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irondan said:I'm curious as to how Sastre won the TDF clean (supposedly) when it's now clear that the peloton was doped to the gills during this time? He must be one of the greatest GT riders of the modern era to overcome those odds...![]()
samhocking said:You win Minuro. Wiggins clearly can only win when everyone else in the peloton is ill, injured or not in the race! Nibali, is in fact, the only rider in the peloton to win across multiple disciplines and only wins against fit, healthy riders all on top form.
cineteq said:I still believe Sastre was "the worst" TdF winner in recent years. IMO, it was a cadeaux from Evans. What do you think of opening a thread: Sastre vs. Wiggins, which TdF victory was more worthy? Miburo, anyone?
Red Rick said:Wiggins' win was a gifted to him before the start.
Angliru said:As per forum rules, that discussion would have to take place in the Clinic Forum.
wrinklyvet said:Prior to the World Time Trial Championship these were his principal palmares
Major wins
Grand Tours Tour de France General classification (2012)
2 individual stages (2012
Giro d'Italia 1 individual stage (2010)
(also Tour de France 2009 4thon GC, subsequently promoted to 3rd
and Vuelta a España 2011 3rd on GC)
2011
Stage races
Herald Sun Tour (2009)
Critérium du Dauphiné (2011, 2012)
Paris–Nice (2012)
Tour de Romandie (2012)
Tour of Britain (2013)
Tour of California (2014)
One-day races and Classics
National Time Trial Championships (2009, 2010, 2014)
National Road Race Championships (2011)
Medal record
Olympic Games 4 gold I silver 2 bronze (see below)
Road World Championships 2 silver
Track World Championships 6 gold 3silver 1 bronze
Commonwealth Games 4 silver
Competitor for Great Britain
Road bicycle racing
Olympic Games
Gold 2012 London Time trial
World Championships
Silver 2011 Copenhagen Time trial
Silver 2013 Florence Time trial
Track cycling
Olympic Games
Gold 2004 Athens Individual pursuit
Gold 2008 Beijing Team pursuit
Gold 2008 Beijing Individual pursuit
Silver 2004 Athens Team pursuit
Bronze 2000 Sydney Team pursuit
Bronze 2004 Athens Madison
World Championships
Gold 2003 Stuttgart Individual pursuit
Gold 2007 Palma de Mallorca Individual pursuit
Gold 2007 Palma de Mallorca Team pursuit
Gold 2008 Manchester Individual pursuit
Gold 2008 Manchester Team pursuit
Gold 2008 Manchester Madison
Silver 2000 Manchester Team pursuit
Silver 2001 Antwerp Team pursuit
Silver 2003 Stuttgart Team pursuit
Bronze 2002 Ballerup Team pursuit
Competitor for England
Track cycling
Commonwealth Games
Silver 1998 Kuala Lumpur Team pursuit
Silver 2002 Manchester Individual pursuit
Silver 2002 Manchester Team pursuit
Silver 2014 Glasgow Team pursuit
Those of you who think the road events are all will not be impressed. Anyone can see, however, how busy he was on the track, and with what success he rode. By your description of it, he had many lucky years.
What do you mean?Red Rick said:Wiggins' win was a gifted to him before the start.
What's your point really?Red Rick said:Sastre beat everyone bar Contador to win it. He even beat Froome by some margin
ray j willings said:I agree , I never doubted his track record. But he won nufinkof any note on the road until he joined Sky and Dr Leinders
Although when he joined the team where ex dopers go to retire "Garmin" he did ride a very good tactical race to get 4th in the tour behind a clean Armstrong
wrinklyvet said:I don't think the inferences in your comment belong in this thread. You can reserve them for the Clinic.
But as Robert Millar said in the Foreward to Wiggins' 2012 book, "Leaving the comfort of French teams and removing the crutches of his first home, track racing, forced him to change his ways. There have been dazzling highs but there have also been hesitations and desperate moments."
Nobody who knows a little about Wiggins pretends otherwise.
What is your real point (apart from insinuation)? Is his achievement somehow less because he never achieved such a win before? In many ways it was greater for that.
Angliru said:Isn't this exactly what someone else (was it you?) was curiously saying about Sastre?
wrinklyvet said:But despite his stage wins and his mountains classification he never won a grand tour and he has no record at all in other disciplines, like Wiggins. You aren't reading what others like Sam Hocking write. If you are, you are ignoring it. I am happy to admire Sastre, but that's not the point.
(As has been pointed out to me, this is not literally correct. he did of course win the TdF but had no previous grand tour win).
Angliru said:Does his not having a previous grand tour win lessen his importance of his eventual Tour win? I'm not fully understanding where you're coming from.
wrinklyvet said:I did say that and unfortunately it did spoil my main point, which was that Sastre has no extensive record at all in other disciplines, unlike Wiggins.
We can agree that a lack of a previous victory is not something to be held against anyone. I apologise to you for giving that clear impression.
What I could not quite understand was why, on a Wiggins thread, we had to hear all about how wonderful Sastre was. I am amazed at all the attempts to rubbish Wiggins, either directly or by various comparisons.
wrinklyvet said:I don't understand this. I answered your previous point a well as I could. I have tried to put right any confusion. I even gave an apology for it. If you still think there is a point to be answered about Wiggins, rather than Sastre, then please try me again.
Angliru said:I don't believe I was one of the posters that was "rubbishing" Wiggins. My intent was simply to stand up for Sastre when I felt that he was being done a disservice by Cineteq as being the "worst Tour winner ever", which was the implication since the post that he responded to with Sastre's photo was saying that Wiggins was the worst ever.
ray j willings said:I agree , I never doubted his track record. But he won nufinkof any note on the road until he joined Sky and Dr Leinders
Although when he joined the team where ex dopers go to retire "Garmin" he did ride a very good tactical race to get 4th in the tour behind a clean Armstrong
samhocking said:Wiggins didn't properly begin his road career until 2009 when he decided to totally quit focusing on the track for that year and focus on winning something on the road. Before that the road was simply a salary to pay the bills.
It's worth adding too, that Wiggins was condemning the dopers as early as 2006 when it was still unheard of to speak out! He said then that he believed he could never win the Tour de France the state cycling was in.
I would also say that Vaughters was the one who sat down, crunched the numbers and realised Wiggins engine has the potential to not just be a good TT rider & domestique but a GC rider too. Those numbers only started working because the peloton was cleaner by 2009. It's a simple calculation and hats off to Vaughters.
Jspear said:Take this talk to the clinic. It can't be properly discusses here.
wrinklyvet said:There's a post by ray j willings on the previous page that I think inspired this. If samhocking has been too explicit that previous post should be equally condemned. The whole problem is that there is a natural tendency to respond to this kind of thing rather than let it pass.
Carols said:Indeed! The whole problem is that people refuse to follow the rule of No Doping Talk on PRR!
irondan said:Unfortunately it's hard for rookies like me to filter my thoughts on the subject because PRR and 'that word we can't say' are one and the same...![]()
Carols said:Then stay over in the Other Place.
ray j willings said:I agree , I never doubted his track record. But he won nufinkof any note on the road until he joined Sky and Dr Leinders
Although when he joined the team where ex dopers go to retire "Garmin" he did ride a very good tactical race to get 4th in the tour behind a clean Armstrong