Will Chris Boardman be on the French list for taking EPO.

[acoggan]

oh, and heres the link to that article you asked for, addresses ALL of what i was talking about, you seemed to have trouble understanding. Pay close attention to the part where the article notes it was CLEARLY a banned substance, yet he was getting testosterone treatments every 2 months for 2 years, while still riding as a pro, mmkay, happy reading:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/d...-BOARDMAN-I-cycling-32-I-bones-old-woman.html

Since I have low BMD myself, I was curious enough to read the article. Based on what is stated therein, Boardman did NOT receive testosterone therapy while still racing. Instead, he opted for bisphosphonates: "Chris was prescribed drug treatment that arrests the natural destruction of old bone cells and allows the creation of new cells to catch up. During the final two years of his career he received treatment intravenously every two months at the Royal Liverpool hospital."

EDIT: And now I see that Alex has already corrected the record...but, at least I might be able to add this: as implied by the article, bisphosphonates are not, and never have been, on the banned drug list.

 

[jw1979]

445-460w for an hour at 67-70kgs. if someone did that today everybody would claim it blatantly obvious they were doping, and not just doping, but DOPING!

whether or not he ends up on the list, lets not be fools about what was going on.

 

[acoggan]

445-460w for an hour at 67-70kgs.

Keen estimates that Boardman averaged 442 W (@ 69 kg).

if someone did that today everybody would claim it blatantly obvious they were doping

Not everybody.

 

[Gregga]

Keen estimates that Boardman averaged 442 W (@ 69 kg).

442w for threshold power for 69kg is 6,4 w/kg and that's a lot, but don't forget it was achieved fresh and after several days of tapering and so that it's got nothing to do with 6,4 w/kg at the end of a mountain stage in the third week of the TdF as LA or Pantani could do 10 or 15 years ago.

But that's still a lot, because it's 60', not 30 or 40 as most of the uphill finish and IMO just above what can be done fresh by a top athlete even if his name is Boardman, so I'm still doubtful, but I'm afraid the 1998 samples retest won't answer any question about Boardman. For me he used EPO only once, in 1996 just for the level playing field.

 

[pmcg76]

I'm afraid we'll never know : for the 98 TdF prologue 2 samples out of 3 are missing, the third one is only "visually" positive, without any threshold value.

EDIT : stage 1 : 3 positives (1 above threshold, 1 under, one "visual") 1 negative... Where is Chris ?

Interesting, stage 1 winner was Tom Steels, so Steels, Boardman and would it be two others at random???

Jalabert tested positive for EPO but he didn't win a stage or wear the yellow jersey. Must have been tested randomly.

People have mentioned Jens Voigt elsewhere but again unless he was tested randomly, he didn't win a stage or wear yellow. Stuey O'Grady is the only other rider from that Tour still competing and he would have been tested 4 times at least, 1 stage win and 3 days MJ.

Also people talking about Boardman laying of the EPO etc, there was no such thing as glow time back then as there was no EPO test. If he took EPO it will show up as long as the samples are usable. He was only in the race 2 days before crashing out anyways.

Finally, thanks to those who took this this thread way off topic Thankfully I skipped most of it. Apology noted DBLP.

 

[pmcg76]

442w for threshold power for 69kg is 6,4 w/kg and that's a lot, but don't forget it was achieved fresh and after several days of tapering and so that it's got nothing to do with 6,4 w/kg at the end of a mountain stage in the third week of the TdF as LA or Pantani could do 10 or 15 years ago.

But that's still a lot, because it's 60', not 30 or 40 as most of the uphill finish and IMO just above what can be done fresh by a top athlete even if his name is Boardman, so I'm still doubtful, but I'm afraid the 1998 samples retest won't answer any question about Boardman. For me he used EPO only once, in 1996 just for the level playing field.

Gregga, where did you source your info on those test's?

 

[DirtyWorks]

442w for threshold power for 69kg is 6,4 w/kg and that's a lot, but don't forget it was achieved fresh and after several days of tapering and so that it's got nothing to do with 6,4 w/kg at the end of a mountain stage in the third week of the TdF as LA or Pantani could do 10 or 15 years ago.

This is VERY important to remember when using W/Kilo as a metric!

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

This is VERY important to remember when using W/Kilo as a metric!

Plus the effect of altitude.

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/52412273102/altitude-6-watts-onna-boar-continued

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

On the other hand, a TT position lowers wattage, doesn't it?

 

[Le breton]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/d...-BOARDMAN-I-cycling-32-I-bones-old-woman.html

Thanks for pointing to that article: i suffer from osteopenia therefore I am interested. However I am 30 years older than Boardman and I don't believe I have had that condition for that many years. The specialists who saw me didn't mention low testosterone as a possible cause and I am using bisphosphonates.

I have noticed that French medical authorities do not seem to put much faith in the value of bisphophonates as the "Sécurité Sociale" stopped reimbursing the most (or 2nd most) prescribed such product recently.

 

[Le breton]

Keen estimates that Boardman averaged 442 W (@ 69 kg).

Keen also estimates Boardman mechanical efficiency at 22.6%, which means that with 1 liter O2 per min. he produces about 350 watts times 0.226 = 79 mech. watts. (sometimes you read 21.3 kJ per liter O2 <==> 21.3/60 ==> 355 watts, 80.2 mech. watts instead of 79)

442 watts/ 79 watts ==> 5.594 liters O2/min. = 81 ml/mn.kg

If he could stay at 90% of VO2 max for 60 min. he would have needed a VO2 max of 90 ml/mn.kg.

So, we are close to the limit of what is doable cleanly for a top athlete, not above the limit.

 

[Gregga]

Gregga, where did you source your info on those test's?

Do you mean the 98/99 samples re-tests ?
The french lab sent them to the usada during the Armstrong investigation.
It's here http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Annex+1.pdf
Pink cells = EPO positive, each "Serie Labo" is a race day (ie 29/07 is the prologue, 32/07 stage 1 etc.). That matches the info from L'Equipe who leaked Jalabert was positive on stage 11 with 94.8% (serie 163/07)
Stage 8 is interesting with every rider testing positive which give us at least 1 name, the stage winner J.Durand and the yellow jersey... but is it the new yellow jersey (Desbiens) or the former (Ullrich) ? I don't know which one was tested. Same thing for stage 6 which means Cippo and O'Grady are done

 

[pmcg76]

Do you mean the 98/99 samples re-tests ?
The french lab sent them to the usada during the Armstrong investigation.
It's here http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Annex+1.pdf
Pink cells = EPO positive, each "Serie Labo" is a race day (ie 29/07 is the prologue, 32/07 stage 1 etc.). That matches the info from L'Equipe who leaked Jalabert was positive on stage 11 with 94.8% (serie 163/07)
Stage 8 is interesting with every rider testing positive which give us at least 1 name, the stage winner J.Durand and the yellow jersey... but is it the new yellow jersey (Desbiens) or the former (Ullrich) ? I don't know which one was tested. Same thing for stage 6 which means Cippo and O'Grady are done

Ok, thanks. I think that would be the new yellow jersey Desbiens. Good job on figuring it out. O'Grady will be worried about this coming out during the Tour I guess.

 

[acoggan]

Keen also estimates Boardman mechanical efficiency at 22.6%, which means that with 1 liter O2 per min. he produces about 350 watts times 0.226 = 79 mech. watts. (sometimes you read 21.3 kJ per liter O2 <==> 21.3/60 ==> 355 watts, 80.2 mech. watts instead of 79)

442 watts/ 79 watts ==> 5.594 liters O2/min. = 81 ml/mn.kg

If he could stay at 90% of VO2 max for 60 min. he would have needed a VO2 max of 90 ml/mn.kg.

So, we are close to the limit of what is doable cleanly for a top athlete, not above the limit.

Yes, that (i.e., that Boardman maintained 90% of his 90 mL/min/kg VO2max, or a VO2 of 81 mL/min/kg) is precisely what Keen concluded. Only difference would appear to be is that you've had to extrapolate Boardman's VO2max, whereas Keen knew it.

Note that Keen also estimated that Obree maintained a VO2 of (IIRC) 78 mL/min/kg, i.e., only slightly less than Boardman. This estimate is clearly less precise, though, as he apparently relied upon knowing how much Boardman benefited from using Obree's position.

 

[Gregga]

Yes, that (i.e., that Boardman maintained 90% of his 90 mL/min/kg VO2max, or a VO2 of 81 mL/min/kg) is precisely what Keen concluded. Only difference would appear to be is that you've had to extrapolate Boardman's VO2max, whereas Keen knew it.

Note that Keen also estimated that Obree maintained a VO2 of (IIRC) 78 mL/min/kg, i.e., only slightly less than Boardman. This estimate is clearly less precise, though, as he apparently relied upon knowing how much Boardman benefited from using Obree's position.

This 90% stuff is what I find hard to believe, what I've mostly read/heard is 0.8 ratio between CP5 (MAP/VO2max) and CP60 (threshold power/FTP), which matches very well in my own case (now at 42 y.o as well as when I was 25).
Is there something I don't get ?

 

[andy1234]

This 90% stuff is what I find hard to believe, what I've mostly read/heard is 0.8 ratio between CP5 (MAP/VO2max) and CP60 (threshold power/FTP), which matches very well in my own case (now at 42 y.o as well as when I was 25).
Is there something I don't get ?

90% is exceptional but achievable by an elite athlete.
It's also worth noting that there was more to that superman position than just aero.
It was easier to breath in that position, and allowed also you to brace your upper body and lower back, giving a better mechanical efficiency.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Hey, Coggan! What makes you think a woman can do 5.69 W/kg at FTP? A VO2 max of 73, LT at 90% and 80 watts per litre will give you ~5.25 W/kg. 5.6 sounds like a fantasy.

 

[jw1979]

90% is exceptional but achievable by an elite athlete.
It's also worth noting that there was more to that superman position than just aero.
It was easier to breath in that position, and allowed also you to brace your upper body and lower back, giving a better mechanical efficiency.

so lets agree he can do 442w for an hour, based on his coach at the time, fine with me, because we all know AndyC can argue onto infinity . his Maximum Aerobic Power tests (+20w per minute ramp, starting at about 300w for him) have been documented as ending at the last minute's average being just north of 600w. lets say 605w since i've not heard an exact number other than "just above 600w".

i'll give the benefit of the doubt that his MAP is on the high end of normal above his VO2max, so let's say 15% above it. MAP at 605w that is 15% above a VO2max nets 526w. suddenly his FTP is 84% of his VO2max, which seems more reasonable to me.

of course, this just takes his percentage of VO2max he can hold for an hour from being "not normal" to his actual VO2max being "not normal".

 

[Berzin]

Chris Boardman suffered from osteoporosis in combination with a low hormone profile. Instead of going on a medically-approved steroid program, he decided it was best to retire.

No way he's on the this upcoming list.

 

[jw1979]

Chris Boardman suffered from osteoporosis in combination with a low hormone profile. Instead of going on a medically-approved steroid program, he decided it was best to retire.

No way he's on the this upcoming list.

what's the deal with Boardman being seemingly beyond reproach even in the clinic? it's fascinating to me considering he would demolish any current rider.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

what's the deal with Boardman being seemingly beyond reproach even in the clinic? it's fascinating to me considering he would demolish any current rider.

If you believe that Boardman is beyond reproach you haven't been reading this thread very well.

 

[jw1979]

If you believe that Boardman is beyond reproach you haven't been reading this thread very well.

oh ok. 22 pages can get a bit tedious.

how does 22.6% mechanical efficiency stack up to the norm? i think i read somewhere that typically as VO2max goes up efficiency tend to decrease. is that right?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

On the other hand, a TT position lowers wattage, doesn't it?

Not necessarily. My best sustainable power for both 4-5 minutes and for 30-minutes was done in a TT position. I didn't have many TTs of about an hour to make that comparison.

 

[BroDeal]

I don't see why he would take EPO then quit because he could not get a TUE for testosterone.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

how does 22.6% mechanical efficiency stack up to the norm? i think i read somewhere that typically as VO2max goes up efficiency tend to decrease. is that right?

22.6% is smack bang in the middle of normal for trained cyclists (e.g. 21.5-24.5% for professional road cyclists as reported by Mujika & Padilla).

While an inverse relationship has been reported between VO2max and efficiency (e.g. as reported by Lucia et al), it doesn't mean it's an absolute rule (ref Jeukendrup, Martin et al who question the link).

If anything, evidence is mounting to show efficiency increases during a professional cyclist's career (e.g. as reported by Santalla et al).