Wiggins to Sky

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lucybears

Mar 10, 2009
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dimspace said:
seems to be the same route every year.. unfortuantely the pages i found with the 2008/2009 route on had dead links to all the maps..
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not quite - last three

Etoile de Bessèges 2007
http://calendar.cyclingfever.com/index.html?_p=wedstrijdinfo&sw_i=z&jaar=2007&maand=2&id=16976
Etoile de Bessèges 2008
http://calendar.cyclingfever.com/index.html?_p=wedstrijdinfo&sw_i=z&jaar=2008&maand=2&id=18628
Etoile de Bessèges 2009
http://calendar.cyclingfever.com/index.html?_p=wedstrijdinfo&sw_i=z&jaar=2009&maand=2&id=19143
 
Hugh Januss

Hugh Januss

Jul 9, 2009
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"Well, you know, key British riders maybe under contract and we've got to respect that." *
David Brailsford BBC interview September 2009.


* Unless we can lawyer up and bust them out.
 
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Kingsley A

Aug 3, 2009
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Francois the Postman said:
Nice find, thanks Dim. That certainly answered the "what happened" question that I had.

So the Bosman ruling has hit cycling too now? That might ruffle some more legal feathers, given what it did to football.
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I don't actually see what the Bosman or Webster rulings could have to do with this case. The Bosman ruling was specifically about players (riders) who's contract had expired and were still being prevented from signing a new contract with a different team and for the Webster ruling to apply a player (rider) must have served 3 years of their contract if they are under 28 or 2 years if they are older; i.e. in Brad's case.

I also don't see why either UK or EU law would be applicable here, as JV claims. Slipstream Sports is based in Boulder CO. if I am not mistaken, and thus surely riders contracted to them should be subject to the laws of the State of Colorado or US Federal law.

An off-topic example would be if I bought software from Microsoft but subsequently believed that they had broken the terms of the licence agreement. Despite making my purchase in the UK using Pounds Sterling, I would have no recourse through the UK courts and would have to sue via the courts of Washington State as that is where in the initial contract was agreed.

I may have a very bad understanding of international contract law and thus paragraphs 3 & 4 may be erroneous, but I know there are lawyers who post on this site and so will welcome correction to the errors in my understanding.
 
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lucybears

Mar 10, 2009
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Kingsley A said:
I don't actually see what the Bosman or Webster rulings could have to do with this case. The Bosman ruling was specifically about players (riders) who's contract had expired and were still being prevented from signing a new contract with a different team and for the Webster ruling to apply a player (rider) must have served 3 years of their contract if they are under 28 or 2 years if they are older; i.e. in Brad's case.

I also don't see why either UK or EU law would be applicable here, as JV claims. Slipstream Sports is based in Boulder CO. if I am not mistaken, and thus surely riders contracted to them should be subject to the laws of the State of Colorado or US Federal law.

An off-topic example would be if I bought software from Microsoft but subsequently believed that they had broken the terms of the licence agreement. Despite making my purchase in the UK using Pounds Sterling, I would have no recourse through the UK courts and would have to sue via the courts of Washington State as that is where in the initial contract was agreed.

I may have a very bad understanding of international contract law and thus paragraphs 3 & 4 may be erroneous, but I know there are lawyers who post on this site and so will welcome correction to the errors in my understanding.
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So how much time & how many $ would that cost for Garmin to defend a threatened action ? The carrot was $, the stick was lawyers. Garmin v Sky was not a fair fight. As JV says, "The legal resources Sky has at its disposal are quite large.”
 
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Kingsley A

Aug 3, 2009
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lucybears said:
So how much time & how many $ would that cost for Garmin to defend a threatened action ? The carrot was $, the stick was lawyers. Garmin v Sky was not a fair fight. As JV says, "The legal resources Sky has at its disposal are quite large.”
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Yes. I did omit the the fact that Rupert and News Corp. have been regarded as amongst the most unscrupulous corporate bully boys of the last few decades and James is rumoured to be a chip off the old block.

Ever since Team Sky was announced I have been fighting the cognitive dissonance caused by my national pride in finally having a top flight British team and my hatred of Murdoch and all he (they?) stand for.

Private Eye readers: c.f. The Dirty Digger!
 
Francois the Postman

Francois the Postman

Oct 29, 2009
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Kingsley A said:
I don't actually see what the Bosman or Webster rulings could have to do with this case. The Bosman ruling was specifically about players (riders) who's contract had expired and were still being prevented from signing a new contract with a different team and for the Webster ruling to apply a player (rider) must have served 3 years of their contract if they are under 28 or 2 years if they are older; i.e. in Brad's case.
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Correct, it is just my awkward shorthand for "freedom of labour movement within the EU". It's the principle: being able to walk away from any contract. You can not be stopped from going, but you can be sued for breach of contact - if you have the cash and the time to do that (this bit off course did not apply to Bosman).

Webster used updated FIFA rules, combined with that same EU labour principle. The question is: what are UCI rules, exactly. And how do they square up with EU labour law, or UK, if that's the one that UCI dictates to be the "governing one" for contracts within a UCI framework.

I also don't see why either UK or EU law would be applicable here, as JV claims. Slipstream Sports is based in Boulder CO. if I am not mistaken, and thus surely riders contracted to them should be subject to the laws of the State of Colorado or US Federal law.
Click to expand...

If Vaughters's statement is true - IF- , and UCI rules are [established as] subservient to national employment law, and because cycling doesn’t have a formalized transfer system, rider contracts are governed by the contract or employment law of the rider’s nationality. then the home of Garmin has become irrelevant.

This must have been the case that Sky threatened to make, and by the look of things it would be at least strong enough to actually make that case seriously enough, for a heck of a long time, so there must be something to it, and not be totally frivolous.

And they had 3 stages as far as I could see. UCI, US, UK (and that all the way to the EU court)

I doubt if US law would fall in line with "of the rider" if tested in US courts, but it seems that there was a strong enough case to cause parties to believe it would be a legal tussle.

I could see a situation where US courts would decide something different, as US law frequently doesn't give a rat's arse what rules govern others in other countries. But if (also?) tested here, and a UK or EU court, or the UCI, would come to different conclusion, and that could well result in a situation where Wiggins simply could not ride in Europe. Like Italy was a no-go zone for Valverde, because of conflicting rulings by bodies governing different regions.

Take on Murdoch's lawyers?

I guess I'd take the money too. And to be frank, I think Garmin has made the better deal. I'm ready to eat my words in 2010.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Francois the Postman said:
Nice find, thanks Dim. That certainly answered the "what happened" question that I had.

So the Bosman ruling has hit cycling too now? That might ruffle some more legal feathers, given what it did to football.
Click to expand...

you can always rely on bolder.. hes on my regular checklist..
 
St. Elia

St. Elia

Apr 1, 2009
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I have to say I lost some respect for Wiggo. I started to really like him and then hate him with the wigan statement and then like him again after his interview in Australia (something about changing his TV sat package to sky). and now I realize he just a self serving ***. I hope he crashes and burns.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
St. Elia said:
I have to say I lost some respect for Wiggo. I started to really like him and then hate him with the wigan statement and then like him again after his interview in Australia (something about changing his TV sat package to sky). and now I realize he just a self serving ***. I hope he crashes and burns.
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he was joking.. and he said he already had sky cos the kids like the kids channels but he was considering switching...

people round here really have had Soh-bypasses
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
St. Elia said:
I have to say I lost some respect for Wiggo. I started to really like him and then hate him with the wigan statement and then like him again after his interview in Australia (something about changing his TV sat package to sky). and now I realize he just a self serving ***. I hope he crashes and burns.
Click to expand...

Taking it all a bit too seriously, aren't we? We don't want cyclists to be like robots never saying anything about anything for fear of getting branded a "***"? What a boring world that would be. That's not to say you have to like everything he says, but to turn on him for such a shallow reason is over the top.
 
Christian

Christian

Mar 13, 2009
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Well I bet T. Lövkvist must be bummed out, since he "expected to be the leader at the TdF" - well, probably not for the next four years! Guess you should have thought of that before switching to Sky!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
St. Elia said:
I have to say I lost some respect for Wiggo. I started to really like him and then hate him with the wigan statement and then like him again after his interview in Australia (something about changing his TV sat package to sky). and now I realize he just a self serving ***. I hope he crashes and burns.
Click to expand...

Have to say, I agree completely. Last year he finds a team who believes in him and supports him. This year he turns into an ascot wearing diva. I wonder how big his entourage will be at next year's tour?

I must say that the most disappointing thing (I did not know this previously) is that Sky is part of the Murdoch Empire. Great that he goes to support the most corrosive element to true journalism in existence.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Thoughtforfood said:
I must say that the most disappointing thing (I did not know this previously) is that Sky is part of the Murdoch Empire. Great that he goes to support the most corrosive element to true journalism in existence.
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did you not know... blimey.. satellite television probably made a large amount of his money for him in the nineties... to be fair to sky, they have invested billions in this country into sport.. they revolutionised football completely (yes made a lot of money from it, but football benefited) and many minor sports, darts etc have been completely transformed by skys investment.. they are already involved with the track team in a big way, this was a natural step.. i may not like murdochs principals (as a liverpool fan we still dont forget what the sun said after hillsborough, things that will never be forgiven), but his investment in sport in this country (and i beleive in australia and italy too where sky has intrests) is impressive

and hes a mod.. what does that have to do with ascot.. :D
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Thoughtforfood said:
This year he turns into an ascot wearing diva.
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It's 1960s garb. He's into indie music.

I must say that the most disappointing thing (I did not know this previously) is that Sky is part of the Murdoch Empire. Great that he goes to support the most corrosive element to true journalism in existence.
Click to expand...

You're going to pin that on him? :eek:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
He has a habit of saying things then apologising. I didn't like the way he apologised to Armstrong for saying he could beat him. Made him look like a bit of a pussy. That's why I suspect he may not have apologised as such - probably just sent an email to say no hard feelings, but Armstrong played it to his advantage by announcing Wiggins had apologised. But either way, I'm not going to hate the guy for it. That would be petty.

We need more love, not hate. :)
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
dimspace said:
did you not know... blimey.. satellite television probably made a large amount of his money for him in the nineties... to be fair to sky, they have invested billions in this country into sport.. they revolutionised football completely (yes made a lot of money from it, but football benefited) and many minor sports, darts etc have been completely transformed by skys investment.. they are already involved with the track team in a big way, this was a natural step.. i may not like murdochs principals (as a liverpool fan we still dont forget what the sun said after hillsborough, things that will never be forgiven), but his investment in sport in this country (and i beleive in australia and italy too where sky has intrests) is impressive

and hes a mod.. what does that have to do with ascot.. :D
Click to expand...

Honestly, I just hadn't paid that much attention to who they were. I knew they were media, and that they were associated with a lot of sporting events. I am not opposed to them for anything other than the brand of political "news" they promote. It has made everyone who watches dumber for the effort.

I am miffed at Wiggins mostly for the Wigan comment. I know he has a sharp wit, and that something like that is only relevant if there is an element of truth, but it is also something that, considering the role Garmin played in his rise, was hurtful to the team.

He should hope that he isn't sitting in 10th place or worse next year. It will make him look like a bit of a cad.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
it is interesting, that the ones who get all the flack for what they say, what they tweet, what they do, are the english speakers..

who knows what kinda crap LL sanchez, or oscar sevilla have come up with the spanish press, or what basso has had to say about people in italy.. we dont hear about it, or it gets translated so vaguely that we pay no attention..

the english speaking riders do have much more trouble with their words being over analysed and taken out of context, or blown up out of all proportion (especially by people for who english is not their first language)...

if brad was from kazahkstan or something, nobody would give him any grief over all this, or he would certainly get a lot less..

not racism or owt, just teh fact that the english speaking riders do get more press..



this role garmin played in his rise though..? i really do think that is exaggerated... most of the work done, on brads weight, brads temperament etc was done by the guys at BC.. not garmin..
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I think Jonathon Vaughters and Garmin are more hurt by reading innuendo that they doped riders at last years tour than some bad joke by Wiggins.

Lets hope nobody here has engaged in that type of smear.
 
P

pmcg76

Mar 6, 2009
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dimspace said:
it is interesting, that the ones who get all the flack for what they say, what they tweet, what they do, are the english speakers..

who knows what kinda crap LL sanchez, or oscar sevilla have come up with the spanish press, or what basso has had to say about people in italy.. we dont hear about it, or it gets translated so vaguely that we pay no attention..

the english speaking riders do have much more trouble with their words being over analysed and taken out of context, or blown up out of all proportion (especially by people for who english is not their first language)...

if brad was from kazahkstan or something, nobody would give him any grief over all this, or he would certainly get a lot less..

not racism or owt, just teh fact that the english speaking riders do get more press..



this role garmin played in his rise though..? i really do think that is exaggerated... most of the work done, on brads weight, brads temperament etc was done by the guys at BC.. not garmin..
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I wouldnt downplay the role of Garmin either, how many teams would have allowed Wiggins the freedom to take a shot at the Tour. I dont think any other team would have backed him as readily as Garmin did.

On one hand I am happy to see Sky have a GC contender even if I dont think Wiggins will ever go any better than this year. Breaking his contract to go to Sky to Garmin dont sit well with me even though I understand the pull of leading a British ProTour team. I know if I was manager of an Irish backed major pro team, I would be trying to get Deignan, Roche & Martin, contracted with other teams or not.
 
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