Will Chris Boardman be on the French list for taking EPO.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

what's the deal with Boardman being seemingly beyond reproach even in the clinic? it's fascinating to me considering he would demolish any current rider.

Not sure any pro rider is.

But when claims are made or conclusions drawn from incorrect information, or a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of facts (whether deliberate or otherwise) then it makes sense to correct the mistakes.

That then leaves one to ponder the valid information and draw conclusions from that.

Once someone resorts to using invalid information to prop up their "position", then it tends to devalue their entire argument. If however they used valid information only, then their "position" will be more plausibly presented, or they might in fact end up drawing a different conclusion when they realise or admit their error.

If people are going to debate the doping status of any rider, then the least one should expect is that the "evidence" being considered for this pub chat speculation be valid.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

This 90% stuff is what I find hard to believe, what I've mostly read/heard is 0.8 ratio between CP5 (MAP/VO2max) and CP60 (threshold power/FTP), which matches very well in my own case (now at 42 y.o as well as when I was 25).
Is there something I don't get ?

90% is at the upper end but what you would expect from a trained professional, especially one specialising in such efforts.

This sort of value of O2 uptake has been reported in the literature a few times, e.g. Lucia et al reported prolonged periods of exercise at 90% of VO2max was common during stage races for uphill sections and TTs.

If I compare my threshold power and VO2max levels, I was running in the 85-90% of VO2max range at threshold and I was not even close to pro level physiology.

Different riders have different power profiles - which is a reflection of their physiological characteristics and also their fitness level. Some will have a wider gap than others, that's normal.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Pink cells = EPO positive, each "Serie Labo" is a race day
(ie 29/07 is the prologue, 32/07 stage 1 etc.). That matches the info from L'Equipe who leaked Jalabert was positive on stage 11 with 94.8% (serie 163/07)
Stage 8 is interesting with every rider testing positive which give us at least 1 name, the stage winner J.Durand and the yellow jersey... but is it the new yellow jersey (Desbiens) or the former (Ullrich) ? I don't know which one was tested. Same thing for stage 6 which means Cippo and O'Grady are done

Is this confirmed anywhere?

If so, all four riders tested on stage 2 took epo or is there a way someone could be having 17.6 of r_epo isoforms in his blood without taking the magic potion?

Also the 'autoradio' is strange. Do you know what that means?

 

[jw1979]

22.6% is smack bang in the middle of normal for trained cyclists (e.g. 21.5-24.5% for professional road cyclists as reported by Mujika & Padilla).

While an inverse relationship has been reported between VO2max and efficiency (e.g. as reported by Lucia et al), it doesn't mean it's an absolute rule (ref Jeukendrup, Martin et al who question the link).

If anything, evidence is mounting to show efficiency increases during a professional cyclist's career (e.g. as reported by Santalla et al).

cool, thanks for the info on that.

i know you have quite a bit of info about Boardman, thanks for chiming in on this thread.

what about the fact his MAP would be about 25% (about 120w) higher than his VO2max power if he is indeed holding 90% of VO2max for his FTP. would you typically expect such anaerobic power from someone who can hold an exceptionally high percentage of their VO2max for an hour?

 

[Gregga]

Is this confirmed anywhere?

If so, all four riders tested on stage 2 took epo or is there a way someone could be having 17.6 of r_epo isoforms in his blood without taking the magic potion?

Also the 'autoradio' is strange. Do you know what that means?

The only 'official' confirmation is the leak from L'équipe, Jalabert positive / 94.8% / stage 11 http://velorooms.com/files/leuipe-jaja.pdf which matches the AFLD table

For me 'auroradio' means "visual positive", when the gel examination clearly shows the presence of r-EPO (the "A" row name is "interprétation visuelle"). For very low value of isoform as 17.6, I don't know.

 

[Bumeington]

On the other hand, a TT position lowers wattage, doesn't it?

Not if you're a great tt'er imo

 

[acoggan]

Hey, Coggan! What makes you think a woman can do 5.69 W/kg at FTP?

I think that because:

1) it is in keeping with data from men*, and

2) it's been done, and by someone with a reputation roughly comparable to, e.g., LeMond or Boardman (indeed, I know of one woman who has done back-to-back ~1 h climbs @ 5.4 W/kg in training).

*5.69 W/kg is 11% lower than 6.40 W/kg, i.e., consistent with the typical 10-15% difference between men and women in various measures of athletic performance. OTOH, a VO2max of "only" 73 mL/min/kg as you assumed is >20% lower than the highest values ever reported for men.

One other factor to keep in mind: the purpose of the power profiling tables (from which you obtained the 5.69 W/kg value) is to aid identification of an individual rider's relative strengths/weaknesses. To that end, the precise values you use as benchmarks aren't really critical, i.e., it matters little to evaluating someone's power profile whether the "anchor" value at the top of each column is exactly right - only if they were markedly off relative to each other might things become distorted to the point that incorrect conclusions would be drawn. (None of which is to say that better methods might not be available in the future. )

 

[acoggan]

what I've mostly read/heard is 0.8 ratio between CP5 (MAP/VO2max) and CP60 (threshold power/FTP)

Power @ 100% of VO2max and 5 min power aren't necessarily the same thing.

 

[acoggan]

so lets agree he can do 442w for an hour, based on his coach at the time, fine with me, because we all know AndyC can argue onto infinity .

Why shouldn't I, when I am confident of my position?

his Maximum Aerobic Power tests (+20w per minute ramp, starting at about 300w for him) have been documented as ending at the last minute's average being just north of 600w. lets say 605w since i've not heard an exact number other than "just above 600w".

i'll give the benefit of the doubt that his MAP is on the high end of normal above his VO2max, so let's say 15% above it. MAP at 605w that is 15% above a VO2max nets 526w. suddenly his FTP is 84% of his VO2max, which seems more reasonable to me.

of course, this just takes his percentage of VO2max he can hold for an hour from being "not normal" to his actual VO2max being "not normal".

Boardman was World Champion/World Record holder in the pursuit...I'd wager that his MAP was >15% above his power at VO2max.

 

[simo1733]

Grasping at straws again.

Was that during ANY of his wins or during races? I'm not sure. Please post proof that he did so during a race.

If Wonderboy and his band of merry idiots couldn't find anything on Greg(for the sum of $300k), then the topic should be a memory. Has Wonderboy or anyone backed up that story or brought it to light about LeMond? Why not? Probably because it never effected a race or was taken during a race.

Boardman STILL took an illegal(at the time) PED during racing for what was it a year? HIM not getting an exemption kinda proves what I said. I'm sorry that he
had osteoperosis, he should've retired then instead of going on.

From what i've read he didn't take testosterone and he did retire because of osteoperosis.

 

[andy1234]

From what i've read he didn't take testosterone and he did retire because of osteoperosis.

No need to reply to 86TFDWeiner, he knows he was wrong and is currently sulking on the naughty step.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

*5.69 W/kg is 11% lower than 6.40 W/kg, i.e., consistent with the typical 10-15% difference between men and women in various measures of athletic performance. OTOH, a VO2max of "only" 73 mL/min/kg as you assumed is >20% lower than the highest values ever reported for men.

73 ml/min/kg is a HIGH VO2 max for a woman. The difference between men and women is not 10-15%, but around 20%.

A quick googling:

A natural question to ask is: do men and women differ with respect to these three traits? For VO2max, the answer is yes. The average VO2max is about 33 milliliters of oxygen per kilogram of body mass per minute for sedentary young women and around 42 ml/kg/min for sedentary young men (Bouchard et al., Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 30: 252-8, 1998). Elite female distance runners can sometimes reach VO2max readings of 70+ ml/kg/min (Pate et al., International Journal of Sports Medicine 8 (Suppl.): 91-5, 1987), whereas elite men can attain values in the 80s (Pollock, Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences 301: 310-22, 1977).

Some champion male distance runners (past examples include Derek Clayton and Frank Shorter) have VO2maxes of "only" 70 ml/kg/min, a value occasionally exceeded by elite women

However, it is possible that "an excellent value for one of the limiting factors [V02max, lactate threshold, and running economy] is mutually exclusive with another," Joyner speculates. If this is the case, "It might be more likely for some of the males with VO2max values in the low range for [elite] men to have outstanding running economy and lactate threshold values and, therefore, faster times in competition than a female competitor with the same VO2max."

http://faculty.washington.edu/crowther/Misc/RBC/gender.shtml

Using XC skiing as an example from here in Norway, the highest reliable values for VO2 max recorded in national team XC skiers are about 90 ml/min/kg. The very best Norwegian woman has been measured at 77 ml/min/kg, a 17% difference.

http://alfin2100.blogspot.se/2006/03/gender-difference-gap-that-will-not.html

Keep in mind that XC skiers score higher than runners or cyclists. There have been several guys with readings slightly above 90 and the male record is 96 (Daehlie). 77*1.2=92.4, so that is a ~20% difference or more. Also, norwegians are notorious for sky high VO2 max values (Oscar Svendsen 97, Arvesen 93 ) so I'd take any number coming out of Norway with a grain of salt.

The highest ever recorded VO2 max is 94 ml/kg/min in men and 77 ml/kg/min in women. Both were cross-country skiers (16).

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.html

The Norwegians have long been tops in this sport, and their athletes have recorded some of the highest ever VO2max scores. An article on http://www.fasterskier.com from 2005 listed a few of these: Espen Harald Bjerke tested at 96 ml/kg/min. Bjorn Daehlie had also achieved that score in the past. In recent testing (2005) the scores achieved were Hofstad – 92, Bjerke – 91, Gaustad – 87, Aukland – 88 and Svartedal – 83. (article on http://www.fasterskier.com, 10 Oct 2005)

http://www.topendsports.com/testing/results/vo2-max.htm

Marianne Vos' VO2 max is 72.8.

There is no way the gender gap in VO2 max is anywhere near ~11%.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

2) it's been done, and by someone with a reputation roughly comparable to, e.g., LeMond or Boardman (indeed, I know of one woman who has done in training).

What would she do on a doping program? Back-to-back ~1 h climbs @ 5.9 W/kg?

 

[acoggan]

What would she do on a doping program? Back-to-back ~1 h climbs @ 5.9 W/kg?

Possibly. It would depend on 1) her natural hematocrit, and 2) the degree to which she doped.

 

[acoggan]

73 ml/min/kg is a HIGH VO2 max for a woman.

Oh, no doubt, just as >80 mL/min/kg is a high VO2max for a man. Nonetheless, there are those who are higher still.

The difference between men and women is not 10-15%, but around 20%.

Sorry, but no (esp. when considering leaner-than-average female endurance athletes).

Marianne Vos' VO2 max is 72.8.

I'll take your word for that. However, given that 1) there's far more to performance than just VO2max, and 2) Vos' success has come in/extends to events other than, e.g., pure TTs, I don't think that really means anything in the present context.

There is no way the gender gap in VO2 max is anywhere near ~11%.

Again, on average the difference is 10-15%.

P.S. The highest VO2max I've personally ever measured/seen measured for a woman was ~80 mL/min/kg, recorded by a waif of a runner in our graduate program at UT-Austin (and since I rebuilt/validated the metabolic cart, I have confidence in the value).

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

How do you drop the world's best if your FTP is ~20% lower than the world's best?

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/03/tiffany-cromwells-omloop-het-nieuwsblad-power-analysis/

 

[jw1979]

apologies if i'm beating this to death, still trying to make it all work in my head.

for FTP of 442w and MAP of 605w (Alex/RST please chime in on this MAP value if you have the exact number and don't mind sharing). i come up with a CP of about 455w, and anaerobic work capacity of about 38.4 kjs.

i would expect this person to be able to sustain 491w for approximately 17 to 18 minutes. that is too long to sustain VO2max.

this same person should be able to sustain 519w for 10 minutes, or 535w for 8 minutes. in my ever-so-professional opinion, Boardman's VO2max was at least 520w, and probably closer to 535w. that would put his FTP at about 83-85% of his VO2max and his VO2max at 95-98 mL/kg.

while 95-98 mL/kg is a bit suspect to some, i don't find it all that impressive considering my siberian husky can easily surpass that, and he lives on two scoops of dry food a day and drinks water from the tap on our side yard.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Show me the evidence that the VO2 max gap is only 10-15%. The evidence suggests a female with a VO2 max in the mid 70's is just as freakish as a man with a VO2 max in the 90's.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

There have been reports of scores at 76-78. These are super rare and the female equivalent of the reported 94-97 scores for some males. What's the percentage difference?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Possibly. It would depend on 1) her natural hematocrit, and 2) the degree to which she doped.

So a doped woman would outclimb Lemond, Fignon and Hinault?

 

[acoggan]

http://www.topendsports.com/testing/results/vo2-max.htm

Interesting you mention this site...a few quotes:

score name sport notes
78.6 Joan Benoit distance running 1984 Olympic Marathon Champion
76.6 Bente Skari XC-skier
76.0 Flavia Oliveira Cycling Oliveira is a Brazilian National Team road cyclist and climbing specialist. This result was recorded during testing with Felicia Gomez at Pinnacle Training Systems in Fresno, California on Jan 21, 2012. (with thanks to Nathan Parks, Jan 2012)

"I have a recorded VO2 max from 1998 at the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine of 77.6 at the age 32 for cycling. (from Tammy Jacques, Oct 2012) - if accurate that would put her 2nd on the female list"

By comparison, Vos' VO2max of 73 seems almost pedestrian (well, not really, but hopefully my point is clear).

 

[acoggan]

Show me the evidence that the VO2 max gap is only 10-15%.

Not just VO2max; that's the typical difference in many measures, at least among athletes.

The evidence suggests a female with a VO2 max in the mid 70's is just as freakish as a man with a VO2 max in the 90's.

Mid-70s for a woman is not "freakish".

 

[acoggan]

So a doped woman would outclimb Lemond, Fignon and Hinault?

If she jumped into the end of a stage when they were already tired? Quite possibly, or at least keep up with them.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Not just VO2max; that's the typical difference in many measures, at least among athletes.

But we're discussing VO2 max, not any other measures, just VO2 max.

Again, what is the percentage difference between the highest recorded VO2 max scores for women (76-78) and men (94-97)? Please tell me.

Mid-70s for a woman is not "freakish".

If the highest scores on record are 76-78, then mid 70's is clearly freakish. You might as well be arguing that 94 is not freakish for a dude because you have scores at 96 and 97 and Lemond's 92 is totally pedestrian.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

If she jumped into the end of a stage when they were already tired? Quite possibly, or at least keep up with them.

Could they do 5.9 W/kg on back-back 1h climbs? No.