Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

[sniper]

thanks flor,
but not clear from that statement is who sent the polygraph data to Dr. Palmatier?
did CAS order the independent review or did AC's team order it?
the notion 'independent' is used very flexible these days.

 

[Merckx index]

The problem with polygraph tests is they can be unreliable because of the 1. underlying assumptions about physiological arousal, 2. the questioning technique used, 3. their subjectivity, 4. and counter-measures that can disguise physiological arousal and 5 the experience and skill of the examiner in analyzing the results. Their results are inadmissible as evidence in courts.

Can you imagine Armstrong not beating a polygraph test with ease?

 

[neineinei]

thanks flor,
but not clear from that statement is who sent the polygraph data to Dr. Palmatier?
did CAS order the independent review or did AC's team order it?
the notion 'independent' is used very flexible these days.

Polygraph tests are inadmissable under Swiss law, so why would CAS bother with it? It was of course AC's team who ordered the independent review. Polygraph tests are only done for PR purposes. Smoke, mirrors and polygraphs. "There is no way I can prove I am clean, you will have to take my word for it, and here is the polygrahp test that proves I am honest, please ignore all the half truths and lies I have told."

 

[sniper]

Polygraph tests are inadmissable under Swiss law, so why would CAS bother with it? It was of course AC's team who ordered the independent review.

that's what i figured.

Polygraph tests are only done for PR purposes. Smoke, mirrors and polygraphs.

my thoughts about it as well.

 

[Nathan12]

If you don't believe you've done anything wrong, surely it's impossibly to fail a lie detector test.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Polygraph tests are inadmissable under Swiss law, so why would CAS bother with it? It was of course AC's team who ordered the independent review. Polygraph tests are only done for PR purposes. Smoke, mirrors and polygraphs. "There is no way I can prove I am clean, you will have to take my word for it, and here is the polygrahp test that proves I am honest, please ignore all the half truths and lies I have told."

Why would CAS accept it as part of the defence if it's inadmissable?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Only Dr Rovner. At the hearing the results were also studied by an independent expert, who also concluded he was speaking the truth.

Well that may be but so what? It does not detract from the fact that the results of a polygraph are unreliable in legal proceedings for the reasons I gave in post #2375.

What the polygraph purports to do is proclaim the truthfulness of a person which is really the job of the national anti-doping arbitration panels or a CAS panel to do and not some unreliable scientific test.

The Supreme Court of Canada, like most countries with an advanced legal system had this to say in the case of R v Beland, [1987] 2 SCR 398, about the admissibility of the polygraph,

"In conclusion, it is my opinion, based upon a consideration of rules of evidence long established and applied in our courts, that the polygraph has no place in the judicial process where it is employed as a tool to determine or to test the credibility of witnesses."

PS I am a huge AC fan like you, and I have had to defend him ad nauseam in the Clinic making me the target of much criticism, but this does not detract from the problems with polygraph evidence. I don't fault for AC's lawyers trying to rely on this evidence. If I was his lawyer I would have done the same thing but there are real problems with these tests.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

If you don't believe you've done anything wrong, surely it's impossibly to fail a lie detector test.

No actually it is not. When an innocent person is accused of a crime or some sort of wrongful act, many but not all, have a heightened sense of nervousness that causes the physiological markers used in the polygraph to be misinterpreted by the polygraph examiner.

These markers are 1. galvanic skin response, 2.heart rate, 3. blood pressure, and 4 heart rate.

This heightened physiological arousal is what can skew the results of a polygraph particularly where the examiner mistakes them for guilt.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Can you imagine Armstrong not beating a polygraph test with ease?

Nope!!!!!!

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Why would CAS accept it as part of the defence if it's inadmissable?

The CAS did accept the results of the polygraph results in AC's case. This was an exception to the general rule. They noted that Swiss law prohibits the results of polygraphs. But it appears they allowed the results in this case for two reasons,

1. WADA and the UCI did not object to their admissibility

2. The results would only be used to corroborate AC's evidence and not as proof that he was telling the truth.

What the CAS said was this,

394. In light of the foregoing, the Panel takes good note of the fact that the results of the polygraph corroborate Mr Contador’s own assertions, the credibility of which must nonetheless be verified in light of all the other elements of proof adduced. In other words, the Panel considers that the results of the polygraph add some force to M Contador’s declaration of innocence but do not, by nature, trump other elements of evidence.

So in the circumstances of this case the polygraph results were admitted and they "added some force" to the credibility of AC's evidence but the CAS made it clear these results were not "by nature" proof that AC was telling the truth. What the Panel means "by nature" is that the polygraph results cannot prove AC was telling the truth.

I think the admissibility of the polygraph results in this case should be confined to the facts of this case and not be taken as a general rule that polygraph results are always admissible in doping arbitration cases. The CAS generally gives respect to Swiss law. Although lawyers will try to make this decision a precedent.

Panelists in arbitrations are always going to say, "The decision as to whether or not a person is telling the truth is up to me and not some machine and the opinion of a polygraph examiner" After all an opinion is just that - an opinion. The problem with opinions is they can be wrong! Like Hitch's opinion that AC is currently doping.

 

[NaturalClen]

I think Contador should fill a late appeal claiming that he ordered chinese food.

If it works for Rogers why not give it a try?

 

[neineinei]

I think Contador should fill a late appeal claiming that he ordered chinese food.

If it works for Rogers why not give it a try?

If anything he should pay Breyne's wages for a year. Breyne's case probably saved Rogers. It would be a lot harder to not sanction Rogers if there wasn't another cases in China at the same time. Breyne gave Contador back a very important domestique.

If anyone deserves a chance for a late appeal it is Fuyu Li.

 

[the sceptic]

Tinkov spoke to Cyclingnews prior to the race and backed Rogers to make Alberto Contador’s Tour de France team.

“Of course I’m happy that he’s back because he’s a great helper for Roman today in the race and will be for Alberto Contador in the Tour de France. He’s a powerful missile,” Tinkov told Cyclingnews.

“We’ll see [about the Tour], normally yes but it depends. If he abandons all the races before the Tour de France then he won’t do it,” Tinkov joked.

gotta love Tinkov.

 

[NaturalClen]

According to Riis , Contador " has a good programme", better than 2011 Clenberto

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riis-this-is-the-best-contador-since-he-joined-the-team

 

[the sceptic]

According to Riis , Contador " has a good programme", better than 2011 Clenberto

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riis-this-is-the-best-contador-since-he-joined-the-team

but worse than Froome

 

[LaFlorecita]

but worse than Froome

We don't know that yet

 

[RobbieCanuck]

According to Riis , Contador " has a good programme", better than 2011 Clenberto

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riis-this-is-the-best-contador-since-he-joined-the-team

A pretty puerile interpretation of Riis's use of the word programme.

 

[NaturalClen]

reposting this here because it's a beautiful post

nothing wrong with questioning froomie.

but please tell the world what contador performance do you actually know to be dope-free. how do you know contador is even marginally good? clean tour rookie talansky picked him off in the last climb of the TDF when contador's 2nd rest day top-off was beginning wear out. it boggles the mind. there is absolutely no logical way to argue that contador is naturally the most talented than any other rider. freakin' TJVG won 10 national junior championships. contador zero. but because of all his doped victories you think he is way more talented. ridiculous.

clentadoppucci is the biggest fraud in present day cycling. once he is banished for life (as he should have been many years ago), we can move onto the next biggest fraud. as long as he is out there grotesquely and unapologetically stealing, all efforts must be on banning him forever.

someone should put together a side-by-side video edit with clentadoppucci riding seated, straining, being dropped by freakin' nieve, talansky and others on the left and then on the right intercut footage of TDF 2007, 2009 and 2014 Basque with him sprinting up mountains like he doesn't need to breathe. it would be stunning.

 

[LaFlorecita]

It's a typical post of Big Doopie. Not beautiful at all. Bertie is awesome.

 

[LaFlorecita]

PS, Bertie won 15 (IIRC) KOM prizes during his first junior year.

 

[stutue]

Deep down, its a real farce isn't it, pro cycling.

 

[msjett]

Everytime I read the title of this thread I think, Goodness I hope so...which is probably really wrong of me to think....but hey! his performances can't be any more ridiculous than some we have seen in recent years.

 

[Big Doopie]

PS, Bertie won 15 (IIRC) KOM prizes during his first junior year.

Pps. Couldn't tt until he came under saiz' wing.

Has chosen doping teams and doping ds ever since. He can only be a gc contender if he can tt. Same with pantani. Always going to lose 5-6 mins in the tts... Until epo/blood doping. O2 vector doping can make (good responder) tiny climbers tt and hulking flat landers climb. Clentadoppucci would never have won a single gt without the dope. Simple as that.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Pps. Couldn't tt until he came under saiz' wing.

Has chosen doping teams and doping ds ever since. He can only be a gc contender if he can tt. Same with pantani. Always going to lose 5-6 mins in the tts... Until epo/blood doping. O2 vector doping can make (good responder) tiny climbers tt and hulking flat landers climb. Clentadoppucci would never have won a single gt without the dope. Simple as that.

You have absolutely no proof to back up that claim. C'mon show me the evidence that Contador is only good because of doping. Show me that he doesn't have any talent. Sorry Big Dopie but you can't. Sucks for you.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Why do you have to give him an italian name? we have enough dopers, thank you very much.