Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

[King Boonen]

So that would be on the order of several hundred dollars and tens of mL of blood every day. That's non trivial. How far down do you go? All protour riders? All pro conti? Seems a little unfair, wherever you draw the cutoff.

You missed at least one zero if not two...

 

[BYOP88]

So that would be on the order of several hundred dollars and tens of mL of blood every day. That's non trivial. How far down do you go? All protour riders? All pro conti? Seems a little unfair, wherever you draw the cutoff.

With the current system, the Continental teams aren't part of the bio-passport.

 

[proffate]

You missed at least one zero if not two...

Pretty sure I didn't, I've had most of these blood tests done in the US and while my health insurance covered 100% of it, a full battery of like 20 blood and urine tests costs around $1700 uninsured. So 3-5 tests would be several hundred.

I think that the numbers USAC quotes for bringing tests to local races are highly inflated by up-front costs like the need to drag along equipment (e.g. for refrigeration), hire professionals, etc. But in a normal lab setting like labcorp or quest diagnostics, those costs are amortized over many patients.

edit: still, even $100 a day is $36,500 per rider per year, and many riders don't even make that much as salary. So it's still completely impractical.

 

[King Boonen]

Pretty sure I didn't, I've had most of these blood tests done in the US and while my health insurance covered 100% of it, a full battery of like 20 blood and urine tests costs around $1700 uninsured. So 3-5 tests would be several hundred.

I think that the numbers USAC quotes for bringing tests to local races are highly inflated by up-front costs like the need to drag along equipment (e.g. for refrigeration), hire professionals, etc. But in a normal lab setting like labcorp or quest diagnostics, those costs are amortized over many patients.

edit: still, even $100 a day is $36,500 per rider per year, and many riders don't even make that much as salary. So it's still completely impractical.

You've forgotten that you need to pay for someone to collect the sample (can't be employed by the team), transport it and have it analysed on a much smaller scale than your routine blood tests with a higher standard of handling, then keep the B-sample in storage and possibly the A-sample for retroactive testing.

It is mainly the economies of scale and the logistics of travel and transport from a variety of locations that would add to the costs, but it's certainly going to be more than $100 a day. But yes, even based on that it's just not possible.

 

[MonkeyFace]

If you want to really make it hard to cheat, allow testing at anytime ,including at night and I have a kid so I know the world doesn't end if I have to get up in the middle of the night, and make the testing proportion to a riders salary. The main incentive to cheat is money. If you focus mainly on riders that are making the big bucks, you'll catch most of the cheats. The guys making the big bucks are the only ones that can afford sophisticated doping programs, anyways.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

So that would be on the order of several hundred dollars and tens of mL of
blood every day. That's non trivial. How far down do you go? All protour riders? All pro conti? Seems a little unfair, wherever you draw the cutoff.

BS All you need is a pin *** of blood and/or a urine sample. Tens of mL of blood? Where are you coming from?

Unfair? What we have now is unfair!

What I am talking about does not require blood to be sent to a lab. Hematocrit and hemoglobin levels can be determined by a team doctor. I am not sure about testosterone however.

Get the sponsors to pay for it! If they want us to buy their products or services based on their support of a cycling team then prove to us they are clean.

I am talking all pro tour riders only.

Look guys and girls, we talk incessantly about really doing something to clean up the sport, so lets do something!

 

[TANK91]

Your name tag says it all. Everyone will be a skeptic. My personal opinion for which I am prepared to take some flak is that AC is the best GT cyclist in the world clean.

I believe he is clearly talented just like i believe LA is talented but Contador was doping in 07 when he beat Rassmussen also many believe is brain stuff happend cuz of doping.

So how the hell can you say you think he is the best clean, their is no way to know is their, you could say back in 03 LA would be best clean we no that probz want be the case. For all we know everyone is doping and Froome use to be clean is now doping to compete, its all speculation.


I think Contador is clean just like Froome i want watch if i thought everyone was doping i certainly want live a sad life in the clinic and turn septic on everybody. Most in clinic are same people they will comment once or twice in RR section i bet their not fans just trolls imo.


What we have to think about Contador is maybe he needed a full year after only doing La Vuelta as he as a good base now that is why he is flying and i sort of like it i want Froome to drop him like a stone but man his Tirreno win was epic better than Froome as done b4 and AC has many wins like that.

 

[42x16ss]

What I am saying is Contador clean, and given all the other top GT contenders are also clean, Contador is the best GT cyclist in the world.

Assuming the top contenders are dirty and Conatador is clean, he is still the best GT cyclist in the world.

But you are correct how can one know?

It still comes back to what I have been arguing in the Clinic - transparency by the cyclists. IF it was a condition of holding an UCI license that every rider had to publicly publish or at least advise the UCI on a daily basis,

1. Their hematocrit level
2. Their hemoglobin
3. Their testosterone level
4. The results of every in competition and out of competition test
5. Their request for every TUE sought.
6. Any whereabouts violations

would there still be doping?

Diabetic patients have to measure their blood sugar levels at least daily. Determining these bio-markers on a daily basis is not hard to do, say by the team doctor or physio

Don Catlin long ago suggested the public publication of bio-markers based on regular urine and blood tests to determine a biological profile against which future measurements or test results could be measured.

Then we might be able to predict who is or was doping.

It appears however that cyclists today do not have the guts to agree to such a regime, in spite of the dirty history of their sport. Today's cyclists are content to CLAIM they are clean and expect us to believe them. I don't think they get it or understand the sordid history of the sport.

Daily? No way, these guys have a right to some privacy and normality in their everyday lives, then there's the costs to WADA/ADA's.

Micro managing your entire everyday life around the whereabouts system would be ridiculously hard. There would also be ridiculous amounts of tests missed because of training, physio/remedial work, sponsor commitments etc, then for married riders with families there's everyday life and the things that get thrown at you day to day from having kids. Imagine the outrage if a rider misses a test because they have to race out to the pharmacy or grocery store to help out their spouse? Got to keep things livable and realistic.

2-3 times a week? Certainly. I also support mandatory samples taken at team presentations/pre-race medicals for every rider participating in every race. IMO mandatory testing should also be happening on the rest days as well.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Daily? No way, these guys have a right to some privacy and normality in their everyday lives, then there's the costs to WADA/ADA's.

Micro managing your entire everyday life around the whereabouts system would be ridiculously hard. There would also be ridiculous amounts of tests missed because of training, physio/remedial work, sponsor commitments etc, then for married riders with families there's everyday life and the things that get thrown at you day to day from having kids. Imagine the outrage if a rider misses a test because they have to race out to the pharmacy or grocery store to help out their spouse? Got to keep things livable and realistic.

2-3 times a week? Certainly. I also support mandatory samples taken at team presentations/pre-race medicals for every rider participating in every race. IMO mandatory testing should also be happening on the rest days as well.

Regarding the daily argument, taking a small blood sample or a urine sample is like brushing your teeth. It is done within a minute and is hardly intrusive. If today's cyclists want to be known as clean A team doctor can do the whole team in less than half an hour. They have to compromise their right to privacy and "normality" to this minor degree.

Whereabouts is simply telling WADA or whoever where they are. It is like a 2 second text "I am on the beach at St. Tropez"

No professional rider who considers himself professional should miss an out of competition test. It is simply part of the rules of the sport. Going to the grocery store or the pharmacy as an explanation for missing a test is inexcusable. A test only takes about 15 minutes.

It is like a student saying "Sorry, I cannot write my exam today because I am grocery shopping but give me my degree anyways." Or a lawyer who sends a message to the judge s/he cannot be in court today because s/he has to buy his daughter some shoes! (I have three daughters who love shoes) The lawyer would be punted out of the profession.

You make it sound like these guys whole life will be interrupted when the whole daily process takes less time than making a cup of coffee. If you want to be a pro racer abide by the rules. It is no different than any other profession.

When is anyone going to get serious about doping? It is going to take some vigorous measures that will inconvenience riders in a small way, but go a long way to establishing credibility for the sport! Publicly reporting a cyclist's biomarkers will go a long way to cleaning up the sport and ending all the useless guessing about who is doping and who is not.

 

[proffate]

BS All you need is a pin *** of blood and/or a urine sample. Tens of mL of blood? Where are you coming from?

Where am I coming from? Personal experience. Each blood test requires 3-8mL of blood depending on the test. Where are you getting this "pinprick" notion from? Methinks your ***.

 

[42x16ss]

Regarding the daily argument, taking a small blood sample or a urine sample is like brushing your teeth. It is done within a minute and is hardly intrusive. If today's cyclists want to be known as clean A team doctor can do the whole team in less than half an hour. They have to compromise their right to privacy and "normality" to this minor degree.

Whereabouts is simply telling WADA or whoever where they are. It is like a 2 second text "I am on the beach at St. Tropez"

No professional rider who considers himself professional should miss an out of competition test. It is simply part of the rules of the sport. Going to the grocery store or the pharmacy as an explanation for missing a test is inexcusable. A test only takes about 15 minutes.

It is like a student saying "Sorry, I cannot write my exam today because I am grocery shopping but give me my degree anyways." Or a lawyer who sends a message to the judge s/he cannot be in court today because s/he has to buy his daughter some shoes! (I have three daughters who love shoes) The lawyer would be punted out of the profession.

You make it sound like these guys whole life will be interrupted when the whole daily process takes less time than making a cup of coffee. If you want to be a pro racer abide by the rules. It is no different than any other profession.

When is anyone going to get serious about doping? It is going to take some vigorous measures that will inconvenience riders in a small way, but go a long way to establishing credibility for the sport! Publicly reporting a cyclist's biomarkers will go a long way to cleaning up the sport and ending all the useless guessing about who is doping and who is not.

I take you've never had:

- To race out to pick up a sick/injured child from school or sport and possibly take them to the hospital
- A training ride go overtime due to flats, mechanical etc
- A sick/pregnant partner who has needed you to pick up daily chores/routines on immediate notice
- A morning/afternoon stuck in traffic jam
- A delayed flight/bus/train
- A spouse/children drag out a shopping trip
- A parent or close family member have a serious incident and need immediate support

See where I'm going here?

I'm not talking about accidentally finding yourself on the wrong continent (Rasmussen), or suddenly having more pressing business down the street the second a tester turns up (Rio Ferdinand). I'm talking about everyday life. When you start doing this stuff on a daily basis, on a moments notice there will be genuine missed tests. I'm not apologising, I'm trying to be realistic. Also the time that it takes to collect a random sample can be A LOT longer than 15 minutes.

The comparison to the student/lawyer is disingenuous at best and you know it I'm not saying the current testing schedule is adequate - it's not! However there is a basic right to privacy and daily testing is expensive, intrusive and largely unnecessary.

Lastly, how may riders are there in the World Tour? Let's say an average of 27 riders on 18 squads. That would be around 486 tests a day. I wish daily bio passport tests were feasible but you've got to stop and consider the human element

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Where am I coming from? Personal experience. Each blood test requires 3-8mL of blood depending on the test. Where are you getting this "pinprick" notion from? Methinks your ***.

You are talking about a blood test at a sporting event.

I am talking about a blood sample that will identify bio-markers. This does not require 3-8mL of blood. Blood is blood, whether it comes from the finger or is withdrawn with a syringe. I don't know where you studied the cardiovascular system but you have it wrong.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I believe he is clearly talented just like i believe LA is talented but Contador was doping in 07 when he beat Rassmussen also many believe is brain stuff happend cuz of doping.

This proves you're clueless. I'm sorry.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

I take you've never had:

- To race out to pick up a sick/injured child from school or sport and possibly take them to the hospital
- A training ride go overtime due to flats, mechanical etc
- A sick/pregnant partner who has needed you to pick up daily chores/routines on immediate notice
- A morning/afternoon stuck in traffic jam
- A delayed flight/bus/train
- A spouse/children drag out a shopping trip
- A parent or close family member have a serious incident and need immediate support

See where I'm going here?

I'm not talking about accidentally finding yourself on the wrong continent (Rasmussen), or suddenly having more pressing business down the street the second a tester turns up (Rio Ferdinand). I'm talking about everyday life. When you start doing this stuff on a daily basis, on a moments notice there will be genuine missed tests. I'm not apologising, I'm trying to be realistic. Also the time that it takes to collect a random sample can be A LOT longer than 15 minutes.

The comparison to the student/lawyer is disingenuous at best and you know it I'm not saying the current testing schedule is adequate - it's not! However there is a basic right to privacy and daily testing is expensive, intrusive and largely unnecessary.

Lastly, how may riders are there in the World Tour? Let's say an average of 27 riders on 18 squads. That would be around 486 tests a day. I wish daily bio passport tests were feasible but you've got to stop and consider the human element

Come on. We are talking about 500 guys whose career is cycling. Surely they can take 5 minutes out of their day to provide a small sample of blood or urine. We are not talking random sampling that can take a long time.

We are not talking about samples that would be sent to a lab. We are talking about a doctor on call taking samples to provide bio-markers. To take 27 samples would take about 30 - 45 minutes. All the guys have to do is turn up a tad earlier for a training ride.

I don't see where you are going. All I see is anti transparency cloaked in a specious argument that taking these samples is going to ruin a cyclists day or parental bonding, or buying a litre of milk for supper or what ever. This makes no sense when the credibility of cycling is in the tub.

When you are a professional cyclist, and you are trying to convince a skeptical public that you are clean, it makes no sense you would not go that extra mile to prove it. Doping has ruined cycling. The sport is a mess (and don't come on to me about other sports because they are irrelevant to cleaning up cycling).

If pro cyclists are professional and want a clean sport surely they should be willing to give up some privacy and momentary inconvenience. The issue is so critical to the survival of the sport one could even argue there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in these circumstances on public policy grounds.

My examples are not disingenuous especially because you simply say so. Do you want cycling cleaned up or is it you just don't want sampling to interfere with your daily latte time while you enjoy and preserve your privacy!

 

[LaFlorecita]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but you're mentioning a team doctor testing all the riders in 30 minutes. How is that going to work considering the riders live all across the world?

 

[LaFlorecita]

I also get the feeling this thread is venturing off topic. Something a bit more on topic:

@JonetHernandez: There's a rumors going around that Johan Bruyneel will implicate Alberto Contador in doping and damage Jonathan Vaughters & Frankie Andreu.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but you're mentioning a team doctor testing all the riders in 30 minutes. How is that going to work considering the riders live all across the world?

You are missing something. I am saying a doctor or perhaps a nurse or a technician taking 27 samples in 30 - 45 minutes. A technician could do the basic biomarker tests at a clinic lab. This is not rocket science. Blood testing has been going on since the late 19th and early 20th century.

We are not talking here testing for doping products just levels of things that are naturally in the blood - hemoglobin, testosterone and per cent of the red blood cells. This is very simple to test for and provides a biomarker or a baseline against which future sample tests can be compared for changes which would indicate doping.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

I also get the feeling this thread is venturing off topic. Something a bit more on topic:

@JonetHernandez: There's a rumors going around that Johan Bruyneel will implicate Alberto Contador in doping and damage Jonathan Vaughters & Frankie Andreu.

Rumours. Just what the Clinic needs is more rumours. Now that is really on topic!

The issue of this thread is would Contador be juiced when he returned to the Peloton as at August 5, 2012. Answer - No. There is no way Bruyneel would know this because he last worked with Contador in 2009. Now we can shut this thread down!

 

[Lanark]

I also get the feeling this thread is venturing off topic. Something a bit more on topic:

@JonetHernandez: There's a rumors going around that Johan Bruyneel will implicate Alberto Contador in doping and damage Jonathan Vaughters & Frankie Andreu.

God, that's scary. If Bruyneel goes down kicking and screaming, I'd might actually start liking him

 

[LaFlorecita]

You are missing something. I am saying a doctor or perhaps a nurse or a technician taking 27 samples in 30 - 45 minutes. A technician could do the basic biomarker tests at a clinic lab. This is not rocket science. Blood testing has been going on since the late 19th and early 20th century.

We are not talking here testing for doping products just levels of things that are naturally in the blood - hemoglobin, testosterone and per cent of the red blood cells. This is very simple to test for and provides a biomarker or a baseline against which future sample tests can be compared for changes which would indicate doping.

But how do they take 27 samples in 30 to 45 minutes if the riders live all across the world?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

God, that's scary. If Bruyneel goes down kicking and screaming, I'd might actually start liking him

Agree, this would be very good for the sport. A broad account from JB. In public. Not just about Contador.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Rumours. Just what the Clinic needs is more rumours. Now that is really on topic!

The issue of this thread is would Contador be juiced when he returned to the Peloton as at August 5, 2012. Answer - No. There is no way Bruyneel would know this because he last worked with Contador in 2009. Now we can shut this thread down!

I don't know if there's a general thread in the Clinic dedicated to AC. I know there's the clen case thread, and this one obviously. I don't feel like searching for hours for a thread to post that in. PS it is always more on topic than that back and forth discussion about daily testing.

 

[King Boonen]

You are talking about a blood test at a sporting event.

I am talking about a blood sample that will identify bio-markers. This does not require 3-8mL of blood. Blood is blood, whether it comes from the finger or is withdrawn with a syringe. I don't know where you studied the cardiovascular system but you have it wrong.

Please state what "biomarkers" you are talking about, with references to the techniques you are expecting to be used to show that a "pin-***" of blood is all that is required. The testing procedures must be in use in current accredited WADA labs and meet the requisite handling and contamination protocols.


Even a hematocrit test takes more than a pin-***, not taking into account you need to run it at least three times.


Oh, and the minute you wanted to involve team doctors I'm afraid the idea went out the window, half the doctors in the current peloton have times to large scale doping programmes. Any tests would have to be carried out by independent analysts, it's the same reason teams aren't allowed to collect their own anti-doping controls.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

But how do they take 27 samples in 30 to 45 minutes if the riders live all across the world?

Cycling teams as you know train as a team, they are not spread all over the world. They do centralize for training camps and races. Although I grant you a team will send some riders to one race and another group of riders to another race, they still essentially race and train together. It is why they are called a team.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Cycling teams as you know train as a team, they are not spread all over the world. They do centralize for training camps and races. Although I grant you a team will send some riders to one race and another group of riders to another race, they still essentially race and train together. It is why they are called a team.

So you're not talking about daily tests in that case. Not daily as in 365 days a year. Rather during training camps and races. Now I understand.