Will Astana Financial Collapse Lead To Armstrong Owning The Team?

[md2020]

The fact that Vino still denies ever doping, shows what an a$$ he is, but the same goes for Floyd, for whom many have sympathy.
When Valverde gets banned, and it looks increasingly like he will be soon, I would like to see him back once his time is served.
My 0.02$

I loved this quote CN had from Vino earlier this week:

"There is still a force, there is a desire, there is still a dream: to win the Tour de France and, most importantly, to restore my good name and prove that one and a half years ago I did not use any banned substance. I wan to prove that I can win without doping," Vinokourov told sports.kz

Why would he need to prove he can win without doping if he never doped?

 

[Zoncolan]

I loved this quote CN had from Vino earlier this week:

"There is still a force, there is a desire, there is still a dream: to win the Tour de France and, most importantly, to restore my good name and prove that one and a half years ago I did not use any banned substance. I wan to prove that I can win without doping," Vinokourov told sports.kz

Why would he need to prove he can win without doping if he never doped?

You missed my point. Of course he doped. I don't like the guy one bit.
All I'm saying is, if we allow others to serve a ban and return, we should let him do the same. The same set of rules should apply to all.
Personally, of all the guys that got caught, him and Ricco are the two I detest the most.

 

[Zoncolan]

He rode La Ruta de Conquistadors (sp?) last year...he did pretty good I think. Not sure if that's a comeback or not...

Thanks for that.
Apparently it's a mountain bike race in Panama.
Heras finished 7th overall at 1:23:08

 

[Anonymous]

i actually always liked vinny.. i thought some of his performances and his never give up attitude in 2006 especially where great.. the guy was a complete nutter on the bike who never knew when to stop..
Even 2007 the year of the test failure, he had carried on in the tour despite pretty bad injuries and gave it ago..
personally, i was especially saddened by the news that he had failed, i still find it strange that any rider would do something so stupid, but i guess hes not the first to do something idiotic..
but for attitude, tenacity, and sheer never say die attitude i thought he was a great rider, and if he come back clean, with the same attitude and desire to win then good luck to him...

 

[md2020]

You missed my point. Of course he doped. I don't like the guy one bit.
All I'm saying is, if we allow others to serve a ban and return, we should let him do the same. The same set of rules should apply to all.
Personally, of all the guys that got caught, him and Ricco are the two I detest the most.

I didn't mean to imply that you liked Vino, I just thought the quote from him was funny. Strangely enough, I've always been a fan of Vino, but at the same time was not surprised at all that he tested positive. I almost expected it.

I agree with you that he should be given the same treatment as the others who have served their bans. He did his time and should be given a second chance. These guys should be able to get another chance to pursue the job that they've put a lifetime of work into. That said, once they're back any further positive is it for life... "no soup for you."

 

[Escarabajo]

Thanks for that.
Apparently it's a mountain bike race in Panama.
Heras finished 7th overall at 1:23:08

Race in Costa Rica, not Panama.

 

[flyor64]

Thanks for that.
Apparently it's a mountain bike race in Panama.
Heras finished 7th overall at 1:23:08

Costa Rica...but just north of Panama. It's a pretty insane mtb stage race...with some sick climbs...7th aint bad all things considered

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

The same set of rules should apply to all.

We're saying the same thing, you and I.

The same rules however do not apply to all.

Look up the cases I listed. Some riders get less than two years. Some get two years and can come back with a Pro Tour team right away (Basso, Scarponi, Perez), others, like Heras serves his suspension, is told the "4-years from riding on a ProTour team" applies to him. AND pressure is put on continental teams not to sign him. Why? Because he rode for Liberty Seguros and didn't make good with the UCI that's why.

Heras didn't flatly confess, but it's pretty easy to read between the lines when he talks about his case which he is pretty contrite about. After he lost his appeal and no team would offer him anything but a small contract, he said something to the fact that "I only wish they would acknowledge their mistakes in the way my case was handled, that's all". If you'll recall, his "B" sample of EPO went back and forth from unreadable to positive to negative back to positive - which was upheld through CAS and the courts.

Roberto has been riding in various charity events, and in races such as La Ruta mountain bike race. There was another in the desert somewhere, and he got 2nd in the World Folding Bike championships, another charity ride in England last year. He says he'd like to comeback, but isn't bitter about being shut out of contracts or blaming anyone. He's actually quite modest. There's an interview with him in Spanish on YT if I can find it.

Regarding Vino not only was he caught doping - and his case had no inconsistencies - he constantly denies it, and was also doping with T-Mobile when they had a systematic team-doping program. He should not be allowed to sign with a Pro Tour team - though he says he should. He should have to pay the annual salary penalty, as he signed the Anti-Doping charter. I'm not saying others shouldn't. Kashekin, Ricco, Peipoli, Schumacher, Rasmussen, they all signed it (it was before Roberto's case, so he didn't). They should all have to pay. But Vino says he shouldn't have to pay, and will sue the UCI if they try to get him to pay it.

 

[The GCW]

From Velo News

"""The Livestrong Foundation has released a statement clarifying that it would be unable to take over sponsorship of the team.

"Lance’s goal in returning to professional cycling is to raise awareness of the global cancer burden," the statement reads. "The prospect of a world-class team joining the Livestrong Global Cancer Campaign and driving the broader cancer message is incredible. While as a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization, the Lance Armstrong Foundation would not be able to fund the day-to-day operational expenses of a for-profit endeavor, we would certainly look for ways to develop a dynamic partnership to support the cancer mission and cancer survivors.” """

http://www.velonews.com/article/91702/armstrong-spokesman-the-team-will-start-in-astana-kit

 

[Anonymous]

"""The Livestrong Foundation has released a statement clarifying that it would be unable to take over sponsorship of the team.

"Lance’s goal in returning to professional cycling is to raise awareness of the global cancer burden," the statement reads. "The prospect of a world-class team joining the Livestrong Global Cancer Campaign and driving the broader cancer message is incredible. While as a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization, the Lance Armstrong Foundation would not be able to fund the day-to-day operational expenses of a for-profit endeavor, we would certainly look for ways to develop a dynamic partnership to support the cancer mission and cancer survivors.” """

http://www.velonews.com/article/91702/armstrong-spokesman-the-team-will-start-in-astana-kit

but some of the financial supporters could bankroll astana and allow the livestrong guys coverage to raise awareness...

if company a donates $2m to livestrong, livestrong cannot use that to fund a profit making cycling team.. if combany b) gives $2m to the cycling team, the cycling team can donate kit space for sponsorship on behalf of livestrong...

if the cylcing team does make a profit (which is almost unheard of), but as a profit aiming venture arguably it could, then the shareholder would no doubt donate to livestrong..

basically the statement from livestrong is fairly pointless.. well pointless except to possibly confirm what we already are thinking, that livestrong will have a "relationship" with either lances new team, or possibly the replacement sponsors of astana, if astana's financial woes continue..

 

[whiteboytrash]

the Lance Armstrong Foundation would not be able to fund the day-to-day operational expenses of a for-profit endeavor, we would certainly look for ways to develop a dynamic partnership to support the cancer mission and cancer survivors.” """
l]

- But it will pay for Lance to fly all over the world it his private jet. Are you f+rking kidding me ? It can't fund the team ? Come on. Get the logo on the jersey and start paying the staff.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

- Get the logo on the jersey and start paying the staff.

That won't happen. At least not like Dim points out.

They're first going to try to use OPM (other people's money) to find a sucker big enough who thinks it would be good to invest in cycling now. Failing that, Lance will find a way to pay himself, at least to keep the team going through the Tour so he can try to win it. That right there could very well put them in MellowJohnny/Livestrong jerseys, we all just call "Team Livestrong".

His living like a miser is a secondary issue.

 

[Zoncolan]

We're saying the same thing, you and I.

The same rules however do not apply to all.

Look up the cases I listed. Some riders get less than two years. Some get two years and can come back with a Pro Tour team right away (Basso, Scarponi, Perez), others, like Heras serves his suspension, is told the "4-years from riding on a ProTour team" applies to him. AND pressure is put on continental teams not to sign him. Why? Because he rode for Liberty Seguros and didn't make good with the UCI that's why.

Heras didn't flatly confess, but it's pretty easy to read between the lines when he talks about his case which he is pretty contrite about. After he lost his appeal and no team would offer him anything but a small contract, he said something to the fact that "I only wish they would acknowledge their mistakes in the way my case was handled, that's all". If you'll recall, his "B" sample of EPO went back and forth from unreadable to positive to negative back to positive - which was upheld through CAS and the courts.

Roberto has been riding in various charity events, and in races such as La Ruta mountain bike race. There was another in the desert somewhere, and he got 2nd in the World Folding Bike championships, another charity ride in England last year. He says he'd like to comeback, but isn't bitter about being shut out of contracts or blaming anyone. He's actually quite modest. There's an interview with him in Spanish on YT if I can find it.

Regarding Vino not only was he caught doping - and his case had no inconsistencies - he constantly denies it, and was also doping with T-Mobile when they had a systematic team-doping program. He should not be allowed to sign with a Pro Tour team - though he says he should. He should have to pay the annual salary penalty, as he signed the Anti-Doping charter. I'm not saying others shouldn't. Kashekin, Ricco, Peipoli, Schumacher, Rasmussen, they all signed it (it was before Roberto's case, so he didn't). They should all have to pay. But Vino says he shouldn't have to pay, and will sue the UCI if they try to get him to pay it.

I would agree with everything you say, but for one thing...
Landis still denies having done any wrong, yet you wish him all the best.

If it were up to me, one strike would be enough. Especially after Festina '98.
As for other guys not getting equal treatment, it's the UCI, and as the great Le Mond says, they're corrupt

Costa Rica-Panama thing. My bad. No intention to insult anyone by my lack of geography knowledge.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

You're of course right on Lemond, and the UCI, and everything else.

I should point out that I'm mostly wishing Landis can get his life straightened out and remains clean in his cycling career. There are many more racers I'd like to see perform well before him.

 

[wiggintona]

Enough already

stop with this political bull crap this a cycling circus, not a political one if you want to talk politics go to the cnn forum not this one I don't care about Republican or Democrat I care about cycling

Thanks for saying it so clearly. There are several threads for the "Lance Haters", doping, etc., It would be nice if we could stay on topic. But since we are off it does anyone know a good counselor who can help Brodeal, Alpe d'Huez and a few others with their Lance bashing problem.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Sorry to drag this back up, but it's the news reporting by this site, that is to blame.
Frankly, I was surprised to read that JB owned the Astana license, as reported, here, 2 days ago.
That report was in error.
It is held by the Kazakh Fed and the irrefutable proof of this, can be found, here:-
http://www.uciprotour.com/Modules/E...sp?MenuId=MTY5NA&LangId=1&1603218X08X47Page=3

So, JB does not "own" a PT license and it is definite that Vino is returning to the team, this summer. This is being widely reported.
At which point, the financial tap will be turned back on.

Quite clearly, all of this and more, have been going on behind the scene, for months. Arrangements are almost certainly, already in place.

Which begs the question......again, where is JB going to get his hands upon this PT license?

 

[El Imbatido]

Sorry to drag this back up, but it's the news reporting by this site, that is to blame.
Frankly, I was surprised to read that JB owned the Astana license, as reported, here, 2 days ago.
That report was in error.
It is held by the Kazakh Fed and the irrefutable proof of this, can be found, here:-
http://www.uciprotour.com/Modules/E...sp?MenuId=MTY5NA&LangId=1&1603218X08X47Page=3

So, JB does not "own" a PT license and it is definite that Vino is returning to the team, this summer. This is being widely reported.
At which point, the financial tap will be turned back on.

Quite clearly, all of this and more, have been going on behind the scene, for months. Arrangements are almost certainly, already in place.

Which begs the question......again, where is JB going to get his hands upon this PT license?

woah!! hold up a minute, i might have missed something earlier in the thread and im not gonna re-read the whole thread again. Just a couple of Q's.

1. Vino signed the charter, so why cant the UCI make it that if you dont sign and abide by these rules you wont be allowed to ride in the protour/uci events.

2. I thought JB had it in his contract or whatever sort of agreement he has with astana, that he would not have to resign Vino or Kashykin when there suspensions end. So what would they do. Turf JB out?

3. I think i read back earlier in the thread that some of the kazak backers are holding out. What are the reasons for this. Economic?, Run out of money?, Not a kazak team anymore with JB, LA , AC and the LL show? I thought it would again be in some sort of agreement that they cant just pull out at any second and leave the team high and dry?

4. If it is just a matter of replenishing the 'untouchable 2 mil' why cant LA just pitch it in fo now. His appearance fees are about that arent they? Or is there something more sinister, like him watching the team callapse and then stepping in and taking over, for the benefit of himself and his agendas?

5. Even if LA was to start his own team, he cant just walk up to the UCI and just buy a licence, and then compete in the worlds biggest and best races. Right?

 

[180mmCrank]

I think the confusion is caused by the fact that Bruyneel owns (or at least controls) Olympus Sarl, a Luxembourg company that owns the team’s infrastructure and it's my understanding holds contracts with the riders, the non-Kazakh sponsors, and the Kazakhstan cycling federation for a title sponsorship under the name Astana. The federation, meanwhile, pays Olympus Sarl with money it receives from a consortium of Kazakh companies. Those companies are unwilling or unable to pay the federation, which has in turn put Olympus Sarl in financial straits.

And indeed on the UCI Astana team page it references Olympus Sarl as the registered address of Astana

http://www.uciprotour.com/Modules/S...s/UCI/UCI2/layout.asp?MenuId=MTU2MTU&LangId=1

But Maertens was pretty unequivocal in his statement, "I don't think that we have the right to change the name of the team [now]," he said. "After all, the ProTour licence is the property of the Kazahks, not of us."

And I agree it is not entirely clear how JB will aquire a licence going forward

 

[Anonymous]

I think the confusion is caused by the fact that Bruyneel owns (or at least controls) Olympus Sarl, a Luxembourg company that owns the team’s infrastructure and it's my understanding holds contracts with the riders, the non-Kazakh sponsors, and the Kazakhstan cycling federation for a title sponsorship under the name Astana. The federation, meanwhile, pays Olympus Sarl with money it receives from a consortium of Kazakh companies. Those companies are unwilling or unable to pay the federation, which has in turn put Olympus Sarl in financial straits.

And indeed on the UCI Astana team page it references Olympus Sarl as the registered address of Astana

http://www.uciprotour.com/Modules/S...s/UCI/UCI2/layout.asp?MenuId=MTU2MTU&LangId=1

But Maertens was pretty unequivocal in his statement, "I don't think that we have the right to change the name of the team [now]," he said. "After all, the ProTour licence is the property of the Kazahks, not of us."

And I agree it is not entirely clear how JB will aquire a licence going forward

but without JB they have nothing either.. he owns the cars, the staff, the lot as far as i can gather.. all the khazaks have is the licence and the money.. and they dont even have the money at the moment..

 

[Mellow Velo]

Doesn't anybody feel, like me, there's a game of "chicken" being played out here?

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Just to clear things up: The Kazakh Cycling Federation holds Astana's ProTour license. We have corrected our earlier statement that Bruyneel holds it.

Susan

 

[Bala Verde]

It was mentioned before i think, the fact that with the Liberty Seguros and Discovery collapse, the UCI wanted to safeguard the quality of the competition, and was quick to follow passing out pro tour licenses. From this perspective, the UCI is backed against the wall, and the Kazakhs know it, and hence seem to exploit it.

1)UCI does not want Astana to fold, because that implies that AC, LA and LL might not be able to do the TdF and perhaps the giro. Or letting such a strong team collapse, is not a good sign for the stability the UCI wants to exude. A major blow for both races, the UCI and cycling in general.

2)the Kazakhs find that Vino's suspension is done with, and thus deserves a second chance. In other words, he should not be treated like a leper, when others have been able to succesfully return to the sport.

Could it be a tit for tat strategy, 'you give us what we want, and we'll give you what you want'? In this case, it's the Kazakhs pulling the strings threatening to pull the plug from Astana.

 

[Anonymous]

personally i think they will reach agreement that vinny will return, and then come december JB will ****** off with his cars, his bikes, his mechanics and the american sponsors and leave the khazaks with vinny a second hand trek bike and a bunch of money..

 

[bianchigirl]

Of course there's always the possibility that, in return for the 2 million, the Kazahk Federation will tell Bruyneel et al to sod off - after all, he has been responsible for allowing the team to be hijacked and the Kazakh riders totally sidelined. They hold the all important license - the one Armstrong keeps demanding they hand over - without his plans will come to nothing this season. The KF have the ultimate power over what happens as Astana, not Bruyneel - 2 million is a small price to pay to get 'their' team back. Oh, and Kash comes back in the autumn...

Unfortunately for Armstrong & Bruyneel, they don't holds the aces here - the KF do.

Susan - I was somewhat surprised that CN made the mistake of assuming Bruyneel held the license as a quick check on the UCI website was all the factchecking required.

 

[BikeCentric]

Of course there's always the possibility that, in return for the 2 million, the Kazahk Federation will tell Bruyneel et al to sod off - after all, he has been responsible for allowing the team to be hijacked and the Kazakh riders totally sidelined. They hold the all important license - the one Armstrong keeps demanding they hand over - without his plans will come to nothing this season. The KF have the ultimate power over what happens as Astana, not Bruyneel - 2 million is a small price to pay to get 'their' team back. Oh, and Kash comes back in the autumn...

Unfortunately for Armstrong & Bruyneel, they don't holds the aces here - the KF do.

Susan - I was somewhat surprised that CN made the mistake of assuming Bruyneel held the license as a quick check on the UCI website was all the factchecking required.

It appears that the Kazahks hold all the cards in this little game, and Armstrong's bully pulpit with the Western media means nothing to them. Lord Armstrong the Great will be defeated by Borat!