said he didn't dope, the fact is I don't know. But he never failed a test, that is the main FACT I rely on. Can you intelligently comprehend this? Or does your apparent anti-Lance, anti-America attitude somehow cloud your already foggy vision?

You are living in your CNN world of sound bites, accepting everything you are told, and you're welcome to it. Enjoy bathing in your blissful ignorance.

I'm posting and communicating on CyclingNews.com, and you claim I'm living in a CNN world. Whatever. I don't watch cable news, I don't even have TV reception anymore since they changed the system over. But hey, your insults made it sound like I'm just average Joe Blow, and you're all "alternative", so you're cool, right?

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Eventually more of the truth about Lance has to come out. too many people know too much for it to ever be truly kept secret. If Lance ever goes into politics the big money interests will be able to uncover dirt and pay people to talk etc.

But hell, we've seen with the "Birthers" that in Idiot America a "lunatic fringe" idea can quickly become mainstream if enough idiots want to believe it, and if there are slick PR machines pushing ideas in the media.

Like other controversies such as evolution vs creationism, was Saddam behind 9/11 the following rule seems to emerge:

Something is "fact" if enough people believe it.

How "true" something is depends on how strongly people believe it.

The Lance legend is not really any different.

In the same way that a christian can argue "the bible says so" in a debate on evolution, a Lance admirer can say "it's all a French conspiracy" or "never tested positive" etc etc.

It gets pointless.

 

[rhubroma]

He didn't chase Simeoni, he simply sat on his wheel. He shouted at another rider? Well then by all means he deserves no respect. That's ridiculous. Ever raced in a bike race yourself? Ever? Or just watch on TV? Seriously. That's what makes you disrespect someone? Or are you just nitpicking here?

Sir you're living in a world of pure fantasy. You know nothing about bike racing and even have the gall to take us all for pure idiots. It's people like you who give America a bad name.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

He didn't chase Simeoni, he simply sat on his wheel. He shouted at another rider? Well then by all means he deserves no respect. That's ridiculous. Ever raced in a bike race yourself?

I have raced in many bike races (semi pro in Euro for 3 yrs)

Lance didn't just sit on his wheel - he sprinted after him, the yellow jersey bridging to a break on the last day of a tour he had already won, and then threatened Simeoni. After the Italian returned tio the peloton several members of USPS insulted him and one rider spat at him. Lance then made the "zipping the lips" gesture which for muppets like yourself probably means "I shut him up" but for everyone involved cycling meant "noone gets away with telling the truth about doping whilst I'm in charge".

Umm, you mean like nearly every other significant athlete in the world does? Tiger, Micheal Jordan, Kobe, etc... Yeah, they manipulate the media, so they deserve no respect. Again, get serious. You seem unaware of the realities of today's world. This ain't Mayberry.

I think using your influence to have journalists who do not relentlessly try to please you and paint you in a favourable light excluded from the entire tour caravan steps more into narcissism and censorship terriitory than PR.




Making a mockery of it by not testing positive for anything, and for providing the story of the year in the sports world, if not the entire world? Yeah, whatever. If he had officially tested positive you could rightly say he doped, but he didn't, did he?

You're almost half right - "the story of the year" in the sports world would destroy the sport of cycling in the public eye. Who is in charge of conducting the tests or releasing the information based on the conducting of the tests? Well, none other than the people in charge of cycling, who no doubt prefer seeing people such as you becoming fans of the sport due to lance rather than a period of public ridicule followed by years of poverty and inactivity caused by a doping scandal to end all doping scandals.










I'll make a bold step and presume you are some anti-Lance Euro dude who comes from a country that has never had a 7-time winner of the Tour de France. Am I close? Cycling was obviously well established before Lance, but Lance blew it up and took it to a whole new level most cyclists would have never even dreamed about, and not just in America. I think that is where alot of the anti-Lance sentiment comes from, cyclists who miss the good ole days when there sport wasn't what it is now.

What a load of crap. Europeans initially loved lance, and after the shameful tour in 98 were excited about a new start for cycling. This year Lance was more populat than ever here, especially in France. We even had Sarkozy (you probably don't know him but he is the president of France) telling all French people that Lance is an amazing athlete who deserves everyone's unconditional respect. I have seen more yellow bracelets than ever this year.








Because he never failed a test? You can't get past this one, can you? Despite the FACT that he never failed a test.

Neither did Ulrich, Basso, Pantani (high Hct isn't considered a +ve test) or hundreds of others who got away with it during this period. Don't forget the drug of choice. EPO, was not actually tested for in the first years of Lance's reign. Even today it is entirely possible to micro dose on epo throughout the season and not get caught. There is conclusive proof that there was epo in Lance's urine in 1999. However, when the retesting was done it was not an official test (research) and Lance got away with it on a technicality.- the sample was taken more than 5 years ago, and the rules stipulate that a rider cannot be sanctioned more than 5 years after the offence. This was the actual verdict of the study, and no amount of PR "French conspiracy", "samples were spiked"" bullcrap can change that.





None of that says anything about Lance ever doping. Was Lance involved in Operation Puerto? Didn't think so.

Lance was retired already when Puerto was in its prime. Besides Lance used Dr. Ferrari in Italy. Heard of him? Convicted of "sporting fraud" and providing athletes with doping products in an Italian court.


I never said he didn't dope, the fact is I don't know. But he never failed a test, that is the main FACT I rely on. Can you intelligently comprehend this? Or does your apparent anti-Lance, anti-America attitude somehow cloud your already foggy vision?

Having cycled at a semi-pro level in Europe I can tell you that when a cyclist says "I have never failed a test" they don't mean quite the same as "I have never doped". It is just a way of avoiding having to tell a lie every time you are asked.

Everyone riding their bike at professional level knows that Lance doped. Some respect and admire him, others despise him - but you are right: he did change the sport for ever. People like you wouldn't have been interested before.


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[runninboy]

All of these bicycling legends are infallible. You can find personal fault in nearly every single one of them. They don't have to live their lives as Jesus to earn people's respect.

Chasing down riders and intimidating them, does that earn your respect?
I cant recall the exact quotes re Bassons Simeoni et al. But i remember him saying something along the lines of Simeoni being a parasite who has a great life because of cycling & then craps all over it.
Simeoni had only mentioned that Armstrong saw Dr Ferrari
the same thing that started the whole Lance Lemond feud, Greg didn't accuse Lance he was warning him about Ferrari and then boom, Lance goes off on Greg

Another incident that has not been mentioned alot lately but is very relevant now is the Brasstown Bald stage of the tour of Georgia.
Lance sucked Floyds wheel the whole way, not going for the win, just making sure Floyd didn't win. I remember him screaming something at Floyd along the lines of "I will NEVER allow you to win" the press at the time said Lance was probably upset that Floyd had left his team.

Its pretty childish in the least, But taken with the "Just so you know Lance doped" quote by Floyd it sure looks like pure intimidation.
like intimidation of Bassons anti drug stance
and intimidation of Simeoni

This is not a flaw in personality its harrasment.
I used to like Lance I looked the other way when it was apparent he was on steriods(see the cortisone neck moniker hung on him by the peloton)
I rooted for him in his comeback, my father was going thru chemo at the same time so it was very personal. My Dad of course was a big Lance fan but he was not stupid, he said to me one day while we watched the tour " I am rooting for him but i'm sure he is dirty as hell" Later we found out he was with the EPO in the samples of 99.
I figured if my Dad going thru chemo could see the truth there was no reason for me to be an apologist for Lance. he cheated. But the worst for me actually was a friend who was on LA team. When i saw him after the Tour we were having a great time talking about his experience when i mentioned Lance, he clammed up completely and gave me a dirty look. It was just this hard intense stare that meant there would be no Lance talk of any kind.
This was one of the most easygoing guys i know. Everything is a joke with him, All i said was "must have been great being with Lance when he won"
No doping talk, no request for inside info, just a simple innocent statement and the mood turned dark. After almost a minutes silence he said" i gotta go to work now..." It was though my mention of Lance was equal to me ***** slapping this guys mother. I never made that mistake and we have never mentione the L word since.

This is a personal experience, you can choose to believe it or not. the Landis, Simeoni, Bassons incidents are well documented. People who do not cheat do not react like that. Innocent people do not have a hard time keeping their story straight because there is only one story when u tell the truth.
the cortisone and the back dated TUE point to someone telling stories
the story on the synthetic EPO in urine was the lab
in other instances his story is, the lab is infallible.
As someone else mentioned testicular cancer is not the most aggressive form of cancer. But in his case apparently it moved faster than anyone had ever seen. Except in people who abuse steriods.
He had all the physical & emotional characteristics of a steriod abuser at that time.
I am not a Lance hater, I am just disappointed. But when he gets in the way of cleaning up the sport and attempts to intimidate the people who are trying to clean up the sport then i get ticked off. I still don't hate him, but if i was on a charity ride w him, i might end up being a reeeeeeeeeaaaally bad bike handler

 

[auscyclefan94]

I read the whole piece, Ashendon seems confused, unqualified, and illegitimate, as many readers noted in the comments after the interview. First he implies everyone doped, because there was no test in the 99 tour, then he dwells on the supposed fact that only 8% of the riders supposedly tested positive for EPO. He has no legitimacy, which is why you never hear about him in any legitimate cycling sources. Probably just another vengeful Aussie ****ed that Lance kicked Cadel Evans *** so badly time after time.

If Lance was doping now, he would have tested positive, as others already have this year. Bottom line: Lance hasn't. Has that occurred to you yet?

If their were no actual positive dope tests out of the tour do you beleive everyone's clean. Of Course not. riders have methods to cheat the tests to cover up the use of the drugs. But i do believe that some riders who have had success in the tour of the past few years have that success clean.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I don't have a link but its very well known. That's why they said it was not a positive - it wasn't in the positive range.

Le Monde article has some details on the test though. For Armstrong and other riders.

 

[Digger]

I read the whole piece, Ashendon seems confused, unqualified, and illegitimate, as many readers noted in the comments after the interview. First he implies everyone doped, because there was no test in the 99 tour, then he dwells on the supposed fact that only 8% of the riders supposedly tested positive for EPO. He has no legitimacy, which is why you never hear about him in any legitimate cycling sources. Probably just another vengeful Aussie ****ed that Lance kicked Cadel Evans *** so badly time after time.

If Lance was doping now, he would have tested positive, as others already have this year. Bottom line: Lance hasn't. Has that occurred to you yet?

Unbelievable...No legitimacy? And what is yours exactly? He is a scientist who has years and years of experience in this test and testing in general. What are you? Who exactly does have legitimacy? Maybe you'd care to explain how he is wrong about EPO being present in the sample? Magic?
Can you explain how the MA is wrong from a scientific viewpoint?

 

[Digger]

His fellow rider wrote a book on the use of EPO by Roche and his team.

The Floyd quote is vague because he doesn't say anything concrete, like he told me he doped, or, I saw him dope. It sounds like a joke. Why on earth would you tell a journalist that? No wonder nobody cites this.

Okay, name that book. Because I know for a fact it does not exist.

How is this for concrete? Frankie Andreu, a former teammates, heard him admit PED usage. JV, former teammate, spoke about blood doping in the team, with Lance as the main protagonist (with Bruyneel). Floyd Landis tells a juorno, who is and was a huge Lance fan (thus had no reason to lie), that Lance doped. Lance's soigneur witnessed Lance doping. Lance's former teammate Stephen Swart was part of a conversation whereby Lance told everyone that Motorola needed to get doping.
No teammate for Roche, and you say there is more evidence against Roche....

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I think the Ashenden issue is that some contests his views on the Coyle's paper which is a completely different area than the anti-doping tests he is an expert of. Those are two different matters. His legitimacy and credentials about the EPO tests and doping is evident.

Regarding Ed Coyle's paper, while I am far from being able to provide any insight on the scientific part of it, I'll note that Ashenden is not the only one to contest some of the results, and that Coyle himself admitted to a "minor error" in the NYT. The University of Texas to which he belongs to said “there do appear to be ‘deficiencies’ in Professor Coyle’s research, and there does appear to be a need to clarify the research record.”

Scientists looking at each other's works critically is not out of the norm: it is just how science works. And as it has been evidenced, the questions raised by Ashenden and his peers actually had some merits. It does not mean he is right on all acounts or that Coyle paper is good for the bin, but depicting Ashenden as some sort of lunatic isn't gonna cut it.

EDIT: I'll also add that the fact that Coyle has not disclosed all the data from his study is really problematic. Science is all about cross-checking by peers, to get repeatable results. If the peers cannot get access to the data to verify it, we basically have to take his word, and that doesn't cut it. Coyle may be a reknowned, excellent physiologist, that's not how it works.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I read the whole piece, Ashendon seems confused, unqualified, and illegitimate, as many readers noted in the comments after the interview. First he implies everyone doped, because there was no test in the 99 tour, then he dwells on the supposed fact that only 8% of the riders supposedly tested positive for EPO. He has no legitimacy, which is why you never hear about him in any legitimate cycling sources. Probably just another vengeful Aussie ****ed that Lance kicked Cadel Evans *** so badly time after time.

If Lance was doping now, he would have tested positive, as others already have this year. Bottom line: Lance hasn't. Has that occurred to you yet?

You may be correct as I have never heard of an "Ashendon".

However if you are making your claim on Dr. Michael Ashenden than I am afraid you are very wrong in your assessment.

At no point does he imply everyone dopes.
If you read the article - not the posts - it is quite obvious.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He didn't chase Simeoni, he simply sat on his wheel. He shouted at another rider? Well then by all means he deserves no respect. That's ridiculous. Ever raced in a bike race yourself? Ever? Or just watch on TV? Seriously. That's what makes you disrespect someone? Or are you just nitpicking here?

This is from Cyclingnews on the actual day of the race.


Earlier in the day, a strange incident that will certainly go down in the annals of Tour de France history enlivened Stage 18, when Domina Vacanze rider Filippo Simeoni bridged across to the day's winning break on the first climb of the day after 32km. Suddenly, surprisingly, maillot jaune Lance Armstrong went in pursuit of Simeoni and soon both riders had bridged across to the break together.

This is what Armstrong had to say after the stage.
"I was protecting the interests of the peloton" to French TV after the stage and continued by saying, "The story of Simeoni is not a fair story...there's a long history there. All (journalists) want to write about is parts of the story. It's a long history...a guy like (Simeoni), all he wants to do is to destroy cycling...and for me, that's not correct."

 

[elapid]

All of these bicycling legends are infallible. You can find personal fault in nearly every single one of them. They don't have to live their lives as Jesus to earn people's respect.

You mean fallible, but I know what you are saying. I fully understand that we are all human, we make mistakes, we do great things. I am the first to admit that Lance has done some truly admirable and great things (read my post), but I also believe that he his actions and words off the bike and away from cancer are much worse than the good things he has done. Just my opinion.

 

[elapid]

He didn't chase Simeoni, he simply sat on his wheel. He shouted at another rider? Well then by all means he deserves no respect. That's ridiculous. Ever raced in a bike race yourself? Ever? Or just watch on TV? Seriously. That's what makes you disrespect someone? Or are you just nitpicking here?

Simeoni - wrong.
Bassons - it's not the he shouted at him, it is what he shouted and that this exemplified his support of Omerta and all things doping.
This action alone has many people on this forum disrespecting Lance.
And yes, I do race.

Umm, you mean like nearly every other significant athlete in the world does? Tiger, Micheal Jordan, Kobe, etc... Yeah, they manipulate the media, so they deserve no respect. Again, get serious. You seem unaware of the realities of today's world. This ain't Mayberry.

BS - Lance excludes reporters and media outlets that are have published criticisms of Lance. Name me any other athlete that does this. Yes, most sportspeople are media savvy, but not manipulative.

Making a mockery of it by not testing positive for anything, and for providing the story of the year in the sports world, if not the entire world? Yeah, whatever. If he had officially tested positive you could rightly say he doped, but he didn't, did he?

He did test positive for EPO in six samples from the 1999 TdF. When this was released, it did make a mockery of the Tour of Redemption. See this is the difference between you and I - I don't hate Lance and can see his good and bad sides, whereas you love Lance and cannot do this and stick to the argument that he never doped because he never tested positive.

You've really gone off the deep in here with your anti-Lance obsession. This gives you a reason to not respect an athlete? Admit it, you're just jealous cause everyone ignores your whining at work, and nobody cares about you Twitter posts.

Ha - good one. As you can see from other posts, I have opinions of Lance which are both good and bad. I am not anti-Lance, but I do think he has done enough for me to consider him not a legend. But here you go trying to convince me and others that he is. I don't whine at work and I don't twitter. I am not jealous of Lance because I am not in the same league as him as a bike rider and never was or will be. Unlike some on this forum, I don't begrudge him his financial successes either. He is highly successful and he deserves these successes. But this doesn't make him a legend in my eyes.

Pffffffffffft!!!!! This is the most subjective, ridiculous, hilariously empty criticism of Lance I've ever heard, congratulations.

Subjective - yes. As I have repeatedly stated, this is my opinion. Unlike you, I am not trying to convince anyone else of why I think he is not a legend. I am just stating my opinion. Lance is a great cyclist, but what he does on and off the bike makes him a champion. For me, he has not fulfilled that criteria.

I'll make a bold step and presume you are some anti-Lance Euro dude who comes from a country that has never had a 7-time winner of the Tour de France. Am I close? Cycling was obviously well established before Lance, but Lance blew it up and took it to a whole new level most cyclists would have never even dreamed about, and not just in America. I think that is where alot of the anti-Lance sentiment comes from, cyclists who miss the good ole days when there sport wasn't what it is now.

Not close in every respect. And you obviously don't know your cycling history. Plenty of riders have taken cycling to a higher level, and some to levels that Lance or future riders will probably never reach. Merckx, Anquetil, Indurain, Coppi etc. Not only were these great cyclists, but they won multiple GTs and Classics. Lance is a great cyclist and will go down as one of the best, if not the best, TdF rider. But he didn't raise cycling to the same level, and definitely not beyond the level of Merckx. The anti-Lance sentiment has a lot to do with the man rather than the rider. All successful riders have to be arrogant and selfish to some degree, but Lance has definitely taken this to another level and that's where the anti-Lance sentiment comes from.

You've apparently never heard of Major Taylor. America has a rich and long cycling history, despite your worst attempts to minimize it.

Once cyclist, no matter how good, does not equate to a long cycling history. And I'm not criticizing American cycling or cyclists - it's just what it is and just trying to show that you are completely wrong.

Bullcrap. The salaries wouldn't be close to what they are now without Lance. Same with the viewership, the fan count at the races, and the bike sales. And not just in North America, the whole world. Don't be afraid to give credit where credit is due. Many in the cycling industry simply wouldn't have jobs today, if not for the Lanceypants phenomenon.

What - how do you figure Lance had anything to do with increasing salaries? Do you know what the salaries are for 1st year pros? 23,000 euros. Salaries may have increased, but their still not doing well and it has nothing to do with Lance.

I definitely agree with in regards to viewership (in North America and Australia) and attendance at races. No doubt. This also goes back to the perception of the general public of Lance - this increased viewership and attendance is because of the non-cycling public being interested in Lance but remaining largely ignorant of the controversy surrounding him. And when Lance retires again, everything will go back to the 2006-2008 status where cycling fans will be the ones watching the races live and on TV. His legacy will not be long-lasting, in fact it will only be as he races.

His influence on bike sales and the bike industry is purely North American. How many Treks and Bontrager equipment do you see in Europe? But I will give credit where credit is due and say he has raised interest in cycling in North America to unprecedented levels and I think this is great. But do not give him credit where it is not due, because he definitely has not done this in Europe.

Because he never failed a test? You can't get past this one, can you? Despite the FACT that he never failed a test.

None of that says anything about Lance ever doping. Was Lance involved in Operation Puerto? Didn't think so.

I never said he didn't dope, the fact is I don't know. But he never failed a test, that is the main FACT I rely on. Can you intelligently comprehend this? Or does your apparent anti-Lance, anti-America attitude somehow cloud your already foggy vision?

The fact that he should have tested positive to hCG and didn't exemplifies why the "I've never tested positive" argument is BS. He was not doping with hCG, it was because of his testicular cancer. A few other athletes have since being diagnosed with testicular cancer after the UCI advised them of a positive test to hCG. But the point is he should have tested positive. You can dismiss all the other arguments as to why top-level and affluent cyclists have not tested positive, but you are deluding yourself by doing so because it makes a mockery of your black-and-white stance that he has not doped because he has not tested positive.

I'm posting and communicating on CyclingNews.com, and you claim I'm living in a CNN world. Whatever. I don't watch cable news, I don't even have TV reception anymore since they changed the system over. But hey, your insults made it sound like I'm just average Joe Blow, and you're all "alternative", so you're cool, right?

No - I'm not cool, not anti-Lance, not anti-American. But the whole Lance hasn't doped because he hasn't tested positive argument is just so stupid because it shows that people cannot evaluate the evidence for themselves. Look at your counter-arguments for my regarding the reasons why this argument makes no sense - they are all "he never tested positive" rather than arguing them on face value.

 

[pmcg76]

What is really funny is Arbiter is taking his cycling info from Wikipedia and even then does not actually seem capable of reading or comprehending it correctly. He thinks Paul Kimmage wrote a book in which he says he seen Stephen Roche doping, what a joke, what an absolute joke. This is what we are arguing against, people who read something on wikipedia and throw it against us as an argument. Maybe Arbiter should also look at the Lance wikipedia page and look at the allegations/doping sections, its pretty long.

The Lance fans version of the Simeoni affair is also hilarious. Thankfully I live in the real world.

 

[Cobber]

He didn't chase Simeoni, he simply sat on his wheel. He shouted at another rider? Well then by all means he deserves no respect. That's ridiculous. Ever raced in a bike race yourself? Ever? Or just watch on TV? Seriously. That's what makes you disrespect someone? Or are you just nitpicking here? blah, blah, blah, blah.....

Life must be incredibly simple living with your head in the sand. Congratulations for being the author of the most ignorant post I have read on these forums.