Wiggins speaks about drugs

[blackcat]

Too true. I think his heart lies with the road anyway. His Mom and Dad were racers. It takes a certain isolated geeky personality to stay as a track specialist for any length of time. Have you seen the Italian podium girls? That's enough to get any 18 year old's hormones directed.

well, Cav has seen 'em, and obviously likes what he sees.

 

[Oldman]

also Oldman, that is why I picked those guys.

I could have picked Martin too, who won a prologue or two. I know Ster Electro, not sure if he won ToG prologue. Think that was Lancaster and Ciolek.

But Renshaw also rode a 1'01" at 18. Cav is not great on the track bike over the pursuit, but he is probably as good as Cancellara, for a prologue under 3km. Renshaw had a 1'01" and rode a 3'59" teams when he was 19 or maybe 20. Had great talent on the track.

I think the only nation that could push a hypothetical German teams pursuit would be a hypothetical US team with Phinney, Hincapie, Farrar, and Zirbel. I would pay good money to see US v Germany v Aus v GB. A GB team with Wigans at 80kg. And an Aus team with Renshaw at full track potential.

You correctly placed emphasis on "hypothetical". The dysfunction in US Team management and sponsorship would make that almost impossible. There isn't much support beyond the Trade team. Our World's teams were stocked with guys that were around to support LA; who couldn't keep his ego in check long enough to let anyone else have a shot. One more reason to love him and his legacy. But this should be about Wiggans so forget I said that.

 

[blackcat]

also, reference to Hincapie/Farrar "we saying Hincapie and Farrar could not surpass that time" was rhetoric, which inference was, those guys could have taken Wigans on the track imo.

 

[blackcat]

You correctly placed emphasis on "hypothetical". The dysfunction in US Team management and sponsorship would make that almost impossible. There isn't much support beyond the Trade team. Our World's teams were stocked with guys that were around to support LA; who couldn't keep his ego in check long enough to let anyone else have a shot. One more reason to love him and his legacy. But this should be about Wiggans so forget I said that.

The young kid Craddock is a trackie too. He was second in the worlds jnr chrono. Tall, big frame. Sorta like Phinney.

 

[Martin318is]

Mcgee is the only guy who has pulled off a prologue at the Tour, arguably the best indication of talent of 10 minute testing.

What about Boardman? He won World and Olympic pursuits and numerous prologues and wasn't there one year that he top 20'd the Tour? (sorry, at work and can't go look that up)

 

[blackcat]

What about Boardman? He won World and Olympic pursuits and numerous prologues and wasn't there one year that he top 20'd the Tour? (sorry, at work and can't go look that up)

right. I was focusing on the last decade. Boardman was in a class of his own.

 

[PACONi]

If you think you can start as well as Brad Wiggins out of a gate, then you must be very confident. Vics masters are on at DISC this weekend - will I see you down there?

Did I say I was = Wigans at gate starts? Is that your point? If I haven't got those skills then Cancellara and co couldn't develop them either?

I won't be at DISC, am on holiday in QLD for the next fortnight. TBH I haven't raced anywhere near as much as I would have liked this summer. Are you one of these people who think that unless you're an elite Masters or Pro that you couldn't know jack all?

My experience is that gate starts aren't that hard. Do I nail them each time, of course not. But I don't practice them much either.

 

[blackcat]

Did I say I was = Wigans at gate starts? Is that your point? If I haven't got those skills then Cancellara and co couldn't develop them either?

I won't be at DISC, am on holiday in QLD for the next fortnight. TBH I haven't raced anywhere near as much as I would have liked this summer. Are you one of these people who think that unless you're an elite Masters or Pro that you couldn't know jack all?

My experience is that gate starts aren't that hard. Do I nail them each time, of course not. But I don't practice them much either.

start gates are irrelevant. My point on pursuits, if the skill could be achieved, the watts from the road transfers, and Wigans has not won a major chrono or prologue. Best would be Dauphine 07. But see 06 below.

4km flat prologue. 180 degree turn. So effectively 2 starts. Should have suited Wigans.

This is 2006. His first year, he left the track behind, to seek success on the road. 100% road.

1 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 4.35.84 (53.509 km/h)
2 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.01.88
3 Stuart O'grady (Aus) Team CSC 0.06.07
4 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.06.91
5 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 0.07.35
6 Stijn Devolder (Bel) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.07.40
7 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.07.61
8 Vladimir Gusev (Rus) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.07.70
9 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.08.00
10 Andrey Kashechkin (Kaz) Würth 0.08.19
11 Peter Mazur (Pol) Saunier Duval-Prodir 0.08.50
12 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R Prevoyance 0.08.96
13 Bert Grabsch (Ger) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.01
14 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Credit Agricole 0.09.32
15 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Würth 0.09.62
16 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.67
17 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.10.26
18 Manuel Quinziato (Ita) Liquigas 0.10.37
19 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0.10.46
20 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0.10.99
21 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Cofidis, le Credit par Telephone 0.11.02
22 Ronny Scholz (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.11.06
23 Thomas Dekker (Ned) Rabobank 0.11.23
24 Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Française des Jeux 0.11.30
25 Erik Dekker (Ned) Rabobank 0.11.34
26 Didier Rous (Fra) Bouygues Telecom 0.11.35
27 Michael Barry (Can) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.11.39
28 Iker Camano (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0.12.10
29 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.12.19
30 Remmert Wielinga (Ned) Quick Step-Innergetic 0.12.30
31 Brian Vandborg (Den) Team CSC 0.12.38
32 Florent Brard (Fra) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.12.40
33 Marco Pinotti (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir 0.12.68
34 Andriy Grivko (Ukr) Team Milram 0.13.30
35 Aitor Hernandez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0.13.36
36 Carlos Barredo (Spa) Würth 0.13.40
37 Nicolas Jalabert (Fra) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.13.82
38 Christophe Edaleine (Fra) Credit Agricole 0.13.85
39 Filippo Pozzato (Ita) Quick Step-Innergetic 0.13.90
40 Christopher Horner (USA) Davitamon-Lotto 0.14.60
41 Benjamin Noval (Spa) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.14.79
42 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) AG2R Prevoyance 0.15.06
43 Pedro Horrillo (Spa) Rabobank 0.15.09
44 Mikel Astarloza (Spa) AG2R Prevoyance 0.15.15
45 Kurt Arvesen (Nor) Team CSC 0.15.23
46 Benoit Vaugrenard (Fra) Française des Jeux 0.15.50
47 Mark Renshaw (Aus) Credit Agricole 0.15.73
48 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 0.15.82

 

[Oldman]

start gates are irrelevant. My point on pursuits, if the skill could be achieved, the watts from the road transfers, and Wigans has not won a major chrono or prologue. Best would be Dauphine 07. But see 06 below.

4km flat prologue. 180 degree turn. So effectively 2 starts. Should have suited Wigans.

This is 2006. His first year, he left the track behind, to seek success on the road. 100% road.

1 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 4.35.84 (53.509 km/h)
2 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.01.88
3 Stuart O'grady (Aus) Team CSC 0.06.07
4 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.06.91
5 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 0.07.35
6 Stijn Devolder (Bel) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.07.40
7 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.07.61
8 Vladimir Gusev (Rus) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.07.70
9 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.08.00
10 Andrey Kashechkin (Kaz) Würth 0.08.19
11 Peter Mazur (Pol) Saunier Duval-Prodir 0.08.50
12 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R Prevoyance 0.08.96
13 Bert Grabsch (Ger) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.01
14 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Credit Agricole 0.09.32
15 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Würth 0.09.62
16 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.67
17 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.10.26
18 Manuel Quinziato (Ita) Liquigas 0.10.37
19 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0.10.46
20 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0.10.99
21 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Cofidis, le Credit par Telephone 0.11.02

Ah, yes; but you have to shift a few times; brake and accelerate. Add the anxiety of a debut Tour and anyone loses a few seconds. Prologues without a hill ususally show which sprinters are also good pursuiters. Check the first three places; then you get into more pure TT'ers. It's not just about watts.

 

[blackcat]

Ah, yes; but you have to shift a few times; brake and accelerate. Add the anxiety of a debut Tour and anyone loses a few seconds. Prologues without a hill ususally show which sprinters are also good pursuiters. Check the first three places; then you get into more pure TT'ers. It's not just about watts.

2005 Giro prologue Ogrady rode a fixie.

 

[Big GMaC]

Blackcat, Renshaw is, if I am not much mistaken a Kiwi. Would be interesting to see him ride in the Aussie Pursuit Team

 

[PACONi]

2005 Giro prologue Ogrady rode a fixie.

Ogrady has a long track history. Also note Lancaster won that prologue, another Team Pursuiter.

My point was that I think any current pro could learn the necessary skills for pursuiting.

 

[Big GMaC]

Ah, yes; but you have to shift a few times; brake and accelerate. Add the anxiety of a debut Tour and anyone loses a few seconds. Prologues without a hill ususally show which sprinters are also good pursuiters. Check the first three places; then you get into more pure TT'ers. It's not just about watts.

Also hadn't Wigans spent a year as a layabout drunk?

My point was that I think any current pro could learn the necessary skills for pursuiting.

But yes, most of the TT/Sprint biased Pros could pull off a strong Pursuit if they trained for it I think.

Boonen is very strong in shorts TTs, Canc, Hushovd, EbH, Peter Sagan

 

[blackcat]

Ogrady has a long track history. Also note Lancaster won that prologue, another Team Pursuiter.

My point was that I think any current pro could learn the necessary skills for pursuiting.

I was making that argument first (in this thread). I was responding to Oldman.

 

[blackcat]

Also hadn't Wigans spent a year as a layabout drunk?



But yes, most of the TT/Sprint biased Pros could pull off a strong Pursuit if they trained for it I think.

Boonen is very strong in shorts TTs, Canc, Hushovd, EbH, Peter Sagan

Boonen and Tom Steels started off as kilo riders on the track.

So add Boonen to a guy I reckon would have Wigans measure over 4km.

 

[Big GMaC]

And an Aus team with Renshaw at full track potential.

How does the 2006 DL fit in with that?

4km flat prologue. 180 degree turn. So effectively 2 starts. Should have suited Wigans.

1 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 4.35.84 (53.509 km/h)
2 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.01.88
3 Stuart O'Grady (Aus) Team CSC 0.06.07
4 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.06.91
5 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 0.07.35
6 Stijn Devolder (Bel) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.07.40
7 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.07.61
9 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.08.00
12 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R Prevoyance 0.08.96
13 Bert Grabsch (Ger) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.01
14 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Credit Agricole 0.09.32
15 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Würth 0.09.62
16 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.67
17 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.10.26
19 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0.10.46
21 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Cofidis, le Credit par Telephone 0.11.02
24 Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Française des Jeux 0.11.30
29 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.12.19
40 Christopher Horner (USA) Davitamon-Lotto 0.14.60
44 Mikel Astarloza (Spa) AG2R Prevoyance 0.15.15
47 Mark Renshaw (Aus) Credit Agricole 0.15.73

I mean on that list there are little climbers etc. ahead of renshaw.

It also gives some idea of the riders you could train a pursuit to, esp to the top 20 or so, some have been <\snipped> for space

 

[blackcat]

How does the 2006 DL fit in with that?



I mean on that list there are little climbers etc. ahead of renshaw.

It also gives some idea of the riders you could train a pursuit to, esp to the top 20 or so, some have been <\snipped> for space

Geraint Thomas never road a pursuit before doing an impressive try out in Manchester team camp for 2008 Beijing. Renshaw never rode chronos or individual pursuits. His specificity in the pros was sprints and cobbles, see: Tro Bro Leon. Also a few years younger than Wigans. See his improvement in 2009 Cali and 2009 Germany prologue. Renshaw has the anaerobic component but never trained the aerobic threshold to tt or something that would be applicable to the pursuit.

Renshaw is 4.5 seconds behind Wigans, who was targeting the Tour de France prologue, and the Dauphine as a test. Renshaw never had that as an objective.

 

[blackcat]

Be interested to see how G Thomas climbs at the Tour in support of Wigans. He should be able to get down to under 70 when he attempts to transform to a GC rider. This year, targeting the Monaco prologue. It will be a good test. He was a little disappointing in my view in Paris Nice prologue.

 

[timmers]

So the Tour starts in the Netherlands so you think a guy with no results willget results in Monaco? why would sky start Thomas in the Tour? Surely he is B grade races!

 

[blackcat]

So the Tour starts in the Netherlands so you think a guy with no results willget results in Monaco? why would sky start Thomas in the Tour? Surely he is B grade races!

whoops. edit. Wrong prologue destination

Thomas is viewed as a future winner of the Tour at Sky.

 

[Big GMaC]

So the Tour starts in the Netherlands so you think a guy with no results willget results in Monaco? why would sky start Thomas in the Tour? Surely he is B grade races!

1. Thomas has compelete a tour already (at 21!)

2. As the long term GC target he will go

 

[Winterfold]

Mcgee is the only guy who has pulled off a prologue at the Tour, arguably the best indication of talent of 10 minute testing.

Boardman?

I'm guessing someone will else will have picked this up but havent got through the thread yet

 

[python]

wiggins' watts in 2006 impressive

from the 2006 article on wiggins’ power and drugs.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/jun/04/cycling.news

some very serious numbers there. they more or less fall in line with the 2008/09 numbers produced by a. lim.

To win the Olympic gold medal in Athens, for example, I needed to be riding at 570 or 580 watts for four minutes. I'm about 10 or 15 watts better than I was in Athens

It's bad for the sport in one sense, but I'm glad in a way for riders like me, who won't touch drugs.

 

[Winterfold]

right. I was focusing on the last decade. Boardman was in a class of his own.

Fastest UK 10 mile TT (out of competition) 17:54 Boardman

Fastest UK 10 mile TT (in competition) 17:58 Wiggins

So if Boardman is in class of his own, Wiggins is pretty close to being in it with him.

I'm not disputing there are riders eg Renshaw in particular who would give him a real run for his money, and maybe beat him, if they gave the IP a decent shot.

But that wasn't the point that was being made, people were sledging the guy like he is some muppet who has come out of nowhere, when he is in fact an immensely powerful rider coming to terms with the transition from another discipline.

 

[blackcat]

Fastest UK 10 mile TT (out of competition) 17:54 Boardman

Fastest UK 10 mile TT (in competition) 17:58 Wiggins

So if Boardman is in class of his own, Wiggins is pretty close to being in it with him.

I'm not disputing there are riders eg Renshaw in particular who would give him a real run for his money, and maybe beat him, if they gave the IP a decent shot.

But that wasn't the point that was being made, people were sledging the guy like he is some muppet who has come out of nowhere, when he is in fact an immensely powerful rider coming to terms with the transition from another discipline.

relative to his contemporaries. Boardman won 3 prologues at the Tour.