Wiggins Discussion thread.

[Carols]

Irondan please read the rules of PRR and take your questions to the clinic where they belong. Thanks.

 

[Angliru]

I'm curious as to how Sastre won the TDF clean (supposedly) when it's now clear that the peloton was doped to the gills during this time? He must be one of the greatest GT riders of the modern era to overcome those odds...

As per forum rules, that discussion would have to take place in the Clinic Forum.

 

[wrinklyvet]

You win Minuro. Wiggins clearly can only win when everyone else in the peloton is ill, injured or not in the race! Nibali, is in fact, the only rider in the peloton to win across multiple disciplines and only wins against fit, healthy riders all on top form.

Love it!

 

[Red Rick]

I still believe Sastre was "the worst" TdF winner in recent years. IMO, it was a cadeaux from Evans. What do you think of opening a thread: Sastre vs. Wiggins, which TdF victory was more worthy? Miburo, anyone?

Wiggins' win was a gifted to him before the start. Sastre beat everyone bar Contador to win it. He even beat Froome by some margin

 

[wrinklyvet]

Wiggins' win was a gifted to him before the start.

That being so, it's amazing he bothered to ride round.

Why are so many people so anxious to put a negative spin on Wiggins' victory?

I suspect there is an elephant in the room.

 

[Irondan]

As per forum rules, that discussion would have to take place in the Clinic Forum.

Yes, I'm still feeling my way around. I'll post my thoughts in a different thread.

 

[ray j willings]

Prior to the World Time Trial Championship these were his principal palmares

Major wins
Grand Tours Tour de France General classification (2012)
2 individual stages (2012
Giro d'Italia 1 individual stage (2010)
(also Tour de France 2009 4thon GC, subsequently promoted to 3rd
and Vuelta a España 2011 3rd on GC)
2011
Stage races
Herald Sun Tour (2009)
Critérium du Dauphiné (2011, 2012)
Paris–Nice (2012)
Tour de Romandie (2012)
Tour of Britain (2013)
Tour of California (2014)
One-day races and Classics
National Time Trial Championships (2009, 2010, 2014)
National Road Race Championships (2011)
Medal record
Olympic Games 4 gold I silver 2 bronze (see below)
Road World Championships 2 silver
Track World Championships 6 gold 3silver 1 bronze
Commonwealth Games 4 silver
Competitor for Great Britain
Road bicycle racing
Olympic Games
Gold 2012 London Time trial
World Championships
Silver 2011 Copenhagen Time trial
Silver 2013 Florence Time trial
Track cycling
Olympic Games
Gold 2004 Athens Individual pursuit
Gold 2008 Beijing Team pursuit
Gold 2008 Beijing Individual pursuit
Silver 2004 Athens Team pursuit
Bronze 2000 Sydney Team pursuit
Bronze 2004 Athens Madison
World Championships
Gold 2003 Stuttgart Individual pursuit
Gold 2007 Palma de Mallorca Individual pursuit
Gold 2007 Palma de Mallorca Team pursuit
Gold 2008 Manchester Individual pursuit
Gold 2008 Manchester Team pursuit
Gold 2008 Manchester Madison
Silver 2000 Manchester Team pursuit
Silver 2001 Antwerp Team pursuit
Silver 2003 Stuttgart Team pursuit
Bronze 2002 Ballerup Team pursuit
Competitor for England
Track cycling
Commonwealth Games
Silver 1998 Kuala Lumpur Team pursuit
Silver 2002 Manchester Individual pursuit
Silver 2002 Manchester Team pursuit
Silver 2014 Glasgow Team pursuit



Those of you who think the road events are all will not be impressed. Anyone can see, however, how busy he was on the track, and with what success he rode. By your description of it, he had many lucky years.

I agree , I never doubted his track record. But he won nufink of any note on the road until he joined Sky and Dr Leinders Although when he joined the team where ex dopers go to retire "Garmin" he did ride a very good tactical race to get 4th in the tour behind a clean Armstrong

 

[cineteq]

Wiggins' win was a gifted to him before the start.

What do you mean?

Sastre beat everyone bar Contador to win it. He even beat Froome by some margin

What's your point really?

Contador DNS, Froome was a domestique.

1 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto 0.58
84 Christopher Froome (Ken) Barloworld 2.22.33

 

[wrinklyvet]

I agree , I never doubted his track record. But he won nufink of any note on the road until he joined Sky and Dr Leinders Although when he joined the team where ex dopers go to retire "Garmin" he did ride a very good tactical race to get 4th in the tour behind a clean Armstrong

I don't think the inferences in your comment belong in this thread. You can reserve them for the Clinic.

But as Robert Millar said in the Foreward to Wiggins' 2012 book, "Leaving the comfort of French teams and removing the crutches of his first home, track racing, forced him to change his ways. There have been dazzling highs but there have also been hesitations and desperate moments."

Nobody who knows a little about Wiggins pretends otherwise.

What is your real point (apart from insinuation)? Is his achievement somehow less because he never achieved such a win before? In many ways it was greater for that.

 

[Angliru]

I don't think the inferences in your comment belong in this thread. You can reserve them for the Clinic.

But as Robert Millar said in the Foreward to Wiggins' 2012 book, "Leaving the comfort of French teams and removing the crutches of his first home, track racing, forced him to change his ways. There have been dazzling highs but there have also been hesitations and desperate moments."

Nobody who knows a little about Wiggins pretends otherwise.

What is your real point (apart from insinuation)? Is his achievement somehow less because he never achieved such a win before? In many ways it was greater for that.

Isn't this exactly what someone else (was it you?) was curiously saying about Sastre?

 

[wrinklyvet]

Isn't this exactly what someone else (was it you?) was curiously saying about Sastre?

I did say that and unfortunately it did spoil my main point, which was that Sastre has no extensive record at all in other disciplines, unlike Wiggins.

We can agree that a lack of a previous victory is not something to be held against anyone. I apologise to you for giving that clear impression.

What I could not quite understand was why, on a Wiggins thread, we had to hear all about how wonderful Sastre was. I am amazed at all the attempts to rubbish Wiggins, either directly or by various comparisons.

 

[Angliru]

But despite his stage wins and his mountains classification he never won a grand tour and he has no record at all in other disciplines, like Wiggins. You aren't reading what others like Sam Hocking write. If you are, you are ignoring it. I am happy to admire Sastre, but that's not the point.

(As has been pointed out to me, this is not literally correct. he did of course win the TdF but had no previous grand tour win).

Does his not having a previous grand tour win lessen his importance of his eventual Tour win? I'm not fully understanding where you're coming from.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Does his not having a previous grand tour win lessen his importance of his eventual Tour win? I'm not fully understanding where you're coming from.

I don't understand this. I answered your previous point a well as I could. I have tried to put right any confusion. I even gave an apology for it. If you still think there is a point to be answered about Wiggins, rather than Sastre, then please try me again.

 

[Angliru]

I did say that and unfortunately it did spoil my main point, which was that Sastre has no extensive record at all in other disciplines, unlike Wiggins.

We can agree that a lack of a previous victory is not something to be held against anyone. I apologise to you for giving that clear impression.

What I could not quite understand was why, on a Wiggins thread, we had to hear all about how wonderful Sastre was. I am amazed at all the attempts to rubbish Wiggins, either directly or by various comparisons.

I don't believe I was one of the posters that was "rubbishing" Wiggins. My intent was simply to stand up for Sastre when I felt that he was being done a disservice by Cineteq as being the "worst Tour winner ever", which was the implication since the post that he responded to with Sastre's photo was saying that Wiggins was the worst ever.

 

[Angliru]

I don't understand this. I answered your previous point a well as I could. I have tried to put right any confusion. I even gave an apology for it. If you still think there is a point to be answered about Wiggins, rather than Sastre, then please try me again.

This was posted prior to my reading your response. I hadn't refreshed my screen. My apologies.

 

[wrinklyvet]

I don't believe I was one of the posters that was "rubbishing" Wiggins. My intent was simply to stand up for Sastre when I felt that he was being done a disservice by Cineteq as being the "worst Tour winner ever", which was the implication since the post that he responded to with Sastre's photo was saying that Wiggins was the worst ever.

Thank you for both your posts. Let's call it done.

 

[samhocking]

I agree , I never doubted his track record. But he won nufink of any note on the road until he joined Sky and Dr Leinders Although when he joined the team where ex dopers go to retire "Garmin" he did ride a very good tactical race to get 4th in the tour behind a clean Armstrong

Wiggins didn't properly begin his road career until 2009 when he decided to totally quit focusing on the track for that year and focus on winning something on the road. Before that the road was simply a salary to pay the bills.

It's worth adding too, that Wiggins was condemning the dopers as early as 2006 when it was still unheard of to speak out! He said then that he believed he could never win the Tour de France the state cycling was in.

I would also say that Vaughters was the one who sat down, crunched the numbers and realised Wiggins engine has the potential to not just be a good TT rider & domestique but a GC rider too. Those numbers only started working because the peloton was cleaner by 2009. It's a simple calculation and hats off to Vaughters.

 

[Jspear]

Wiggins didn't properly begin his road career until 2009 when he decided to totally quit focusing on the track for that year and focus on winning something on the road. Before that the road was simply a salary to pay the bills.

It's worth adding too, that Wiggins was condemning the dopers as early as 2006 when it was still unheard of to speak out! He said then that he believed he could never win the Tour de France the state cycling was in.

I would also say that Vaughters was the one who sat down, crunched the numbers and realised Wiggins engine has the potential to not just be a good TT rider & domestique but a GC rider too. Those numbers only started working because the peloton was cleaner by 2009. It's a simple calculation and hats off to Vaughters.

Take this talk to the clinic. It can't be properly discusses here.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Take this talk to the clinic. It can't be properly discusses here.

There's a post by ray j willings on the previous page that I think inspired this. If samhocking has been too explicit that previous post should be equally condemned. The whole problem is that there is a natural tendency to respond to this kind of thing rather than let it pass.

 

[Carols]

There's a post by ray j willings on the previous page that I think inspired this. If samhocking has been too explicit that previous post should be equally condemned. The whole problem is that there is a natural tendency to respond to this kind of thing rather than let it pass.

Indeed! The whole problem is that people refuse to follow the rule of No Doping Talk on PRR!

Back to Wiggo. I don't follow track so only knew his road results and that he had an engine because of all the golds in pursuit. He is a flaky character with a potty mouth who obviously is very talented and has promoted cycling to a new level in the UK while not enjoying the limelight.

If he takes on PR and podiums he will regain much of the respect I lost for him during the Giro debacle.

 

[ferryman]

Hi Sam and Wrinkly,

Just a wee heads up that anything on doping (and I mean anything remotely drug related) is not welcome in this forum. The Clinic is where it's at. You will find good threads on there to continue your posting views. I hope you 'go over' and contribute

 

[Irondan]

Indeed! The whole problem is that people refuse to follow the rule of No Doping Talk on PRR!

Unfortunately it's hard for rookies like me to filter my thoughts on the subject because PRR and 'that word we can't say' are one and the same...

 

[Carols]

Unfortunately it's hard for rookies like me to filter my thoughts on the subject because PRR and 'that word we can't say' are one and the same...

Then stay over in the Other Place .

 

[Irondan]

Then stay over in the Other Place .

Thanks, but I think I like it right here.

 

[nhowson]

I agree , I never doubted his track record. But he won nufink of any note on the road until he joined Sky and Dr Leinders Although when he joined the team where ex dopers go to retire "Garmin" he did ride a very good tactical race to get 4th in the tour behind a clean Armstrong

That's an awfully "clinical" thing to post.