Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[Wallace and Gromit]

Yet just over a year ago he was the second best climber in the Tour. Wonder what changed?

He is, by his recent standards, bordering on obese at the moment. He must have put on 7kg since the Tour last year. Plus, the climbs in the ToB don't really suit him, even in top "Diesel" mode.

 

[the sceptic]

I think Cancellara and Martin will have something to say about you describing him as 'by far the best ITTer in the world'

they didnt have much to say about it last year.

 

[EnacheV]

I think Cancellara and Martin will have something to say about you describing him as 'by far the best ITTer in the world'

http://www.procyclingstats.com/race/1130151-Tour-de-France-2012-Stage-9-ITT-Arc-et-senans-Besancon

and the London ITT

Wiggins winning WC TT it's a safe bet at this point

edit add

Alex Dowsett ‏@alexdowsett 2h
Not my best today,no secret I haven't been well lately but that didn't cost me a min. Fabian & Tony had better be ready,bradley is flying!

He will simply destroy anyone, with 1min +. 50km is a long way, and it's practically straight, in ideal meteo conditions.

 

[del1962]

http://www.procyclingstats.com/race/1130151-Tour-de-France-2012-Stage-9-ITT-Arc-et-senans-Besancon

and the London ITT

Wiggins winning WC TT it's a safe bet at this point

edit add

Alex Dowsett ‏@alexdowsett 2h
Not my best today,no secret I haven't been well lately but that didn't cost me a min. Fabian & Tony had better be ready,bradley is flying!

He will simply destroy anyone, with 1min +. 50km is a long way, and it's practically straight, in ideal meteo conditions.

Lets wait for the result before we say who is better, too close to call imo.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Tony and Fabian were both injured early in 2012 that adversely affected their build-ups.

for the Olympics ITT, Fabian fell hard in the road race.

Had he raced it, Tony would have beaten Sir Brad in the Worlds IMHO.


This year is going to be one heck of a show down. Tony's in top form, and Sir Brad appears to be as well.

 

[The Hitch]

Tony and Fabian were both injured early in 2012 that adversely affected their build-ups.

for the Olympics ITT, Fabian fell hard in the road race.

Had he raced it, Tony would have beaten Sir Brad in the Worlds IMHO.


This year is going to be one heck of a show down. Tony's in top form, and Sir Brad appears to be as well.

Martin was not full strenght going into the tt last year. And he barely beat Phinney in the worlds, who himself was smashed while healthy by wiggins in the olympic tt. July 2012 wiggins would have walked it.

Dont know about 2013 Wiggins with all that extra body weight. Wiggins and Kerrison told me that having no fat is better for tts. And del1962 tells me wiggins would never lie, he has too many morals.

 

[del1962]

Martin was not full strenght going into the tt last year. And he barely beat Phinney in the worlds, who himself was smashed while healthy by wiggins in the olympic tt. July 2012 wiggins would have walked it.

Dont know about 2013 Wiggins with all that extra body weight. Wiggins and Kerrison told me that having no fat is better for tts. And del1962 tells me wiggins would never lie, he has too many morals.

You will have to show me where I said that.

Anyway you are soemone who thinks Cuddles is English, so I guess you are a tad confused.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I eagerly await the mutant performances these World Championships will deliver for us.

Will Wiggins catch air and fly off into the sunset?

 

[JimmyFingers]

http://www.procyclingstats.com/race/1130151-Tour-de-France-2012-Stage-9-ITT-Arc-et-senans-Besancon

and the London ITT

Wiggins winning WC TT it's a safe bet at this point

edit add

Alex Dowsett ‏@alexdowsett 2h
Not my best today,no secret I haven't been well lately but that didn't cost me a min. Fabian & Tony had better be ready,bradley is flying!

He will simply destroy anyone, with 1min +. 50km is a long way, and it's practically straight, in ideal meteo conditions.

Love how a 16k TT on roads local to Wiggins in a small race like the ToB gets people into a right old tizz.

 

[JimmyFingers]

they didnt have much to say about it last year.

Martin broke his wrist in the TdF, and Canc crashed badly in the Olympic RR. It's a misrepresentation to claim Wiggins was beating them on top form.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I eagerly await the mutant performances these World Championships will deliver for us.

Will Wiggins catch air and fly off into the sunset?

Another brilliant contribution to the debate

 

[sittingbison]

Another brilliant contribution to the debate

Chin up Jimmy:

...Alex Dowsett ‏@alexdowsett 2h
Not my best today,no secret I haven't been well lately but that didn't cost me a min. Fabian & Tony had better be ready, bradley is flying!...

 

[romnom]

Martin broke his wrist in the TdF, and Canc crashed badly in the Olympic RR. It's a misrepresentation to claim Wiggins was beating them on top form.

Why do you feel the need to downplay everything Wiggins does? He only seems to win when there is no competition or it's just minor race on his home roads or everyone else is injured/not in shape? Must be nice, when the people who support you feel the need to downplay everything you achieve and those who don't just assume it was all drugs anyway. I really don't get how after all the races he has won people still feel the need to pretend as if every win the guy gets is more luck and lack of competition than him actually being better.

None of it should have any relevance to the endless doping discussion anyway. He might be boring to watch, but show some respect. You don't win that much just by being lucky. And winning races doesn't make you dirty. It just draws the attention and gets people talking. Every winner has to have some luck on their side anyway. Why not give Froome the same treatment? Or Nibali? I'm fairly certain you can find plenty of things that make their wins less impressive if you really want to. No real competition in many races with people being injured or just out of shape. Sometimes the main competition has mechanical issues or is scared of the rain and cold. Or the only guy that seems to be strong enough to compete with you is in the same team. Or like Horner, you win the GT lottery with perfect route filled with mountains and only one ITT when everyone else is too tired after a long season.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Sorry but that is drivel. I'm not downplaying Wiggins' achievements, I'm countering people that are overstating them. Martin was injured, Cancellara did crash, he didn't beat them in the Olympic ITT when both were on top form. Martin is still troubled by his wrist injury and is due corrective surgery. Why sweep that under the carpet and claim he's 'by far the best ITTer' on the basis of a season when his two main rivals for that title were affected by injury? He's not wearing the rainbow hoops for the ITT either, is he, despite being 'the best'. He didn't race that because he couldn't hold his form that long, but by the logic being applied here that makes Martin better than him, right? If we're solely going by results and ignoring all other variables of form and injury.

This Worlds should be a proper selection, all three look on form, although Cancellara's focus may be on the RR.

[Edit] Alex Dowsett beat him in the Giro ITT, does that make him better than 'by far the best ITTer'?

 

[romnom]

Like I said, you can give the same treatment to just about anyone who wins a race. Martin only won the rainbow jersey because Wiggins was too tired after long season of dominating ITTs and stage races to be there. It makes little sense, and it seems to only be an issue when talking about Wiggins. If you look at the results for last year, Wiggins was by far the best TTer. He's still among the favorites to win the worlds despite a bad season and injuries. If Martin wins again, will you be arguing he was lucky not having to race with top form Wiggins?

*Guess he might even be more lucky if Cancellara's focus is on the RR.

 

[ruamruam]

He's never been a world class climber. He's a TTer that can climb a bit. It's them or climbers that can TT that generally win GTs.

Apart from Horner.

Sorry but that is drivel. I'm not downplaying Wiggins' achievements, I'm countering people that are overstating them. Martin was injured, Cancellara did crash, he didn't beat them in the Olympic ITT when both were on top form. Martin is still troubled by his wrist injury and is due corrective surgery. Why sweep that under the carpet and claim he's 'by far the best ITTer' on the basis of a season when his two main rivals for that title were affected by injury? He's not wearing the rainbow hoops for the ITT either, is he, despite being 'the best'. He didn't race that because he couldn't hold his form that long, but by the logic being applied here that makes Martin better than him, right? If we're solely going by results and ignoring all other variables of form and injury.

This Worlds should be a proper selection, all three look on form, although Cancellara's focus may be on the RR.

[Edit] Alex Dowsett beat him in the Giro ITT, does that make him better than 'by far the best ITTer'?

Earlier in this thread you said that that Wiggins was a TTer that could climb a bit. Is that not down playing his achievements? How do you then explain his climbing in the 2012 Tour where he was the 2nd best after Froome? Was the competition weak then too?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Earlier in this thread you said that that Wiggins was a TTer that could climb a bit. Is that not down playing his achievements? How do you then explain his climbing in the 2012 Tour where he was the 2nd best after Froome? Was the competition weak then too?

Context is the key. That was in response to Wiggins himself saying 'I'm not a great climber like Dan Martin and Quintana' and people here saying he was the second best climber in the world. Do you consider Wiggins a 'great climber'?

In 2009 his challenge cracked on the climbs, 2010 doesn't bear mentioning, in 2011 in the Vuelta when the climbs ramped up he started zig zagging and was bettered by Cobo and Froome, in 2012 he climbed well in the Tour but not dynamically, sheltered by the strength in depth of his team. He's certainly not capable of multiple attacks and changes of pace on climbs, and comes unstuck when the gradients creep upwards, like for example in the early stages of the Giro this year.

Great climber? Really?

 

[ruamruam]

Context is the key. That was in response to Wiggins himself saying 'I'm not a great climber like Dan Martin and Quintana' and people here saying he was the second best climber in the world. Do you consider Wiggins a 'great climber'?

In 2009 his challenge cracked on the climbs, 2010 doesn't bear mentioning, in 2011 in the Vuelta when the climbs ramped up he started zig zagging and was bettered by Cobo and Froome, in 2012 he climbed well in the Tour but not dynamically, sheltered by the strength in depth of his team. He's certainly not capable of multiple attacks and changes of pace on climbs, and comes unstuck when the gradients creep upwards, like for example in the early stages of the Giro this year.

Great climber? Really?

Yet Wiggins dropped Dan Martin and all other climbers with the exception of Froome on a regular basis during the 2012 Tour. He was the second best climber in the Tour by a long shot. You don't really want to acknowledge that fact.

As to whether I think he was a great climber? No I don't he was just better prepared than his competitors. And we all know what we mean when we talk about preparation.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Like I said, you can give the same treatment to just about anyone who wins a race. Martin only won the rainbow jersey because Wiggins was too tired after long season of dominating ITTs and stage races to be there. It makes little sense, and it seems to only be an issue when talking about Wiggins. If you look at the results for last year, Wiggins was by far the best TTer. He's still among the favorites to win the worlds despite a bad season and injuries. If Martin wins again, will you be arguing he was lucky not having to race with top form Wiggins?

*Guess he might even be more lucky if Cancellara's focus is on the RR.

Firstly I've never attributed any of Wiggins achievements to luck, so stop with the strawman. It's a question of spin, you're spinning it one way while at the same time criticising me for spinning it another way. Looking at 2012 relative palmares of Martin and Wiggins in the ITT you can argue certainly that Wiggins was more successful, but saying 'by far the best' is a simple overstatement of fact. Martin had a very good 2012 which would have been better without a wrist injury. Cancellara also beat by far the best ITTer in the TdF prologue.

So not downplaying anything, just applying reason.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Yet Wiggins dropped Dan Martin and all other climbers with the exception of Froome on a regular basis during the 2012 Tour. He was the second best climber in the Tour by a long shot. You don't really want to acknowledge that fact.

As to whether I think he was a great climber? No I don't he was just better prepared than his competitors. And we all know what we mean when we talk about preparation.

So presumably the TdF 2012 was the only time he prepared that way, right?

 

[ruamruam]

So presumably the TdF 2012 was the only time he prepared that way, right?

Looks like it.

Was he the second best climber in the 2012 Tour?

 

[romnom]

Firstly I've never attributed any of Wiggins achievements to luck, so stop with the strawman. It's a question of spin, you're spinning it one way while at the same time criticising me for spinning it another way. Looking at 2012 relative palmares of Martin and Wiggins in the ITT you can argue certainly that Wiggins was more successful, but saying 'by far the best' is a simple overstatement of fact. Martin had a very good 2012 which would have been better without a wrist injury. Cancellara also beat by far the best ITTer in the TdF prologue.

So not downplaying anything, just applying reason.

Well if you don't get it from the context, I'm not actually attributing any wins of anyone to luck. Neither do I think you do. Just seems like every possible favorable thing is more important when it comes to races Wiggins won. At least you understood the point about spinning. To some extent. You for whatever reason feel the need to spin things when it comes to Wiggins. I don't. Neither do feel the need to spin things for others either. Those who win, deserve to win. Those who dominate TTing/climbing deserve to be called great TTers/climbers. Nothing wrong with that and it isn't all that relevant to the doping discussion. Other than the added attention success brings.

Maybe I'm wrong, and you apply the same reason to every winner out there and I'm wrong to assume Wiggins gets a special treatment. Just looks like he does, and I don't really get why. Not sure why anyone who believes he's clean would feel the need to point out every possible detail that went his way last year. Gives the impression that somehow his results were too good and they need to be explained to seem a little less great. Anyway, enjoy the debate, I'm only encouraging you to give more credit to Wiggins. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Looks like it.

Was he the second best climber in the 2012 Tour?

Many here consider him starting doping in 2009, when really out of nowhere he managed fourth against proven dopers when riding for Garmin, perhaps advised by Lance himself. Even with 'preparation' I don't think he's a great climber, the ramps of the Vuelta and Giro certainly don't suit him. Interesting we've gone from being a great climber to just the second best climber in the 2012 TdF.

As for being second best that's difficult to quantify. He certainly won the race but not through a dominant individual climbing display, unless you can tell me different. He rides tempo up climbs, remains seated, has no real change of pace, doesn't attack, but sure I'll give you second best climber in the 2012. Where would you rank him as a climber in 2013 out of interest?

Strange that someone would only prepare for that one race though, very strange.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Well if you don't get it from the context, I'm not actually attributing any wins of anyone to luck. Neither do I think you do. Just seems like every possible favorable thing is more important when it comes to races Wiggins won. At least you understood the point about spinning. To some extent. You for whatever reason feel the need to spin things when it comes to Wiggins. I don't. Neither do feel the need to spin things for others either. Those who win, deserve to win. Those who dominate TTing/climbing deserve to be called great TTers/climbers. Nothing wrong with that and it isn't all that relevant to the doping discussion. Other than the added attention success brings.

Maybe I'm wrong, and you apply the same reason to every winner out there and I'm wrong to assume Wiggins gets a special treatment. Just looks like he does, and I don't really get why. Not sure why anyone who believes he's clean would feel the need to point out every possible detail that went his way last year. Gives the impression that somehow his results were too good and they need to be explained to seem a little less great. Anyway, enjoy the debate, I'm only encouraging you to give more credit to Wiggins. Nothing wrong with that.

If you're not attributing things to luck I would suggest you stop using the word. I think you think you make a lot of sense, but frankly its difficult to engage your logic. Perhaps because you're not employing much.

I like how you say 'maybe I'm wrong'. Yes, maybe you are.

Look this forum tends towards overstatement of facts to suit a narrative. What I've done here is point out the flaws in that overstatement. You in turn have accused me of understatement, which is fine and dandy but of course implies you agree with the overstatement because I don't see you taking issue with it. So we disagree: you think he is by far the TTer in the world and I don't, I think both cancellara and Martin are extremely good too, which is generally the point I have been trying to make. In fact that is how this started: I said 'I think Tony Martin and Cancellara would have something to say about that' in response to that assertion and have qualified that remark.

Hope that clears it up.

 

[King Boonen]

Long dragging climbs at the Tour come down to watts per kg, you can't really compare them to the Vuelta and Giro.

Wiggins won the Tour in 2012 because of a very strong team, suitable parcours and poor competition probably exacerbated by the fact that no-one wanted to attack and lose energy in case they were brought back and dropped by Sky.

Wiggins is an awesome bike rider, but put him in a situation where the gradient changes, gets big and the climb is short enough for attacks and he's going to suffer.