Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[thehog]

Well you should know then that a large part of society see drink and recreational drugs as the way to let their hair down.

Look, I'm not claiming Wiggins is clean. I have no idea, and at times I have thought he was doping (2009 TdF blood values, which looked remarkably similar to those of a certain Texan who is now being prosecuted in part due to those values). But to say "his father left when he was 2" or "he was photographed toking on a spliff" and give these as conclusive proof that he is a doper is idiotic and I thought you were better than this.

(yes I know the father leaving comment was not from you).

Now if you can uncover (eg) a payment to a gynaecologist or a story about him keeping the vampires waiting while he has a long shower, I look forward to reading them.

Yes the ordinary people who's lives a vastly different use recreational drugs as an escape from their dull lives.

But I thought BW was different? What's he escaping from?

I also thought that everyone else was just f**** khunts whom never worked for anything in their lives? and now he wants to be one of them? just for a few days.

All that shows me is he's not everything he says he is. Same as Armstrong in his Austin partying days. Many saw his drug use in te clubs. They knew what went on.

If you're lax on reacational drugs then you probably don't mind a blood transfusion either.

It also shows a man who's not concerned with being drug tested.

 

[mastersracer]

Yes the ordinary people who's lives a vastly different use recreational drugs as an escape from their dull lives.

But I thought BW was different? What's he escaping from?

I also thought that everyone else was just f**** khunts whom never worked for anything in their lives? and now he wants to be one of them? just for a few days.

All that shows me is he's not everything he says he is. Same as Armstrong in his Austin partying days. Many saw his drug use in te clubs. They knew what went on.

If you're lax on reacational drugs then you probably don't mind a blood transfusion either.

It also shows a man who's not concerned with being drug tested.

Your comments are beyond facile. Recreational drug use is not primarily a form of self-medication for depression, Dr. Freud. Nor is marijuana a gateway drug for transfusing blood. It would save you a lot of time if you simply replied to every third post with 'Wiggins makes me sad. He's bad"

By the way, if you caught the end of the Vuelta today you'd see how misleading relative performance at the Tour was. All these false indignation threads would be Berto and Saxo Bank ones...

 

[Franklin]

Your comments are beyond facile. Recreational drug use is not primarily a form of self-medication for depression, Dr. Freud. Nor is marijuana a gateway drug for transfusing blood. It would save you a lot of time if you simply replied to every third post with 'Wiggins makes me sad. He's bad"

Some would think the heartwrenching diatribe of Wiggins against drug use nd his recreational use are not exactly in balance. That same remark can be made against Wiggins former anti-doping stance and his current....

By the way, if you caught the end of the Vuelta today you'd see how misleading relative performance at the Tour was. All these false indignation threads would be Berto and Saxo Bank ones...

I'm sorry, did you read the admnistrators disclaimer about threads about Alberto Contador? I'll tel you a huge shocker. There are more threads on Contador than on Sky. A bigger shocker, Sky isn't really singled out.

But here we have you, somehow claiming that Froome beating Alberto Contador somehow supports the case for a clean Sky.

Hilarious

 

[mastersracer]

Some would think the heartwrenching diatribe of Wiggins against drug use nd his recreational use are not exactly in balance. That same remark can be made against Wiggins former anti-doping stance and his current....



I'm sorry, did you read the admnistrators disclaimer about threads about Alberto Contador? I'll tel you a huge shocker. There are more threads on Contador than on Sky. A bigger shocker, Sky isn't really singled out.

But here we have you, somehow claiming that Froome beating Alberto Contador somehow supports the case for a clean Sky.

Hilarious

I never said Sky was singled out - I said the basic premise of those threads was fallacious, since they depended on relative performance.

If you think Froome really beat Contador today you need to re-watch the stage. It was like a cat toying with a mouse..what looks dominating against one group of riders looks pedestrian against others.

 

[the big ring]

Credit to Krebs Cycle for showing me the "proper" way to calculate VO2 max.

Here's KC's data for the 2011 WC TT:

My data for the same race:

Working:
Output kj = W . t = 453 x 3436
Consumed kj = Output / efficiency = 453 x 3436 / 0.23
Aerobic portion = aerobic contribution . Consumed kj = 0.99 x 453 x 3436 / 0.23
Total VO2 = Aerobic portion / energy in 1 litre 02 = 0.99 x 453 x 3436 / 0.23 x 20900
VO2 l/min = Total VO2 / # minutes = 0.99 x 453 x 3436 / 0.23 x 20900 x 57.27
VO2 max = VO2 / %VO2max = 0.99 x 453 x 3436 / (0.23 x 20900 x 57.27 x 0.88) l/min
VO2 max = 6.36 l/min


I then changed the variables for the 2004 IP and arrived at:

VO2 max = 0.9 x 570 x 255 / (0.23 x 20900 x 4.25 x 1.1) = 5.82 l/min

Assumptions (courtesy acoggan):
IP power = 110% x VO2 max
aerobic contribution for Wiggins: 90%

Obviously I cannot explain Brad's absolute VO2 max increase from 5.82 (2004) to 6.36 (2011) l/min. Particularly considering he's partial to the odd spliff

If we increase the contribution of aerobic sources in the pursuit to 98%, we get 6.34 l/min VO2 max (2004) vs 6.36 (2011).
Another explanation could be his efficiency was only 22% (6.09 l/min) in 2004 and he increased it to 24% (6.1 l/min) in 2011.

Clearly, this champion embodies a phenomenon of both genetic natural selection and the extreme to which the human can adapt to endurance training performed for a decade or more in a person who is truly inspired.

Or...

 

[acoggan]

Or...

...you made a mistake by "doubling down" on the relative aerobic contribution.

To be more specific: a 90% aerobic contribution implies that the overall demand was ~110% (actually, 1/0.9 x 100% = 111%) of VO2max, because beyond the first ~1.5 min a pursuit is contested at ~100% of VO2max.

Correcting for that mistake, your calculations actually support the position that kreb's cycle and I have held all along, i.e., that the available data don't point to an obvious increase in Wiggins' power.

 

[acoggan]

...you made a mistake by "doubling down" on the relative aerobic contribution.

To be more specific: a 90% aerobic contribution implies that the overall demand was ~110% (actually, 1/0.9 x 100% = 111%) of VO2max, because beyond the first ~1.5 min a pursuit is contested at ~100% of VO2max.

Correcting for that mistake, your calculations actually support the position that kreb's cycle and I have held all along, i.e., that the available data don't point to an obvious increase in Wiggins' power.

...and just like that, the post of the big ring to which I was responding has disappeared!

Ah well, the point still remains: Wiggins' TT power in recent years is completely consistent with his pursuit power back in 2008.

 

[the big ring]

...and just like that, the post of the big ring to which I was responding has disappeared!

Ah well, the point still remains: Wiggins' TT power in recent years is completely consistent with his pursuit power back in 2008.

After I posted the table, it didn't make sense to me, so I deleted it. You responded too quick Just as I did here - Brad's IP was in 2004.

We don't have any power data from 2012.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Yes the ordinary people who's lives a vastly different use recreational drugs as an escape from their dull lives.

But I thought BW was different? What's he escaping from?

I also thought that everyone else was just f**** khunts whom never worked for anything in their lives? and now he wants to be one of them? just for a few days.

All that shows me is he's not everything he says he is. Same as Armstrong in his Austin partying days. Many saw his drug use in te clubs. They knew what went on.

If you're lax on reacational drugs then you probably don't mind a blood transfusion either.

It also shows a man who's not concerned with being drug tested.

This has about as much substance as the various assertions you made about Froome's performance in the Vuelta, all of which were proved wrong. For a start has it been proved it was marijuana? To me it looked like a hand-rolled cigarette.

Just to be clear, Bradley Wiggins isn't Lance Armstrong. I think we need to establish this because you seem determined to blur the lines between them.

This forum need to focus its discussions on what cyclists are doing on the road, not when they are on holiday or at an award show or doing the weekly shop: it has no bearing on whether they take PEDs and drifts into witch-hunt/defammation of character/smear campaign, which completely undermines your arguments because they lack objectivity.

 

[thehog]

This has about as much substance as the various assertions you made about Froome's performance in the Vuelta, all of which were proved wrong. For a start has it been proved it was marijuana? To me it looked like a hand-rolled cigarette.

Just to be clear, Bradley Wiggins isn't Lance Armstrong. I think we need to establish this because you seem determined to blur the lines between them.

This forum need to focus its discussions on what cyclists are doing on the road, not when they are on holiday or at an award show or doing the weekly shop: it has no bearing on whether they take PEDs and drifts into witch-hunt/defammation of character/smear campaign, which completely undermines your arguments because they lack objectivity.

Thanks Pot when you get a chance I'd like you to meet kettle.

Tyler Hamilton hiding under the kitchen table with his wife or forgetting to take off his t-patch when friends came for dinner has nothing to do with his life on the road. Right got it. Hamilton standing on a street corner in Madrid with blood dripping down his arm or his wife faxing Elfe for the next shipment of PEDs has nothing to do with being a Pro. Got it.

Its funny. Its all very funny. Because on one hand we're sold the story of missing kids holidays and your life is dedicated to one dream using marginal gains forsaking ones personal life and when we discover that Wiggo hasn't exactly joined the ministry then we should disregard that part of his life.

You can't have it both ways and now we're all running from the Lance Armstrong story as fast as we can where the man himself wrote an entire chapter his autobiography on how great he is.

There's just too many contradictions for my liking.

But its ok. You keep believing. I'm not going to burst your dream. Its all down to bread and water..... and the odd spliff!

 

[acoggan]

Brad's IP was in 2004.

2008 is when he was targeting 570 W.

 

[acoggan]

We don't have any power data from 2012.

Who is "we", kimosabe?

 

[LauraLyn]

. . . . Bradley Wiggins isn't Lance Armstrong. I think we need to establish this because you seem determined to blur the lines between them.

This forum need to focus its discussions on what cyclists are doing on the road, not when they are on holiday or at an award show or doing the weekly shop: it has no bearing on whether they take PEDs and drifts into witch-hunt/defamation of character/smear campaign, which completely undermines your arguments because they lack objectivity.

JimmyFingers, you are right. A lot of the beliefs and even statements about riders and doping lack objectivity. And a good deal of defamation and smearing takes place that is largely unfair. That is true.

But many fans, former cyclists, commentators, reporters, and even politicians (imagine that!) lack objectivity as well when it comes to talk of "witch hunts" and "smear campaigns."

The charges raised by the USADA were anything but a "witch hunt" or a "smear." They were serious and legitimate charges, that not a single one of the six has yet shown a serious response to.

Sure there is lots of innuendo out there about Wiggins, Froome and Team Sky. Is some or any of it legitimate? A reasonable person may think, yes perhaps.

Brad and Lance are indeed different people. Granted. But neither personality ever sat well with me. Both seem to have the same attitude toward questions about doping.

This is Wiggins in action on doping:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...or-those-who-doubt-racing-can-be-clean_228247

http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/videozone/MG_Tour/MG_vive_le_velo/Tour2012_dag_1/1.1374958

But his best is still this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/13/bradley-wiggins-dope-drugs

Wiggins published that in The Guardian on Friday morning, 13 July. In it he writes: "I don't care what people say, the attitude to doping in the UK is different to in Italy or France maybe, where a rider like Richard Virenque can dope, be caught, be banned, come back and be a national hero."

That afternoon at a press conference after David Millar wins the 12 stage of the TdF, Wiggins states: "David Millar is a national hero."

And there are many more of these contradictory statements and actions of Wiggins that make it difficult for a reasonable person to believe what Wiggins (of Sky Team) say about doping. It is not that we do not want to believe; it is that they simply appear unbelievable to a reasonable person.

And thehog is right: Doping doesn't happen in the race. It happens next to the race. And soon enough, the cheating and the lying pervade a person's life, as Tyler Hamilton so well testifies. So yes, whether you or I like it or not, the life of a top athlete is open to public scrutiny, on the job and off the job.

 

[the big ring]

2008 is when he was targeting 570 W.

2004 is when he did 570-580W. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/jun/04/cycling.news

He did the same time in both Olympics.

 

[JimmyFingers]

JimmyFingers, you are right. A lot of the beliefs and even statements about riders and doping lack objectivity. And a good deal of defamation and smearing takes place that is largely unfair. That is true.

But many fans, former cyclists, commentators, reporters, and even politicians (imagine that!) lack objectivity as well when it comes to talk of "witch hunts" and "smear campaigns."

The charges raised by the USADA were anything but a "witch hunt" or a "smear." They were serious and legitimate charges, that not a single one of the six has yet shown a serious response to.

Sure there is lots of innuendo out there about Wiggins, Froome and Team Sky. Is some or any of it legitimate? A reasonable person may think, yes perhaps.

Brad and Lance are indeed different people. Granted. But neither personality ever sat well with me. Both seem to have the same attitude toward questions about doping.

This is Wiggins in action on doping:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...or-those-who-doubt-racing-can-be-clean_228247

http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/videozone/MG_Tour/MG_vive_le_velo/Tour2012_dag_1/1.1374958

But his best is still this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/13/bradley-wiggins-dope-drugs

Wiggins published that in The Guardian on Friday morning, 13 July. In it he writes: "I don't care what people say, the attitude to doping in the UK is different to in Italy or France maybe, where a rider like Richard Virenque can dope, be caught, be banned, come back and be a national hero."

That afternoon at a press conference after David Millar wins the 12 stage of the TdF, Wiggins states: "David Millar is a national hero."

And there are many more of these contradictory statements and actions of Wiggins that make it difficult for a reasonable person to believe what Wiggins (of Sky Team) say about doping. It is not that we do not want to believe; it is that they simply appear unbelievable to a reasonable person.

And thehog is right: Doping doesn't happen in the race. It happens next to the race. And soon enough, the cheating and the lying pervade a person's life, as Tyler Hamilton so well testifies. So yes, whether you or I like it or not, the life of a top athlete is open to public scrutiny, on the job and off the job.

None of this is evidence, just utter speculation. What Tyler Hamilton did or said, what Lance did or said, none of it has any relevance to discussion of Bradley Wiggins. You can draw all the parallels you like but all it amounts to is opinion, and as we well know, everyone has one of those.

Quite honestly it seems to boil down to whether you like Brad or not. A good example is the smoking picture: like him and its a harmless cigarette, not good for him of course but understandable after his season, while on holiday and after a drop of wine. Don't like him and it's a spliff, and an outward sign of a far-deeper malaise, the sign of corruption, the signal that he is doping. Nonsense really.

As for public scrutiny, I think their performance on the track or road is open to scrutiny, but they should also be afforded some privacy when they're not competing, and not have paparazzi trailing them around when they are on holiday

 

[thehog]

None of this is evidence, just utter speculation. What Tyler Hamilton did or said, what Lance did or said, none of it has any relevance to discussion of Bradley Wiggins. You can draw all the parallels you like but all it amounts to is opinion, and as we well know, everyone has one of those.

Quite honestly it seems to boil down to whether you like Brad or not. A good example is the smoking picture: like him and its a harmless cigarette, not good for him of course but understandable after his season, while on holiday and after a drop of wine. Don't like him and it's a spliff, and an outward sign of a far-deeper malaise, the sign of corruption, the signal that he is doping. Nonsense really.

As for public scrutiny, I think their performance on the track or road is open to scrutiny, but they should also be afforded some privacy when they're not competing, and not have paparazzi trailing them around when they are on holiday

Not really. The correlations to Lance Armstrong were not drawn by the fans or the haters. They were drawn by Wiggins himself. He publicly stated that he wanted Sky to be USPS and dedicated chapters to the man along with the talking points of 500 tests etc. What is one to believe with that type of rhetoric?

Reminds me a young Ricco. So badly did he want to be just like his hero Pantani. The successes were the same as was the downfall.

I wonder how this story will turn out.

 

[Benotti69]

Not really. The correlations to Lance Armstrong were not drawn by the fans or the haters. They were drawn by Wiggins himself. He publicly stated that he wanted Sky to be USPS and dedicated chapters to the man along with the talking points of 500 tests etc. What is one to believe with that type of rhetoric?

Reminds me a young Ricco. So badly did he want to be just like his hero Pantani. The successes were the same as was the downfall.

I wonder how this story will turn out.

Brailsford has too often drawn comparisons to USPS and Bruyneel.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Not really. The correlations to Lance Armstrong were not drawn by the fans or the haters. They were drawn by Wiggins himself. He publicly stated that he wanted Sky to be USPS and dedicated chapters to the man along with the talking points of 500 tests etc. What is one to believe with that type of rhetoric?

Reminds me a young Ricco. So badly did he want to be just like his hero Pantani. The successes were the same as was the downfall.

I wonder how this story will turn out.

I know this all sounds brilliant in your internal monologue, but to me it sounds like 2+2=5. I wonder too how the story will be transpire, but considering your predictions for Froome in the Vuelta, I'm hedging my bets

 

[the big ring]

JimmyFingers

This thread is about cadence. Or more specifically Wiggins performance. Do you think Wiggins' cadence dropped, and do you think that would improve his power?

 

[The Hitch]

This forum need to focus its discussions on what cyclists are doing on the road, not when they are on holiday or at an award show or doing the weekly shop.

. A good example is the smoking picture: like him and its a harmless cigarette, not good for him of course but understandable after his season, while on holiday and after a drop of wine. Don't like him and it's a spliff, and an outward sign of a far-deeper malaise, the sign of corruption, the signal that he is doping. Nonsense really.

Oh ffs, quit acting as if the moronic postings of the hog, are representative of the community that believes wiggins is a doper.

The people who are actually arguing that Wiggins is a doper, and not that failed rainmaker the hog, are not looking at stupid pictures of wiggins having a smoke.

There are many morons on this forum, there are 16000 posters afterall. When tondo died there was a whole thread of them arguing that his death was actually some secret doping cell carrying out a cia like assasination.

You might find it easier to argue with them lot, but please dont act as if thats the intellectual limit of all the posters on here who you disagree with.

And its got jack **** to do with liking the guy or not. Good guys dope, bad guys dope. And some bad guys are clean. I think my favorite rider dopes. I think so, for one of the same reasons I think wiggins dopes - he passionately defends a known doper.
Lifes a *****, and if you are approaching the clinic with this preschool mentality that all your favorite riders are clean, becuase it would be nice if they were, then perhaps the likes of the hog are the type of people you should be debating with afterall.

 

[The Hitch]

Brailsford has too often drawn comparisons to USPS and Bruyneel.

Brunyeel tweeted the other day that anyone who wants to know how sky actually won the tdf should watch the sky "documentary", which i understand plays up the marginal gains theory. Its surprising i suppose to see someone like brunyeel backing sky.

 

[the big ring]

Brunyeel tweeted the other day that anyone who wants to know how sky actually won the tdf should watch the sky "documentary", which i understand plays up the marginal gains theory. Its surprising i suppose to see someone like brunyeel backing sky.

It seems to be a quid pro quo arrangement there.

 

[thehog]

I know this all sounds brilliant in your internal monologue, but to me it sounds like 2+2=5. I wonder too how the story will be transpire, but considering your predictions for Froome in the Vuelta, I'm hedging my bets

I admire your faith. Lets hope they don't let you down.

 

[Ferminal]

Brunyeel tweeted the other day that anyone who wants to know how sky actually won the tdf should watch the sky "documentary", which i understand plays up the marginal gains theory. Its surprising i suppose to see someone like brunyeel backing sky.

Mutual respect.

 

[thehog]

Mutual respect.

@nyvelocity: Translation: This spring, Motoman Philippe Maire also cycled round with Shaun Yates, current team leader of Sky.

http://twitpic.com/ard09c
--

Oh dear.