Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

[LaFlorecita]

how can someone troll facts? He took drugs. Got busted. Lost titles. End of story. Nobody cares anymore except his fanboys. If you think it's okay to win titles whole doping that's fine, that's your opinion and your entitled to it.

There's a poll on CN twitter with 2000 votes "did Contador win 9 GTs? Yes. No." and the result is pretty much 50-50. So it's not just "fanboys"

 

[hrotha]

Contador only spouts BS "when asked"? Did anybody force him to tour several trashy TV shows to put up a circus back when he tested positive? What about the butcher whose reputation he didn't mind ruining for his own sake? That doesn't count?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Contador only spouts BS "when asked"? Did anybody force him to tour several trashy TV shows to put up a circus back when he tested positive? What about the butcher whose reputation he didn't mind ruining for his own sake? That doesn't count?

He was probably *asked* to appear in those TV shows.

 

[hrotha]

It was a tour that deviated markedly from his normal PR strategy. I reckon that was deliberate on his part.

Still though, being asked in public while you're talking to the media or whatever is not the same as being invited to a TV show and being asked there. Hitch's implicit point was that dopers must be excused when they say BS when cornered, but Contador quite obviously chose to be asked those questions, or he wouldn't have shown up.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

The only time contador is suggested to be not as strident in his answers, is when compared to sky.

Because he doesn't go as far as them in the bs and hypocrisy stakes

If all you are trying to say is that contador is a doper and serial liar, then I'm a bit surprised it's taken you this long to figure that out. Contador has always been full omerta and it's not like people here haven't called him out for it. 3-6 years ago the contador threads were thousands of pages long.

He's served his suspension though and is a conformed doper so most people take it for granted that this is what he is. Not like anyone here (besides Robbie cannuck) thinks contador is innocent or honest.

Do you have links for every time this has happened in the clinic?

If you want play show and tell, show us posts you were talking about when you said that "Contador is often suggested by people in the clinic to not be as strident in his answers".
Who is he being compared to? Not Sky? Good luck finding them.

This bias suggests that you do not want to argue a point unless you can fall back onto your well-trodden SKY diatribes.

A 30 000 post history of which only a fraction is about Sky, as well as the fact that I am either the author or most active poster in half the Valverde, Contador, Nibali, Rodriguez etc threads, suggests otherwise

As I addressed earlier, Contador does go as far as everybody else on the BS (clen steaks) and hypocrisy (jerseys) stakes,

Err, how that is hypocritical?

I have known what Contador is about since 2007

How did you know in 2007?

But his quotes about the current level of doping in the peloton are well worth discussing, feel free to participate or not.

Been there done that. What I am discussing now is the idea that claiming to have won 9 gts is hypocrisy or the idea that saying cycling is clean when asked "is it clean" is the same level of BS and deceit as demanding credit for being the "mastermind" who made it clean or inventing stories about ex dopers like Basso coming to you for reeducation.

 

[djpbaltimore]

You have not been discussing anything in this thread. What you have been doing is trying to put arguments into my mouth that I have not made so you can refute them. That is a pretty weak way to post IMO. It suggests that you can't debate me on the actual issues being discussed. My point is that claiming an absolute is likely not to be true. Contador's PR is likely to be discussed in reference most often with Froome, but I imagine that it was also discussed when Nibali made some strong comments during his TDF. That is what I based my opinion on.

Hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense. Contador makes a point that the jerseys are a testament to his hard work and sacrifice. He calls them clean and honest victories, despite the fact that he was found to have a PED in his blood during one of them. We know (and so does Contador) what those victories represent is his tremendous cycling talent and great willingness to dope. It is all pretense and posturing. 2 + 2..... But by all means, continue to defend the indefensible while vociferously stating that you are not defending him.

I knew in 2007 because he rode on a team led by Bruyneel. Or had you thought that Bruyneel had seen the light and turned over a new leaf after Lance had retired?

Congrats on your 30K post history. Some of them are terrific. But I think you are wearing blinders in this thread because you want to attack me like I am a SKY partisan.

 

[Walkman]

Re:

Contador is still on it. Froome beats him coz he's on it even more.

Does that apply to all the cyclists or just Froome and Contador?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Contador needs to keep quiet, smile pretty for the cameras, and let the legs do the talking. It's stupid to talk about doping, especially in the off-season, when there are so few stories to grab the public's attention. I know he has to say something when he's asked about it, but damn.

I do not appreciate the vote of confidence for Froome's cleanliness. I also find the use of the word "suicide" to be ill-advised, given that he's talking about the cavernoma in the same interview. It's never good for people to be reminded that you continued to transfuse blood post-cavernoma. Kind of hard to explain that away as anything other than full-blown, hardcore doping. I'd like to keep telling myself that his talent-to-doping level is at a better ratio.

It's difficult. If he condemns doping, or says cycling is clean now, people will see him as a liar and a hypocrite. If he is evasive or doesn't make bold anti-doping statements, people will see it as proof he is a doper. I'd rather he didn't speak about the subject, but he kinda has to.

I don't have an issue with the word suicide although in context I can see why you would find that ill-advised. I don't think blood transfusion are an issue, I'd be more worried about EPO use for example.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Contador only spouts BS "when asked"? Did anybody force him to tour several trashy TV shows to put up a circus back when he tested positive? What about the butcher whose reputation he didn't mind ruining for his own sake? That doesn't count?

I haven't heard of the butcher before or what happened but if Contador's lie hurt his business that is disgusting on his part.

As for the TV tour, that was all part of his defense against the doping accusation.

It was a tour that deviated markedly from his normal PR strategy. I reckon that was deliberate on his part.

Still though, being asked in public while you're talking to the media or whatever is not the same as being invited to a TV show and being asked there. Hitch's implicit point was that dopers must be excused when they say BS when cornered, but Contador quite obviously chose to be asked those questions, or he wouldn't have shown up.

Hitch's isn't saying you have to excuse anyone. All I'm saying is that its not true that an occasional "cycling is clean" comment from Contador is as bad or hypocritical as the unpleasant wolf in sheep's clothing behaviour of certain others.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Contador only spouts BS "when asked"? Did anybody force him to tour several trashy TV shows to put up a circus back when he tested positive? What about the butcher whose reputation he didn't mind ruining for his own sake? That doesn't count?

I haven't heard of the butcher before or what happened but if Contador's lie hurt his business that is disgusting on his part.

As for the TV tour, that was all part of his defense against the doping accusation.

It was a tour that deviated markedly from his normal PR strategy. I reckon that was deliberate on his part.

Still though, being asked in public while you're talking to the media or whatever is not the same as being invited to a TV show and being asked there. Hitch's implicit point was that dopers must be excused when they say BS when cornered, but Contador quite obviously chose to be asked those questions, or he wouldn't have shown up.

Hitch's isn't saying you have to excuse anyone. All I'm saying is that its not true that an occasional "cycling is clean" comment from Contador is as bad or hypocritical as the unpleasant wolf in sheep's clothing behaviour of certain others.

I don't think Contador ever really said something about the butcher.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

......hitch next you will be spurting 'but he only doped once............'........doping is doping just as hypocrisy

from alberto is as bad as others hypocrisy........there is no defence in saying......'others are worse......'

You are onto something.

Hypocrisy from Alberto would be bad, just as doping is bad.

But.......

He hasn't been hypocritical. He's just been a doper.

And that.....

is the difference.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Perhaps you would like to explain how he isn't saying one thing (that his wins were clean and honest) while doing something entirely different (doping for at least one of his victories and most likely all of them). Otherwise, that looks pretty hypocritical to me.

If Contador had said that the jerseys were hanging up because he was the strongest rider in those races and finished with the lowest elapsed time, I would have no problems with that at all. It is all the moralizing that is really cringe-worthy.

 

[hrotha]

It doesn't matter whether Contador's lie actually ended up hurting the butcher's business: hurting his business was a foreseeable consequence of the bogus defense Contador went with, but he didn't care.

Flo, Contador did say one thing about the butcher: namely, that he sold tainted meat.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

It doesn't matter whether Contador's lie actually ended up hurting the butcher's business: hurting his business was a foreseeable consequence of the bogus defense Contador went with, but he didn't care.

Flo, Contador did say one thing about the butcher: namely, that he sold tainted meat.

I do not believe for 1 second Alberto blamed the butcher. The farmer, maybe, but not the butcher.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Perhaps you would like to explain how he isn't saying one thing (that his wins were clean and honest) while doing something entirely different (doping for at least one of his victories and most likely all of them). Otherwise, that looks pretty hypocritical to me.
.

That is just straight up lying.

Like a kid saying the dog ate his homework.

According to your logic, that kid is saying one thing (that he is a kid who does his homework) while being something entirely different (a kid who didn't do his homework). Therefore he is also a hypocrite as is anyone who ever said a lie. The 2 words mean the same thing.

Claiming to be clean =/ claiming to be anti doping or campaigning for anti doping or demonizing other dopers for doing it.

The former is just a liar, the latter is a hypocrite.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Keep digging!

False virtue makes Contador an entirely different case. That is a poor analogy.

EDIT. A better analogy would be a kid who goes around telling people that he is honest and then tells the teacher that the dog ate his homework. A liar that professes honesty is a hypocrite.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

It doesn't matter whether Contador's lie actually ended up hurting the butcher's business: hurting his business was a foreseeable consequence of the bogus defense Contador went with, but he didn't care.

Flo, Contador did say one thing about the butcher: namely, that he sold tainted meat.

I do not believe for 1 second Alberto blamed the butcher. The farmer, maybe, but not the butcher.

It's not about the blame, it's about how the reputation of the butcher's store was or could have been affected. "That guy sells tainted meat, he's supplied by shady farmers and can't guarantee his meat is even healthy".

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Keep digging!

False virtue makes Contador an entirely different case. That is a poor analogy.

EDIT. A better analogy would be a kid who goes around telling people that he is honest and then tells the teacher that the dog ate his homework. A liar that professes honesty is a hypocrite.

I see we won't agree on the definition of hypocrisy.

Your original claim was that contador is just as bad as anyone else.
For me and many others, for obvious reasons
someone who merely claims to be honest is not as bad as someone who demonizes those who do something while doing it.

It's an imperfect analogy but what's worse. A homosexual man who tells everyone he is straight and even gets a sham marriage?

Or a homosexual man who tells everyone he is straight and preaches from the pulpit that homosexuality is a sin and tries his hardest to hurt those who have come out of the closet?

Now, homosexuality isnt a bad thing whereas doping is, but the purpose of the analogy isn't to compare the 2 but to show that someone who merely lies isnt necesarily as bad as someone who will run over anyone in their path to defend the lie.

There are quite a lot of unpleasant things contador doesn't engage in, including the disgusting practice of scapegoating fellow dopers or throwing mud at them or making false commitments to cleaning up cycling (don't actions speak louder than words?)

Which is why a quote of him saying "I am clean" is not evidence of him being just as bad as anyone else, as you said.

 

[djpbaltimore]

It seems like you're defining hypocrisy in such a narrow way so that you won't have to include Contador. We could argue about degree of hypocrisy until the cows come home, but hopefully I have made it clear that I don’t think Contador is the same zipcode as the SKY propaganda machine. That is to his credit, but yes, I still think he is as bad as the rest. I was shocked how far his recent comments went (Paraphrasing his answer as "I am clean" is an understatement IMO). He went well past what I would consider proper in his situation, but YMMV. I do enjoy the discussions. Agreement is not mandatory.

 

[Archibald]

how can someone troll facts? He took drugs. Got busted. Lost titles. End of story. Nobody cares anymore except his fanboys. If you think it's okay to win titles whole doping that's fine, that's your opinion and your entitled to it.

There's a poll on CN twitter with 2000 votes "did Contador win 9 GTs? Yes. No." and the result is pretty much 50-50. So it's not just "fanboys"

I'm no fanboy and I'd go 50/50 on this - no Tdf 2010, but I'd let him have the 2011 Giro. That was won on the same basis as any other recent GT and at the time he was allowed to compete. The retro-active bit on the part of the UCI and CAS jinning about was just wrong.

It's not about the blame, it's about how the reputation of the butcher's store was or could have been affected. "That guy sells tainted meat, he's supplied by shady farmers and can't guarantee his meat is even healthy".

Doubt it - Spanish fans will be overlooking that in favour of "He's Alberto's butcher!". It's not like he sold rancid and rotting meat.

 

[vedrafjord]

I think the big GC guys are all basically the same - they're all doping, they all know the others are doping, and they'll all deny it if asked. The difference with Froome is:
a) he took longer to get on the sauce so he has an incriminating jump in performance to explain away, but mostly:
b) he's more or less dominated the Tour for pretty much the last four years, which gets way more attention than any other race
c) this period coincided with Tyler's book, Lance's ban and confession, all the rest of it
All this means Froome gets a lot more scrutiny than the others, and the more you're questioned the more you have to deny.

I think a lot of people see Contador and Nibali, who are stylish riders from traditional cycling countries, and buy into the talent angle - the idea that they'd be natural champions if there was no dope in cycling beyond a nice cappuccino. They see Froome climbing with all the grace of a daddy long legs (the crane fly, my American friends, not the spider) and think "Him?".

The problem Froome represents for these people is that he strips away whatever romance is associated with the sport and leaves only one fact: watts win (grand tour) races, and style and panache, all that stuff, never meant anything anyway. The difference between the top riders is so small, and the difference high-octane doping makes is so big, that the only way we'd ever really know would be to lock them in a room for a year with a bike on rollers each, and push food under the door, and send them off to race.

And then we'd know.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Wow. Bertie is starting to sound like Lancey. That's never a good thing.

I know. This is how I'd put it.
(can someone translate it into Spanish for him)

Alberto we love you
on the road
you don't need to say this stuff
we saw you on the road
you blessed us with 9 great shows
let's not argue the toss about the official count
you are much bigger than that

I like it, very poetic

...

The way Alberto rides his bike is more like a Sonnet
and not the blank verse / doggerel of say Dawg.

 

[hrotha]

Doubt it - Spanish fans will be overlooking that in favour of "He's Alberto's butcher!". It's not like he sold rancid and rotting meat.

In the Basque Country? Yeah no.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Flo's got beef with Senor Zabaleta from Irun aka contadors butcher.

 

[dacooley]

froome is not better/worse than bertie or any other big riders with regards to doping. any attempts to measure level of hypocrisy just conceal one's bias.i can call numerous doping-related things i strongly dislike about both contador and froome, but that's way better to look at them from positive side. only with this way of thinking clear-headed cycling fans should percieve modern cycling because doping itself and willingness to explain all the things in a doping light gradually kill a sense of real bike racing.