Wiggins speaks about drugs

[blackcat]

Yeah I remember him saying something about winning the Tour. And he was great in London - I was there

Didn't know that about him outclimbing Basso though..

Basso switched off, it was a 2.2 tour, and the Queen stage would have been like an Ardennes stage

 

[RTMcFadden]

listed weights do provide a starting point tho

Actually, this is the one thing I would expect them all to lie about. Nothing better than to get inside your opponents head and have him think "I got to get skinnier to be competitive." Requires no effort on your part.

 

[blackcat]

not for the heavier riders where their wins are based on their max watts. So it then becomes all relative, how much weight can Wigans afford to lose. How much weight can Cancellara afford to lose. How much weight can Hincapie afford to lose.

 

[Winterfold]

I dont get this thing about him not being talented?

He's the outstanding pursuit rider of his generation. He had way more left in 2008 and only really turned it on in the 3rd km and backed off at the end.

The more I think about it, the more I think he hasn't really clocked how much more suffering and pain there is in a GT. 4km on the track, to a schedule you know will beat the other guy and you can crack off 10 times out of 10 is not the same as racing Contador over 5 Cat 1 climbs or up Ventoux at the end of 3 weeks in the saddle.

And before blackcat goes into lecture mode again, let me just restate my position clearly: my mind is open to the possibility that he could be clean, as it is with all other riders who have not tested positive and dont do silly things like smoking off the yellow jersey group at 35kmh on a 9% gradient.

On the other hand, they could all be jacked and Team GB could be a lie. Yep, it's a possibility.

PS I guess the mods were busy on this and the other thread? Too many people cannot ignore that guy, responding is not helping him (even though its what he wants) or the forum.

 

[pmcg76]

I dont get this thing about him not being talented?

He's the outstanding pursuit rider of his generation. He had way more left in 2008 and only really turned it on in the 3rd km and backed off at the end.

The more I think about it, the more I think he hasn't really clocked how much more suffering and pain there is in a GT. 4km on the track, to a schedule you know will beat the other guy and you can crack off 10 times out of 10 is not the same as racing Contador over 5 Cat 1 climbs or up Ventoux at the end of 3 weeks in the saddle.

And before blackcat goes into lecture mode again, let me just restate my position clearly: my mind is open to the possibility that he could be clean, as it is with all other riders who have not tested positive and dont do silly things like smoking off the yellow jersey group at 35kmh on a 9% gradient.

On the other hand, they could all be jacked and Team GB could be a lie. Yep, it's a possibility.

PS I guess the mods were busy on this and the other thread? Too many people cannot ignore that guy, responding is not helping him (even though its what he wants) or the forum.

Well, apparently it now seems some are actually admitting that he did actually have more talent than his previous performances in the Tour showed.
So when they say, there is no way he could go from the autobus to the Top 5, they actually mean from somewhere much higher.

So, the next obvious question is how high do the doubters think Wiggins could have placed in the Tour if he is focused without an alleged doping programme. Top 10, 20, 50, 100. Where would his natural talent put him?

 

[the big ring]

+1

All the people who have put wiggan's ability down but never ridden a pursuit are kidding themselves. All those predicting XYZ could ride a pursuit faster than Wiggans are kidding themselves. Just being able to ride quick does not make you a pursuiter.

 

[luckyboy]

Just because you have ability in pursuits doesn't mean you have ability to ride GC in a Grand Tour

That's like not being surprised at Cavendish going top 10 because he was a good sprinter.

So, the next obvious question is how high do the doubters think Wiggins could have placed in the Tour if he is focused without an alleged doping programme. Top 10, 20, 50, 100. Where would his natural talent put him?

Well, the last Tour he finished he was something like 3hrs 25 down. I'd take a guess and say that he could've improved to get within the top 30 - half an hour down. Somewhere about there. Anyway, it's kind of hard to properly discuss this that as noone would really have any idea how well he'd do.

 

[pmcg76]

Just because you have ability in pursuits doesn't mean you have ability to ride GC in a Grand Tour

That's like not being surprised at Cavendish going top 10 because he was a good sprinter.





Well, the last Tour he finished he was something like 3hrs 25 down. I'd take a guess and say that he could've improved to get within the top 30 - half an hour down. Somewhere about there. Anyway, it's kind of hard to properly discuss this that as noone would really have any idea how well he'd do.

So what you are saying is that there is no way of knowing if he could have also finished as high as 4th or is that somehow out of the equation.

 

[the big ring]

Just because you have ability in pursuits doesn't mean you have ability to ride GC in a Grand Tour

...

Who says? You? Got a degree in physiology? Ever trained for and ridden a pursuit? Ever ridden a tour?

So many experts here, yet all they do is put a rider down. Hmmm....

 

[luckyboy]

Hey, I'm not one of the guys who is just out to put Wiggins down/whatever was going on last night that caused such a fuss/messed up that wiki page.

And I don't see how we all have to have degrees in what we are discussing, nor do we have had to have ridden at a high level or partake in certain areas of the sport to have some opinion on it. This section of the forum wouldn't exist if that was the rule.

So what you are saying is that there is no way of knowing if he could have also finished as high as 4th or is that somehow out of the equation.

I'm saying that I believe that he did use some form of PED to go that much higher than he ever had before, so it would be hard for me to guess where he would've finished if it was just training/weight loss.

 

[blackcat]

+1

All the people who have put wiggan's ability down but never ridden a pursuit are kidding themselves. All those predicting XYZ could ride a pursuit faster than Wiggans are kidding themselves. Just being able to ride quick does not make you a pursuiter.

Thomas, Phinney, Bobridge, and the performance of Huizenga in Manchester Worlds suggester otherwise. Phinney developed the elite skillset to ride 4'15" in under 18 months. You are suggesting Cancellara et al could not? Bunkum.

 

[the big ring]

...

And I don't see how we all have to have degrees in what we are discussing, nor do we have had to have ridden at a high level or partake in certain areas of the sport to have some opinion on it. This section of the forum wouldn't exist if that was the rule.

...

You keep rewording / augmenting what I have written. Very strange.

I am just calling you on your confident postings about a rider's ability. My posts apply to anyone posting about Wiggans as if he's some club mutt who suddenly won the tour, completely disregarding the track training and racing he has excelled in for quite some time. He beat Bradley McGee in the pursuit and noone questions McGee's ability on the road.

Cycling is very simple - there's 3 basic energy systems and your ability tends to reflect which energy system is the predominant one for you. Even though pursuit is only 4km, they are called "enduros" on the track, and you only have to do one pursuit to work out why. You only have to ride one points race to see how it would lend itself to accelerating uphill repeatedly - something Wiggans claims he could have done. You only need to do one MTB race to see it's essentially a solo TT - exactly how Evans climbs.

I am not saying any one rider (other than Cadel ) is clean, but to discount someone like Wiggans based purely on opinion seems pretty ridiculous to me.

 

[the big ring]

Thomas, Phinney, Bobridge, and the performance of Huizenga in Manchester Worlds suggester otherwise. Phinney developed the elite skillset to ride 4'15" in under 18 months. You are suggesting Cancellara et al could not? Bunkum.

I would put money on Cancellara never doing pursuit. There is a difference between ability and desire.

I do not know Phinney's history, but you seem to be suggesting he got on the bike for the first time and 18 months later rode a 4'15". Kudos to him if that is so. Not like he chose good parents or anything, is it?

 

[blackcat]

I would put money on Cancellara never doing pursuit. There is a difference between ability and desire.

I do not know Phinney's history, but you seem to be suggesting he got on the bike for the first time and 18 months later rode a 4'15". Kudos to him if that is so. Not like he chose good parents or anything, is it?

you said "it was not just a matter of being fast". I said there were riders who had a few seconds on Wigans in a prologue, and these riders with a superior wattage threshold could take him over 4km.

 

[blackcat]

You keep rewording / augmenting what I have written. Very strange.

I am just calling you on your confident postings about a rider's ability. My posts apply to anyone posting about Wiggans as if he's some club mutt who suddenly won the tour, completely disregarding the track training and racing he has excelled in for quite some time. He beat Bradley McGee in the pursuit and noone questions McGee's ability on the road.

Cycling is very simple - there's 3 basic energy systems and your ability tends to reflect which energy system is the predominant one for you. Even though pursuit is only 4km, they are called "enduros" on the track, and you only have to do one pursuit to work out why. You only have to ride one points race to see how it would lend itself to accelerating uphill repeatedly - something Wiggans claims he could have done. You only need to do one MTB race to see it's essentially a solo TT - exactly how Evans climbs.

I am not saying any one rider (other than Cadel ) is clean, but to discount someone like Wiggans based purely on opinion seems pretty ridiculous to me.

Mcgee had lost alot of weight, and changed his goals to ride for classement on the road. Lets see Wigans ride a 4'15" off the Tour at 71kgs. Wont happen.

If Mcgee v Wigans are given exactly the same preparation, now that is a race I wanted to see circa 2004.

 

[the big ring]

you said "it was not just a matter of being fast". I said there were riders who had a few seconds on Wigans in a prologue, and these riders with a superior wattage threshold could take him over 4km.

Hmmm I'll take your word for it that that is what I said, but I still disagree.

1. You have to start from a machine / "gate".
2. You have to ride a fixed gear
3. You have to ride on the black line.
4. You have to do it all over again a couple of hours later.

Even Lance struggled in a recent TT coz there were no corners to rest up in...

 

[PACONi]

Hmmm I'll take your word for it that that is what I said, but I still disagree.

1. You have to start from a machine / "gate".
2. You have to ride a fixed gear
3. You have to ride on the black line.
4. You have to do it all over again a couple of hours later.

Even Lance struggled in a recent TT coz there were no corners to rest up in...

No offense, but gate starts aren't that hard and its not like these guys wouldn't have ample opportunity to practice them. Likewise riding a fixie, especially over 4k on a track. Being smooth also comes with practice, the only tough part is being able to recover in time to do it again. Some guys recover better than others.

I too would have loved to see a Wigans v McGee where both guys put priority on their track program.

 

[blackcat]

Hmmm I'll take your word for it that that is what I said, but I still disagree.

1. You have to start from a machine / "gate".
2. You have to ride a fixed gear
3. You have to ride on the black line.
4. You have to do it all over again a couple of hours later.

Even Lance struggled in a recent TT coz there were no corners to rest up in...

Between 04-10-2007 and 13-02-2009 Phinney mastered the skills to ride 4'15".

We saying guys like Farrar and Hincapie could not surpass that time, which incidentally is Wiggins in comp pb. Yeah, he probably has 2-3 seconds up his sleeve.

The skills are not insurmountable.

 

[woodburn]

Two things, regardless of whether Wiggns doped or not.

When you are riding for GC your approach is very different in that you stay out of the grupettos that lose you tons of time.

Also, finishing fourth against field for the 2009 Tour wasn't exactly as great as it might appear. More like a Top 10 when you consider the previous first- and second-place finishers (Sastre and Evans) were not in peak form, Valverde and Basso essentially banned and Leipheimer crashed out. Kloeden was effectively neutralized because he was riding for Armstrong.

It was surprising to see Wiggins beat Kruezinger and Nibali.

 

[the big ring]

No offense, but gate starts aren't that hard and its not like these guys wouldn't have ample opportunity to practice them. Likewise riding a fixie, especially over 4k on a track. Being smooth also comes with practice, the only tough part is being able to recover in time to do it again. Some guys recover better than others.

I too would have loved to see a Wigans v McGee where both guys put priority on their track program.

If you think you can start as well as Brad Wiggins out of a gate, then you must be very confident. Vics masters are on at DISC this weekend - will I see you down there?

 

[blackcat]

If you think you can start as well as Brad Wiggins out of a gate, then you must be very confident. Vics masters are on at DISC this weekend - will I see you down there?

Armstrong, Mcgee, Hushovd, Moreau, Cancellara, all have won prologues.

The best indication of a prologue, Dauphine, the 4km one, up and back. Best indication of the watts. Indicative of a pursuit, hit threshold, hold it, and do it twice, 2km each. In 2006 Dauphine, the year he gave away the track, he was way back. About 12 seconds.

Not talking starts and track skills. Just talking what he can do in a chrono, is more indicative of his GT ability. And reverse engineering it, all these guys who beat him over 4 minutes, if they get the track skills, you dont think they can take Wigans?

Wigans teammates, Hayles, Manning, Thomas, Clancy, all sub 4'20". But what have they done. They compete in a discipline, with really weak depth. They rise to the top, cos the depth is so weak. If the Germans had a richly funded track program, and took Greipel, Martin, Ciolek, Bartko for a teams pursuit, they would whip anyone else. Bartko bested 4 minutes in Sydney in the teams. And did 4'17" in the IP. He is younger than Manning. Much younger than Hayles. Martin rode teams pursuits in the jnrs. I dont know of Greipel and Ciolek.

Folks overrate track medals, the best talent migrates to the road where the big $$$ are. Mcgee is the only guy who has pulled off a prologue at the Tour, arguably the best indication of talent of 10 minute testing.

 

[Oldman]

Between 04-10-2007 and 13-02-2009 Phinney mastered the skills to ride 4'15".

We saying guys like Farrar and Hincapie could not surpass that time, which incidentally is Wiggins in comp pb. Yeah, he probably has 2-3 seconds up his sleeve.

The skills are not insurmountable.

You are stunningly close to the career path of all three. Hincapie did track work as a junior combined with stage racing. Farrar was relegated to a huge track regimen for awhile because USACycling seemed to lack the budget to get him and other long team guys on the road. He developed a stronger base as a result. Farrar was always fast and training him to pursuit would make him an extremely fast pursuiter. Hincapie was also an amazing climber as a junior in pro/am races. The point about pedigree being trained to do the task at hand applies to each of them. Long term recovery seems to be a more genetic gift: guys that can't complete a 3 week tour by the time they're in their mid-twenties will not likely accomplish it later with natural means. Likewise someone suddenly pre-emminent in the latter stages of a 3 week race is suspect. That doesn't make Wiggans or the others named above specifically suspect but you do trade your ability to do one thing for another.

 

[blackcat]

You are stunningly close to the career path of all three. Hincapie did track work as a junior combined with stage racing. Farrar was relegated to a huge track regimen for awhile because USACycling seemed to lack the budget to get him and other long team guys on the road. He developed a stronger base as a result. Farrar was always fast and training him to pursuit would make him an extremely fast pursuiter. Hincapie was also an amazing climber as a junior in pro/am races. The point about pedigree being trained to do the task at hand applies to each of them. Long term recovery seems to be a more genetic gift: guys that can't complete a 3 week tour by the time they're in their mid-twenties will not likely accomplish it later with natural means. Likewise someone suddenly pre-emminent in the latter stages of a 3 week race is suspect. That doesn't make Wiggans or the others named above specifically suspect but you do trade your ability to do one thing for another.

I know Farrar was a pursuiter, was at World jnrs. And Hincapie started as a pursuiter.

I dont say they would beat Phinney in the end. But at the moment, they would be able to take him if given the 18 months prep.

But Phinney, would have taken the pursuit to new heights. The UCI and IOC have betrayed him. Phenomenal talent, anyone who can ride a 1'01" kilo and a 4'15" when only 18, just, WOW.

He could potentially have held the kilo WR and the pursuit WR. But there are no gold medals in those disciplines, so no Weeties box for TP.

 

[Oldman]

I know Farrar was a pursuiter, was at World jnrs. And Hincapie started as a pursuiter.

I dont say they would beat Phinney in the end. But at the moment, they would be able to take him if given the 18 months prep.

But Phinney, would have taken the pursuit to new heights. The UCI and IOC have betrayed him. Phenomenal talent, anyone who can ride a 1'01" kilo and a 4'15" when only 18, just, WOW.

He could potentially have held the kilo WR and the pursuit WR. But there are no gold medals in those disciplines, so no Weeties box for TP.

Too true. I think his heart lies with the road anyway. His Mom and Dad were racers. It takes a certain isolated geeky personality to stay as a track specialist for any length of time. Have you seen the Italian podium girls? That's enough to get any 18 year old's hormones directed.

 

[blackcat]

You are stunningly close to the career path of all three. Hincapie did track work as a junior combined with stage racing. Farrar was relegated to a huge track regimen for awhile because USACycling seemed to lack the budget to get him and other long team guys on the road. He developed a stronger base as a result. Farrar was always fast and training him to pursuit would make him an extremely fast pursuiter. Hincapie was also an amazing climber as a junior in pro/am races. The point about pedigree being trained to do the task at hand applies to each of them. Long term recovery seems to be a more genetic gift: guys that can't complete a 3 week tour by the time they're in their mid-twenties will not likely accomplish it later with natural means. Likewise someone suddenly pre-emminent in the latter stages of a 3 week race is suspect. That doesn't make Wiggans or the others named above specifically suspect but you do trade your ability to do one thing for another.

also Oldman, that is why I picked those guys.

I could have picked Martin too, who won a prologue or two. I know Ster Electro, not sure if he won ToG prologue. Think that was Lancaster and Ciolek.

But Renshaw also rode a 1'01" at 18. Cav is not great on the track bike over the pursuit, but he is probably as good as Cancellara, for a prologue under 3km. Renshaw had a 1'01" and rode a 3'59" teams when he was 19 or maybe 20. Had great talent on the track.

I think the only nation that could push a hypothetical German teams pursuit would be a hypothetical US team with Phinney, Hincapie, Farrar, and Zirbel. I would pay good money to see US v Germany v Aus v GB. A GB team with Wigans at 80kg. And an Aus team with Renshaw at full track potential.