Wiggins Discussion thread.

[Poursuivant]

Anyone who climbs like they did yesterday deserves respect. Taking time on Rodriguez, Scarponi, Nibali etc, really surprised me. Personally I think it is great Wiggins doing so well, as I have never seen a Brit with a genuine chance of a GT win. How long will we have to wait after Wiggins retires?? Would love Wiggins to break the UK duck. He has a great chance.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

To summarise:

- I think that, given that the time gaps were eventually pretty small on La Covatilla, we will have to reserve judgement on Wiggins becoming a favourite on the spot, since there are some stages that really don't suit him later in the race, whereas that climb, whilst not ideal for him, was certainly one that many felt he'd be able to comfortably handle
- regardless of whether he can, should, will or does win the race, what Wiggins has done is twofold. One, he has proven that he doesn't have to just be a follower or hanger-on in the mountains, when he puts his mind to it he can climb with the best. And two, he has won a lot of brand new respect as a GC rider, where before he was seen as a follower, a pretender, now we have to look at him as a proper contender. A diesel, for sure. A guy who is still unproven on the really steep stuff, for sure. But a contender, and a genuine one at that.

 

[Kwibus]

Nobody cares about track but a few brits and aussies. You might as well bring up his record playing croquet. As it is Wiggins has one stage race win, and that race had a crappy route.

Dauphine a louse route? For real? 2 MTF, 1 long TT, 2 uphill finishes and 2 flat finishes.
Sounds like a nice route to me. The pure climbers weren't able to drop Wiggins on the climbs doesn't mean it's a poor route.

 

[theyoungest]

To summarise:

- I think that, given that the time gaps were eventually pretty small on La Covatilla, we will have to reserve judgement on Wiggins becoming a favourite on the spot, since there are some stages that really don't suit him later in the race, whereas that climb, whilst not ideal for him, was certainly one that many felt he'd be able to comfortably handle
- regardless of whether he can, should, will or does win the race, what Wiggins has done is twofold. One, he has proven that he doesn't have to just be a follower or hanger-on in the mountains, when he puts his mind to it he can climb with the best. And two, he has won a lot of brand new respect as a GC rider, where before he was seen as a follower, a pretender, now we have to look at him as a proper contender. A diesel, for sure. A guy who is still unproven on the really steep stuff, for sure. But a contender, and a genuine one at that.

There's as much reason to consider Wiggins a favourite for this Vuelta, as there was to consider Antón a favourite after having done a great first week last year. If anything, Wiggins has more GT chops than Antón, for having finished 4th in the Tour day France. Wiggins is a diesel, Antón is fragile and inconsistent... what's worse in a three week tour? I've seen the answer on the road.

 

[greenedge]

Nice ride by Wiggins, he is certainly gaining form/ time and setting himself up well. I wonder what his bad day might be. He just has to watch out that he does not go into the red on the hilly stages.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There's as much reason to consider Wiggins a favourite for this Vuelta, as there was to consider Antón a favourite after having done a great first week last year. If anything, Wiggins has more GT chops than Antón, for having finished 4th in the Tour day France. Wiggins is a diesel, Antón is fragile and inconsistent... what's worse in a three week tour? I've seen the answer on the road.

For God's sake don't get so defensive.

People were unconvinced about Wiggins because he had never backed that original breakthrough performance up - in 2010 he was disappointing, and the 2009 Tour route neutralised many of the high mountains, so his climbing was still something that people were unsure about. Especially on a route with Anglirú on it, since we've NEVER seen an on-form Wiggins tackle a really steep climb like that. Because the focus of the event was more on climbing and less on the ITT, people were considering Wiggins not a threat because he's comparable to Menchov, but few would consider him to be a better climber, at least not before the start of this Vuelta anyway.

Climbing was something people were not unsure about with Antón. More than his 2010 Vuelta, he'd dropped Contador in Castilla y León, gone with Contador and Valverde in the 2008 Vuelta, and won a week 3 mountain stage in 2006. Now I defended Antón primarily because people were saying he was being judged a contender ONLY on the 2010 Vuelta. That's unfair. However, I judged him not consistent enough and considered Nibali the favourite. That was born out, in disappointing fashion.

To be honest, I am still willing to consider Nibali the favourite. He has come out of some very difficult Giro stages on very steep material smelling of roses (Zoncolán, Mortirolo) and his ride to defend his jersey on Bola del Mundo last year was spectacular. Wiggins on Farrapona and Anglirú is still a bit of a crapshoot. How good is he on that kind of climb? Truth be told, I'd expect Rodríguez to own him on that climb - but Rodríguez may have blown his chances yesterday, given that we have an ITT - his nemesis - and another climb suited to Wiggins in La Manzaneda after that.

On the plus side, that means that the likes of Purito will really have to make Anglirú hard right from the bottom. Wiggins will, if yesterday is anything to go by, just pretend they're not there and ride at his own tempo not caring if anybody's sitting on his back wheel or not. I don't think Purito can beat him - but Menchov or Nibali might get in between them, and the gaps on Anglirú will definitely be bigger than those on La Covatilla.

I always thought Wiggins had a decent tilt at the GC here - but I didn't think he could win, I thought the podium at the absolute best. Now it looks more like I was wrong, and the podium is likely, and the win at absolute best.

 

[AussieGoddess]

to summarise:

- i think that, given that the time gaps were eventually pretty small on la covatilla, we will have to reserve judgement on wiggins becoming a favourite on the spot, since there are some stages that really don't suit him later in the race, whereas that climb, whilst not ideal for him, was certainly one that many felt he'd be able to comfortably handle
- regardless of whether he can, should, will or does win the race, what wiggins has done is twofold. One, he has proven that he doesn't have to just be a follower or hanger-on in the mountains, when he puts his mind to it he can climb with the best. And two, he has won a lot of brand new respect as a gc rider, where before he was seen as a follower, a pretender, now we have to look at him as a proper contender. A diesel, for sure. A guy who is still unproven on the really steep stuff, for sure. But a contender, and a genuine one at that.

+1

..........

 

[goggalor]

I'd say comparing Wiggins' ride yesterday to Andy's 60 km break is a tad over the top. All he did was put the hurt on from the front for the last few kilometers. And he was only finishing the job, really, after Froome had put many of his rivals in trouble. It was impressive, and Wiggins showed a new side of himself, but it was nothing extraordinary.

 

[theyoungest]

For God's sake don't get so defensive.

This is what we call projection.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

This is what we call projection.

The thing is, I felt like you were snapping at me for being too critical; I felt I wasn't being critical but cautious.

I know a lot of people take "diesel" as an insult for a GC man, with images of Leipheimer in their head, but some diesels are pure climbers (Ivan Basso, for example, and to a lesser extent Carlos Sastre). Wiggins never tried to chase down the attacks, and the only wheel he sucked was Froome's, which he has every right to do since it's his domestique. He rode that climb like there was nobody else there, and if there was, he didn't care. That's probably the best way for him to climb.

The main thing was, I was very impressed with him yesterday, and didn't think he had it in him. But the time gaps were still small, and he's still unproven on really steep stuff, so I'm not going to start anointing him just yet. In lieu of any representative performances on climbs like Anglirú to judge him on, I'm going to maintain my expectation that Nibali will outperform him there and probably win the Vuelta.

I could easily be wrong, because as I point out, Wiggins is untested on that kind of climb. He could acquit himself much better than anticipated.

 

[auscyclefan94]

For God's sake don't get so defensive.

People were unconvinced about Wiggins because he had never backed that original breakthrough performance up - in 2010 he was disappointing, and the 2009 Tour route neutralised many of the high mountains, so his climbing was still something that people were unsure about. Especially on a route with Anglirú on it, since we've NEVER seen an on-form Wiggins tackle a really steep climb like that. Because the focus of the event was more on climbing and less on the ITT, people were considering Wiggins not a threat because he's comparable to Menchov, but few would consider him to be a better climber, at least not before the start of this Vuelta anyway.

Climbing was something people were not unsure about with Antón. More than his 2010 Vuelta, he'd dropped Contador in Castilla y León, gone with Contador and Valverde in the 2008 Vuelta, and won a week 3 mountain stage in 2006. Now I defended Antón primarily because people were saying he was being judged a contender ONLY on the 2010 Vuelta. That's unfair. However, I judged him not consistent enough and considered Nibali the favourite. That was born out, in disappointing fashion.

To be honest, I am still willing to consider Nibali the favourite. He has come out of some very difficult Giro stages on very steep material smelling of roses (Zoncolán, Mortirolo) and his ride to defend his jersey on Bola del Mundo last year was spectacular. Wiggins on Farrapona and Anglirú is still a bit of a crapshoot. How good is he on that kind of climb? Truth be told, I'd expect Rodríguez to own him on that climb - but Rodríguez may have blown his chances yesterday, given that we have an ITT - his nemesis - and another climb suited to Wiggins in La Manzaneda after that.

On the plus side, that means that the likes of Purito will really have to make Anglirú hard right from the bottom. Wiggins will, if yesterday is anything to go by, just pretend they're not there and ride at his own tempo not caring if anybody's sitting on his back wheel or not. I don't think Purito can beat him - but Menchov or Nibali might get in between them, and the gaps on Anglirú will definitely be bigger than those on La Covatilla.

I always thought Wiggins had a decent tilt at the GC here - but I didn't think he could win, I thought the podium at the absolute best. Now it looks more like I was wrong, and the podium is likely, and the win at absolute best.

you're still willing to consider Nibali a favourite? When was he ever in doubt of being a favourite up to this stage?

I don't have much hope for Rodriguez. He's once again shown that the longer climbs really do him in. Andorra, Bola del Mundo, Morzine, St jean de Mauriennce are examples of this. He susceptible to time losses generally on climbs which are long and/or shallowe in comparison to the real steep climbs. With the ITT today, I think we can put the line through him. He couldn't afford one bad day in the mountains.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

The Dauphiné route wasn't rubbish. It was actually pretty decent.

The Paris-Nice route - THAT was rubbish.

Wiggins yesterday impressed me. I didn't think he had that in him. He just ground people down like he was Ivan Basso or something. No need to attack, just ride them off your wheel. Very good showing.

But to say that he is now the absolute favourite for the Vuelta may be a misnomer - remember that Nibali had spent energy in an attack earlier on, and despite the brilliant performance Wiggins still put:
7" into Nibali
8" into Menchov
15" into van den Broeck
37" into Nieve
37" into Monfort
46" into Bruseghin
46" into Rodríguez
1'23" into Brajkovic
1'46" into Antón
1'46" into Scarponi

With the possible exceptions of the last 3, that really isn't all that much, when you consider what is to come, and that he is still nearly a minute behind Nibali on the GC.

I remember saying about Wiggins' chances that I thought he could do well, if he limited his losses in the uphill finishes in the first week, because I felt that La Covatilla and La Manzaneda suited him. I didn't expect him to be putting time into people, but ultimately this was a one-climb stage and as a result the gaps aren't so great. What could or would have happened if it was a multi-climb stage is up for debate; given the form people were in yesterday it seems Wiggins may have been able to take more time. But some riders like Bruseghin need a bit more climbing to get their diesels warmed up; the 2009 Tour route had a few one-climb-stages where Wiggins was very impressive but the only real multi-climb stage saw him lose 3 minutes. It's hard to say because the camera didn't show much of what was going on behind in the latter stages, but clearly the Taaramäe/Menchov/Zubeldia/Kessiakoff/Poels group caught some of the time back in the last kilometre as Wiggins continued to pull.

The ITT today represents Wiggins' best chance at building up a lead. La Manzaneda suits him pretty well as well, but it falls after the rest day so I would expect the other riders to be relatively fresh and harder to drop in that style. However Wiggins did not waste energy chasing down needless attacks like Scarponi did, and rode a very sensible climb. If his tactic is going to be to simply pretend nobody else is there and grind his way up the climb, he's probably got a good chance of limiting his losses fairly competently on Farrapona and Anglirú - the question then will be, who's the one that takes the bull by the horns? Nibali was 3rd to Monte Zoncolán, and J-Rod was 3rd to Anglirú in service of Valverde in 2008. We've never really seen Wiggins in form on a climb of this calibre (it would be unfair to judge him on the 2010 Giro Zoncolán stage).

While I agree with every point you make, I do feel that the 3 minutes he lost needs to be put into its pretty unique context. While Christian Vande Velde did turn himself inside out for Wiggins he couldn't do so for the final climb, a climb on which they were up against Kloden, Armstrong and Contador from Astana and the Schleck Bros with Nibali tagging along and no-one else in sight.

Armstrong basically beat Wiggins up including track stands - something I've not seen in a road race since - while Nibali couldn't or wouldn't take a turn until he rode away on the descent.

Then again, Contator and Schleck jnr probably had more in the tank and could have gone further away if they had needed to; it was a strange race.

 

[Ferminal]

Let me guess, you support Man Utd but used to support Chelsea for a few years?

Are you suggesting that I jump on the bandwagon with winners? The nature of the concept of support in cycling is far too complex to bag it in with a couple of football teams.

I barrack for very few in cycling, and I'm never going to barrack for Wiggins, but I will find him a lot more tolerable and enjoy his efforts more if he can take it to the next level on the road. Yesterday he deserves strong praise for his work, but imagine what he would get if he actually won the stage.

 

[patterson_hood]

@Hitch

I'm not really complaining, just agreeing and giving my two pence worth, sorry if it seems inappropriate for this forum.

I also thought there was more cross-over between the forums but it seems not.

Anyway, back on topic, I had Wiggins, Nibali or Rodriguez down to win the Vuelta before it started and quickly settled on Nibali, think Bard is making me reconsider that hasty decision though.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

you're still willing to consider Nibali a favourite? When was he ever in doubt of being a favourite up to this stage?

I don't have much hope for Rodriguez. He's once again shown that the longer climbs really do him in. Andorra, Bola del Mundo, Morzine, St jean de Mauriennce are examples of this. He susceptible to time losses generally on climbs which are long and/or shallowe in comparison to the real steep climbs. With the ITT today, I think we can put the line through him. He couldn't afford one bad day in the mountains.

I said I was willing to consider Nibali the favourite, not a favourite. He's always been a favourite.

 

[Thomsena]

I've only just started posting and I already have to ignore alot of the posters. I agree with you Dave, I can't understand how some people on here manage to watch cycling, they must be foaming at the mouth with every stage as it seems that anyone who rides reasonably well is full of dope.

The clinic is ridiculous, I came looking for intelligent discussion on a subject that I find very interesting and have a fair bit of knowledge about. Instead it's baseless accusations and random insults.

A little hint how to know and ingore them posters. They usually use the term 'wheelsucker'..

 

[patterson_hood]

A little hint how to know and ingore them posters. They usually use the term 'wheelsucker'..

Good advice, noted

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Wiggins was never on my wheelsucker list to begin with. He always takes up responsiblity when he has to. What he did yesterday was super impressive.

At first I saw his 4th place in the Tour 2009 as a fluke result. But it was already clear after Paris Nice and the Dauphine this year that it is not.

 

[daveinzambia]

Apologies Hitch did go off topic, was just frustrated by responses early on this thread.

Not really sure whether Wiggins can win, as someone who has been waiting for a while to see how he can go in a grand tour yesterday was a very exciting stage.

And as someone earlier said, Froome deserves more credit as well as it was him that rode scarponi off the group.

really hoping he puts some time on the favorites today then can spend the next 2 weeks waiting to see if he can hold on. gong to be exciting

 

[Thomsena]

Wiggins was never on my wheelsucker list to begin with. He always takes up responsiblity when he has to. What he did yesterday was super impressive.

At first I saw his 4th place in the Tour 2009 as a fluke result. But it was already clear after Paris Nice and the Dauphine this year that it is not.

That was not my point. It's the term in general which is laughable.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I think Wiggins may of wanted some more time on Nibali today.

 

[Jamsque]

Yup, looked like a combination of fatigue from yesterday and not dosing his effort well enough today.

 

[Angliru]

To summarise:

- I think that, given that the time gaps were eventually pretty small on La Covatilla, we will have to reserve judgement on Wiggins becoming a favourite on the spot, since there are some stages that really don't suit him later in the race, whereas that climb, whilst not ideal for him, was certainly one that many felt he'd be able to comfortably handle
- regardless of whether he can, should, will or does win the race, what Wiggins has done is twofold. One, he has proven that he doesn't have to just be a follower or hanger-on in the mountains, when he puts his mind to it he can climb with the best. And two, he has won a lot of brand new respect as a GC rider, where before he was seen as a follower, a pretender, now we have to look at him as a proper contender. A diesel, for sure. A guy who is still unproven on the really steep stuff, for sure. But a contender, and a genuine one at that.

He appears to have become what Basso was and hopes to return to being.

 

[will10]

I think Wiggins may of wanted some more time on Nibali today.

Erm I think everyone did

No huge time gains on Fuglsang, Nibali etc but Scarponi and Rodriguez and obviously much less dangerous now. A lot will rest on the Angliru, we've not see Bradley tackle something like that. I think he's a genuine podium contender but Nibali should win from here.

 

[FignonLeGrand]

I am outside the UK and I like him. obviously not as bitter and twisted and most on here.

frankly started coming on here to keep an eye on transfer rumours, got drawn into a few discussions and now every time i read threads get utterly depressed by this place

over the continual bashing of riders, of anyone who does anything. honestly i wonder why some people in this forum even bother with the sport given the fact that apparently everyone dopes and they hate dopers.

will stick to reading the web site and wait a little longer to get transfer rumours confirmed and keep myself out of this sad depressing place.

Haha fantastic post, pity that it is true. The only truth on this site is that you win anything you are a doper. And if you are an anglo rider, you are a doper, classless or arrogant, and possibly all 3, What will happen if Wiggins does win (dont think he will though) 2 of the GT taken by English speaking anglos. It will be because all the best southern Europeans are not there. Oh there not, why? Because most of them were actually caught for doping, but thats Ok because they have class and know the tradition of cycling in Europe better.

find a clip of Wiggins winning the Pursuit in Beijing. Ok its not Ventoux or zoncolon but its one of the best displays of cycling purity you can see. One bike, one rider, one gear. . . . . awesome