Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

[WillemS]

Has anyone who has won anything tested positive for this stuff? It doesn't seem to be a game changer. You can't win a tour on it. The real dopers need blood. That's why they don't go well at the Dauphine. I agree with thehog that poor performance at the Dauphine marks out the dopers.

As someone said, look at Wiggens' performance last year, he won the Dauphiné. As it is the most recent example, it might be the most representative one for the current situation. Wiggens was good throughout the year, with very limited amount of pronounced troughs in his performance curve. That is indicative of metabolic modulators, not blood doping. I haven't had access to Wiggins' blood passport values, but I imagine his values to be relatively stable, giving anyone with access an easy excuse to claim he's clean. The effect size of metabolic modulators can be quite substantial. (With dangerously high, read cancer initiating, dosing levels, effect sizes up to an additional 70% in endurance are found with GW-501516 alone; estimated effect sizes of blood doping are much, much lower.)*

However, you also make another point, that no top rider has tested positive for GW-501516. While this may seem to indicate that the top finishers are not using metabolic modulators, it doesn't actually say much. Most metabolic modulators are just peptides, sequences of amino acids, and can easily be customized. As most of those products are not produced by the pharmaceutical industry, GW-50 did not even make it to the clinical trials, they are manufactured on custom order by sequencing labs in, e.g., Israel and China. Those labs can make about any custom amino acid sequence up to a certain size, but it comes at a price.

GW-501516 is relatively cheap on the "black market" of "research compounds", as it is ordered in bulk. However, as GW-50 is a discontinued research compound with a know structure and effective urine test, it is not usable by top riders. Unfortunately, this is not the end of the story. As you can order custom sequences, it is fairly easy to customize the peptide, order it from a sequencing lab (expensive!) and check if it still works. As you now have a new compound with an unknown sequence, it is virtually impossible to make a test for it. Thus, just as I expected, low-grade and young riders from the pro-continental tour are getting busted for the relatively low-budget GW-50, while top riders with higher budgets are near impossible to bust.

This customizing of doping is not a new thing, designer drugs have been around for while, starting out by customizing anabolic steroids and now they've moved on to the new generation of PEDs, such as GW and SARMS.

* Besides boosting endurance, the right metabolic modulators, like GW-501516 also make you lose weight like crazy, the initial reason for development of the drug (anti-obesity). High sustainable watts with extremely low body weight, sound familiar?

 

[Benotti69]

the sky science team gets better and better every day

marginal science gains

It wil soon be an 'ology' then a religion.

 

[jilbiker]

This is what I don't understand about some cycling fans. How can you so admire a rider for his attacking style when you freely admit that his reputation as a "great rider" was earned through doping - or at least doping better than his competition as did Armstrong.

It seems some Cycling 'fans' are as much part of the problem as the riders and doctors themselves. We might as well follow WWE Wrestling. Who cares what is real and what is not as long as its entertaining

We are long past that in ALL sports, from the juiced from sprint athletes to the juiced up Tennis players to the juiced up baseball players. Unless one wants to turn off their sports TV. LA could have been admired except for his nasty arrogrance....juice all you want but don't act like you are above the law, juice knowing that one day you will be caught...some day.

 

[LaFlorecita]

This is what I don't understand about some cycling fans. How can you so admire a rider for his attacking style when you freely admit that his reputation as a "great rider" was earned through doping - or at least doping better than his competition as did Armstrong.

It seems some Cycling 'fans' are as much part of the problem as the riders and doctors themselves. We might as well follow WWE Wrestling. Who cares what is real and what is not as long as its entertaining

cookster, I love Alberto as a rider. This is a feeling, I cannot decide to love a rider.

I would like him to be clean, but I know he isn't. Why should I fool myself?

I don't really think many cyclists are clean, and I can't know which riders are, and which aren't doping.

Not that it matters, I like the cyclists I like and admire them. If I dislike any rider that could be doping, I should stop following the sport I guess.

 

[WillemS]

cookster, I love Alberto as a rider. This is a feeling, I cannot decide to love a rider.

I would like him to be clean, but I know he isn't. Why should I fool myself?

I don't really think many cyclists are clean, and I can't know which riders are, and which aren't doping.

Not that it matters, I like the cyclists I like and admire them. If I dislike any rider that could be doping, I should stop following the sport I guess.

Can't agree with you more. Even archers use PEDs.

 

[LaFlorecita]

His poor performance this season is because he ended the microdosing. Too much risk now, as we have seen from Diluca and Santa. The problem with that is, when he takes out the blood its from a lower existing base, hence the greater performance losses. The allergy excuse no longer works. I think he should retire.

you are funny. I guess you are a wiggins fan. do you think he is clean? Is this a 'cycling is cleaner now so the clean anglos beat the dirty south europeans' stance?

 

[nevada]

As someone said, look at Wiggens' performance last year, he won the Dauphiné. As it is the most recent example, it might be the most representative one for the current situation. Wiggens was good throughout the year, with very limited amount of pronounced troughs in his performance curve. That is indicative of metabolic modulators, not blood doping. I haven't had access to Wiggins' blood passport values, but I imagine his values to be relatively stable, giving anyone with access an easy excuse to claim he's clean. The effect size of metabolic modulators can be quite substantial. (With dangerously high, read cancer initiating, dosing levels, effect sizes up to an additional 70% in endurance are found with GW-501516 alone; estimated effect sizes of blood doping are much, much lower.)*

However, you also make another point, that no top rider has tested positive for GW-501516. While this may seem to indicate that the top finishers are not using metabolic modulators, it doesn't actually say much. Most metabolic modulators are just peptides, sequences of amino acids, and can easily be customized. As most of those products are not produced by the pharmaceutical industry, GW-50 did not even make it to the clinical trials, they are manufactured on custom order by sequencing labs in, e.g., Israel and China. Those labs can make about any custom amino acid sequence up to a certain size, but it comes at a price.

GW-501516 is relatively cheap on the "black market" of "research compounds", as it is ordered in bulk. However, as GW-50 is a discontinued research compound with a know structure and effective urine test, it is not usable by top riders. Unfortunately, this is not the end of the story. As you can order custom sequences, it is fairly easy to customize the peptide, order it from a sequencing lab (expensive!) and check if it still works. As you now have a new compound with an unknown sequence, it is virtually impossible to make a test for it. Thus, just as I expected, low-grade and young riders from the pro-continental tour are getting busted for the relatively low-budget GW-50, while top riders with higher budgets are near impossible to bust.

This customizing of doping is not a new thing, designer drugs have been around for while, starting out by customizing anabolic steroids and now they've moved on to the new generation of PEDs, such as GW and SARMS.

* Besides boosting endurance, the right metabolic modulators, like GW-501516 also make you lose weight like crazy, the initial reason for development of the drug (anti-obesity). High sustainable watts with extremely low body weight, sound familiar?

And the final 'look" is Sky at last year tdf, never seen a whole team look so lean.

 

[Red Rick]

I agree it is despicable

Roflmao...

 

[SuperWiggo]

cookster, I love Alberto as a rider. This is a feeling, I cannot decide to love a rider.

I would like him to be clean, but I know he isn't. Why should I fool myself?

I don't really think many cyclists are clean, and I can't know which riders are, and which aren't doping.

Not that it matters, I like the cyclists I like and admire them. If I dislike any rider that could be doping, I should stop following the sport I guess.

I love Wiggo, and to a lesser extent Froome, because I know they are clean riders. Their team has no links to doping. Nobody believes Brailsford is anything but honest on the doping issue; he has proven his anti doping credentials by firing anybody remotely connected to historical doping on the team coaching staff. Whereas Contador chooses to work with Riis who we know for a fact sent riders to get blood transfusions. Chalk and cheese.

Why don't you switch from Contador to Wiggo or Froome today? Froome would probably suit you more in style and has always been as outspoken on the doping issue as Brad. More and more people are making the switch from supporting dopers to supporting Sky. There IS a different way.

 

[Red Rick]

As someone said, look at Wiggens' performance last year, he won the Dauphiné. As it is the most recent example, it might be the most representative one for the current situation. Wiggens was good throughout the year, with very limited amount of pronounced troughs in his performance curve. That is indicative of metabolic modulators, not blood doping. I haven't had access to Wiggins' blood passport values, but I imagine his values to be relatively stable, giving anyone with access an easy excuse to claim he's clean. The effect size of metabolic modulators can be quite substantial. (With dangerously high, read cancer initiating, dosing levels, effect sizes up to an additional 70% in endurance are found with GW-501516 alone; estimated effect sizes of blood doping are much, much lower.)*

However, you also make another point, that no top rider has tested positive for GW-501516. While this may seem to indicate that the top finishers are not using metabolic modulators, it doesn't actually say much. Most metabolic modulators are just peptides, sequences of amino acids, and can easily be customized. As most of those products are not produced by the pharmaceutical industry, GW-50 did not even make it to the clinical trials, they are manufactured on custom order by sequencing labs in, e.g., Israel and China. Those labs can make about any custom amino acid sequence up to a certain size, but it comes at a price.

GW-501516 is relatively cheap on the "black market" of "research compounds", as it is ordered in bulk. However, as GW-50 is a discontinued research compound with a know structure and effective urine test, it is not usable by top riders. Unfortunately, this is not the end of the story. As you can order custom sequences, it is fairly easy to customize the peptide, order it from a sequencing lab (expensive!) and check if it still works. As you now have a new compound with an unknown sequence, it is virtually impossible to make a test for it. Thus, just as I expected, low-grade and young riders from the pro-continental tour are getting busted for the relatively low-budget GW-50, while top riders with higher budgets are near impossible to bust.

This customizing of doping is not a new thing, designer drugs have been around for while, starting out by customizing anabolic steroids and now they've moved on to the new generation of PEDs, such as GW and SARMS.

* Besides boosting endurance, the right metabolic modulators, like GW-501516 also make you lose weight like crazy, the initial reason for development of the drug (anti-obesity). High sustainable watts with extremely low body weight, sound familiar?

Good post

I'm seriously wondering why so many people in the clinic know such a lot about stuff like this

 

[LaFlorecita]

I love Wiggo, and to a lesser extent Froome, because I know they are clean riders. Their team has no links to doping. Nobody believes Brailsford is anything but honest on the doping issue; he has proven his anti doping credentials by firing anybody remotely connected to historical doping on the team coaching staff. Whereas Contador chooses to work with Riis who we know for a fact sent riders to get blood transfusions. Chalk and cheese.

Why don't you switch from Contador to Wiggo or Froome today? Froome would probably suit you more in style and has always been as outspoken on the doping issue as Brad. More and more people are making the switch from supporting dopers to supporting Sky. There IS a different way.

ROFL is all I can say. Pretty funny stuff you got there. chapeau

 

[SuperWiggo]

you are funny. I guess you are a wiggins fan. do you think he is clean? Is this a 'cycling is cleaner now so the clean anglos beat the dirty south europeans' stance?

Of course they are clean. Nobody on the current sky team, rider or staff, knows how to use a needle. How the hell are they going to run a complex doping ring?

It's actually very complicated to have people running all over the place, smuggling drugs, making cross border runs, storing drugs in fridges, avoiding testers, dumping trash. USPS only barely got away with during their time where tests were thin - countless near misses, investigations into trash, disgruntled former employees, wives and girlfriends speaking out. EVERYBODY in the peloton knew what they were up to.

With Sky there is none of that, and that's under a much tighter regime in a different era. It's just not credible that they're doping.

 

[the sceptic]

yawn. not this crap again

 

[The Hitch]

This is what I don't understand about some cycling fans. How can you so admire a rider for his attacking style when you freely admit that his reputation as a "great rider" was earned through doping - or at least doping better than his competition as did Armstrong

Its a million times better than supporting guys who dope but closing your eyes to the reality. I ain't even bashing sky here. Why are Nadal, messi or bolt fans allowed to support their guy but Contador fans not theirs? It's ridiculous and anachronistic.

I find far more honesty in someone supporting a guy they aknowledge is flawed and doped then to cheer for a 9.59 second 100m and preach how wonderful it is that this was done in the name of clean sport.

 

[Telmisartan new]

I love Wiggo, and to a lesser extent Froome, because I know they are clean riders. Their team has no links to doping. Nobody believes Brailsford is anything but honest on the doping issue; he has proven his anti doping credentials by firing anybody remotely connected to historical doping on the team coaching staff. Whereas Contador chooses to work with Riis who we know for a fact sent riders to get blood transfusions. Chalk and cheese.

Why don't you switch from Contador to Wiggo or Froome today? Froome would probably suit you more in style and has always been as outspoken on the doping issue as Brad. More and more people are making the switch from supporting dopers to supporting Sky. There IS a different way.

A poor shabby attempt at trolling,pathetic really.

 

[The Hitch]

yawn. not this crap again

Please no one respond. it's clearly a windup.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Roflmao...

?
People that cheer for asumed cheats are the worst kind of fans, and they are not needed in this sport. Personally I just cheer for riders I know have been, and still are clean. Like Vino, Kash, Nibali, Ricco, Di Luca, Fuglsang (Yes, I know Birdsong go a bad reputation, but I don't think he would dope)

 

[B_Ugli]

This year there is massive pressure on Contador to deliver at the Tour partly to repay Riis and please the sponsors and also to silence his critics. The problem is that the only grand tour he has won since his comeback was in his home country (renowned for its lax anti doping stance) against Purito who put in some equally dubious performances In that race

The only way AC knows how to prepare is the old fashioned way, that is the way he has done it in the past and its his default method. He has been beaten all through through the year and panic is now setting in with him and Riis desperate for a result by any means.

AC version 2 simply isn't working and he is now panicking for that extra 10% that he once had. Whether the testers have noticed what his performance today has indicated to members of this forum remains to be seen.

 

[WillemS]

Good post

I'm seriously wondering why so many people in the clinic know such a lot about stuff like this

The truth is out there. Heh, sorry, I've been watching too much X-files lately.

It's actually pretty easy, I'm interested in doping and doping-related effects. With free and easy access to most scientific journals through a university and a lot of experience in reading journal papers from a different field (cognitive neuroscience), the stuff is pretty accessible for me.

Most 'newer' products have less research on them, as most of them have never seen clinical trials. However, it's easy to dig up user experiences on various "fitness" fora and gather anecdotal evidence. I've also tracked down several underground labs and reliable "research compound labs" and seen what they've been offering lately. If you want to read more, just search for "SARMS", combined with keywords like "dosage" or "order" or "not for human consumption". Follow the links and enjoy.

 

[Miburo]

So what's the theory behind this performance? It's not just cause he's not doping, he would be better than that. If that was his real level, then his dope must have been magical...Anyway there's no reason for him stop, he didn't get caught in giro 2011 so don't see the point...

Combination of allergies and extracting blood?

 

[Merckx index]

However, as GW-50 is a discontinued research compound with a know structure and effective urine test, it is not usable by top riders. Unfortunately, this is not the end of the story. As you can order custom sequences, it is fairly easy to customize the peptide, order it from a sequencing lab (expensive!) and check if it still works. As you now have a new compound with an unknown sequence, it is virtually impossible to make a test for it. Thus, just as I expected, low-grade and young riders from the pro-continental tour are getting busted for the relatively low-budget GW-50, while top riders with higher budgets are near impossible to bust.

Good post, but I’m not sure it’s that easy to produce an analog. GW501516 is not a peptide, but a ring structure involving two phenyl groups sandwiching a thio-pentane, linked at one end to acetic acid. AFAIK, only one analog has been reported in the literature. Given that it was pulled from further development despite a lot of promise because of side effects, I imagine that a lot of the obvious modifications have been tried, and not showing activity, or as much as the parent compound, have not been pursued.

If you did want to try to make an analog, you would probably first send a candidate compound to another lab to check for PPAR-d agonist activity. Assuming it was on the order of what GW50 expresses, then you would start testing it on your riders (illegally, of course; we’re not talking about just doping infractions here, but use of substances not approved for human consumption). But it might take a while before you could establish that it had significant PE effects. Remember, a few % increase in power could provide a huge advantage in bike racing. But to demonstrate that that few % was really significant you might need to study your subject over a period of weeks or months, even assuming that you had a good idea of the dose to be used.

It may be that using really high doses, much greater power increases are possible. But I have to believe even idiot dopers and their DSs, presented with a new compound, would try low doses first, and would not aim for any increase much more that what they calculated they would need to win. And the more intelligent dopers (oxymoron?) would want to try the drug over a period of time, even after they were sure of its PE effects, just to see if it had any detrimental (to performance) effects with chronic use.

Edit: I guess there's another GW drug under investigation now. But probably riders would not want to use that, as a test is likely to be developed for it. Keep in mind any of these substances can be detected if the testers know in advance what they're looking for.

 

[Contadoraus Schlecks]

So what's the theory behind this performance? It's not just cause he's not doping, he would be better than that. If that was his real level, then his dope must have been magical...Anyway there's no reason for him stop, he didn't get caught in giro 2011 so don't see the point...

Combination of allergies and extracting blood?

When is he likely to have done the actual extraction?

I don't know a lot about these things - why not extract a month ago? Is there a shelf life for the extraction?

 

[SuperWiggo]

Please no one respond. it's clearly a windup.

I think she is sincere.

 

[thehog]

When is he likely to have done the actual extraction?

I don't know a lot about these things - why not extract a month ago? Is there a shelf life for the extraction?

Timing is of the essence.

You want a good count.

Smash the training whilst microdosing. Take a break. Extract then race the Dauphine. You'll feel like death.

Recover prior to the Tour. Keep microdosing.

One bag before the start. One on each rest day.

Each bag will flush full of RBCs.

Porte has already bagged his last bag. He had to as he got sick. Once he recovered he trained a little and extracted it.

Timing.

 

[SuperWiggo]

Wiggens was good throughout the year, with very limited amount of pronounced troughs in his performance curve. That is indicative of metabolic modulators, not blood doping."

It's also consistent with being a clean rider. Again, has anyone who has won anything tested positive for GW-501516? All reports I've seen say it's another one of these weight loss drugs like clen. Hardly going to set the world on fire. It's very unlikely they would bother using this crude drug with the extraordinary risks. It certainly wouldn't be done on a team wide basis.