- May 26, 2010
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sartoris said:
Can you point to 1 post that actually says "He's a cheat. Take all his wins away and then crucify him" or is this your OTT reaction to posters calling Contador, a rider who was given a 2 year ban by CAS and had his wins taken away by them?
If you ignore CAS and its rulings, cycling no longer remains a sport but something akin to american style wrestling.
- Jul 9, 2009
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sartoris said:
Your point (?) kind of loses it's value if you just make shi! up, huh.
Or to give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you don't realize that 7-2=5 not zero.
I can't believe I'm still hacking away at what has become one of the worst threads ever, but here we go:
In 1980 Rosie Ruiz won the Boston Marathon. Crossed the line to applause, received a winners medal and prize money. Everybody saw her celebrating with the winner's wreath on her head.
8 days later it was discovered the Ruiz had not followed the rules of the race, as she had taken a shortcut to the finish line. She had entered the race midway, but accidentally entered in front of all the other women! This is against the rules. Everyone was outraged when her cheating became evident, she was stripped of the win, and the 2nd place finisher was given the victory. She has never admitted to cheating.
Now who amongst the "AC has won 7 GT's" crowd thinks Rosie Ruiz is still the rightful winner of the 1980 Boston Marathon.
In 1980 Rosie Ruiz won the Boston Marathon. Crossed the line to applause, received a winners medal and prize money. Everybody saw her celebrating with the winner's wreath on her head.
8 days later it was discovered the Ruiz had not followed the rules of the race, as she had taken a shortcut to the finish line. She had entered the race midway, but accidentally entered in front of all the other women! This is against the rules. Everyone was outraged when her cheating became evident, she was stripped of the win, and the 2nd place finisher was given the victory. She has never admitted to cheating.
Now who amongst the "AC has won 7 GT's" crowd thinks Rosie Ruiz is still the rightful winner of the 1980 Boston Marathon.
- Aug 29, 2011
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Contador has (rightfully) won 6 GT's, IMO though I still count 7
I still have not heard a convincing argument why he would have only won 5.
I still have not heard a convincing argument why he would have only won 5.
- Jun 10, 2010
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It's pretty simple really. He didn't win some races around the neighbourhood with his mates. He won officially sanctioned races with independent rules that are above him, according to which he had to be stripped of two of those victories due to a suspension. That applies both to the Tour where he tested positive and to the Giro where he was disqualified a posteriori.Panda Claws said:
- Jul 25, 2009
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I'd never think I would say this one day, but the last few pages would actually vindicate the argument about double standards that some Lance's fans repeated ad nauseum...
I'm not too worked up on the whole number issue myself, to be fair, but some Contador fans do seem to be hasty to proceed with a full whitewash of Bertie.
I'm not too worked up on the whole number issue myself, to be fair, but some Contador fans do seem to be hasty to proceed with a full whitewash of Bertie.
- Aug 31, 2012
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- Jul 25, 2009
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Please excuse me for the terrible analogy I am about to make, but the whole thing reminds me of an abusive relationship.
"He only doped this once and he did not meant to, he is still the winner in my heart"
Let us be glad that Armstrong never bothered to hide how mean and petty he could be. Otherwise we might today be talking of his retirement instead of downfall.
"He only doped this once and he did not meant to, he is still the winner in my heart"
Let us be glad that Armstrong never bothered to hide how mean and petty he could be. Otherwise we might today be talking of his retirement instead of downfall.
- Aug 12, 2009
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Sandy Chamois said:
Who are the twelve Apostles of the Clinic? Is there a reserve list? Where do I sign up? Who do I have to bribe, maim or kill to get on this list?
Which one is Judas? Figured I should get a heads up if you don't mind.
Contador thinks he won 7 GT's. Yes, in regards to him finishing in front of a lot of dopers then I agree. Plus it was only Clenbuterol use that stripped him of two GT's. 50 picograms that did him in. Hardly performance enhancing. However, if the rules permitted, he'd have been sanctioned with blood doping violations. He deserved to be stripped of his wins.
This doesn't alter how he rides a bike though. Still the best at that I'm afraid. But clean? No. Then again, many others are equally as bad. But that is just side stepping the issue and problem. Doping is still going on and is needed to win big races. Even worse is that the people behind cycling are once again trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fans and viewing public. Maybe if the median IQ in the sports power brokers and peloton were much higher, then the Clinic wouldn't exist, because we'd all buy the PR and BS.
Contador cops less flack than a lot of other riders on this forum because he is Spanish. He speaks almost entirely in Spanish. This forum is in English. So less AC spoken words to discuss. Unlike Armstrong. Also he generally keeps his mouth closed and deflects the doping questions very well. Nobody from what I can tell, grills any cyclist in the media. No current big name anyway. The cycling media are very lax and laisse faire regarding accountability and transparency. Check Talanksy's hypocrisy. Says a load of garbage and isn't put to task for it. No questioning, just blanket coverage, take their word.
Contador also stood up to Armstrong and denied him another Tour. Gets kudos for that. Classy bike rider and he attacks. He breaks the boring mould completely. Add it all together, people do consciously cut him more slack than others regarding doping. But at the end of the day, if you believe in clean sport, then yes, he did deserve to be sanctioned. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy his riding in the Vuelta. Or Valverde's.
- Sep 15, 2010
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Galic Ho said:Who are the twelve Apostles of the Clinic? Is there a reserve list? Where do I sign up? Who do I have to bribe, maim or kill to get on this list?
Which one is Judas? Figured I should get a heads up if you don't mind.
Contador thinks he won 7 GT's. Yes, in regards to him finishing in front of a lot of dopers then I agree. Plus it was only Clenbuterol use that stripped him of two GT's. 50 picograms that did him in. Hardly performance enhancing. However, if the rules permitted, he'd have been sanctioned with blood doping violations. He deserved to be stripped of his wins.
This doesn't alter how he rides a bike though. Still the best at that I'm afraid. But clean? No. Then again, many others are equally as bad. But that is just side stepping the issue and problem. Doping is still going on and is needed to win big races. Even worse is that the people behind cycling are once again trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fans and viewing public. Maybe if the median IQ in the sports power brokers and peloton were much higher, then the Clinic wouldn't exist, because we'd all buy the PR and BS.
Contador cops less flack than a lot of other riders on this forum because he is Spanish. He speaks almost entirely in Spanish. This forum is in English. So less AC spoken words to discuss. Unlike Armstrong. Also he generally keeps his mouth closed and deflects the doping questions very well. Nobody from what I can tell, grills any cyclist in the media. No current big name anyway. The cycling media are very lax and laisse faire regarding accountability and transparency. Check Talanksy's hypocrisy. Says a load of garbage and isn't put to task for it. No questioning, just blanket coverage, take their word.
Contador also stood up to Armstrong and denied him another Tour. Gets kudos for that. Classy bike rider and he attacks. He breaks the boring mould completely. Add it all together, people do consciously cut him more slack than others regarding doping. But at the end of the day, if you believe in clean sport, then yes, he did deserve to be sanctioned. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy his riding in the Vuelta. Or Valverde's.
- Aug 12, 2009
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TubularBills said:
I do agree with the picture. Hulk Hogan. Pro cycling has long resembled professional wresting. You don't take it seriously and both are over flowing to the rim with drugs.
Makes for good soap opera entertainment though, with a loosely assembled notion of sport and competition thrown in. Same struggles between the entertainers and their bosses on stage.
Can't say I ever noticed the cross draped around Hogan's chest before. Didn't think he was religious or Catholic?...what do I know. He slept with his daughters best friend. That's the last I heard of Hulk Hogan. Ruined a marriage and relationship with his daughter. Wonder when those skeletons will come out of Armstrong's closet? Granted his kids are too young and that was not my point, but no doubt he shagged someone's wife/sister/mum that was close to him. Contador? He's too quiet to have to worry about these skeletons emerging...that's because they don't exist. Just doping stuff. Bike riding aside, seems like your average normal young Spanish male.
Pistolero plummeted in my esteem when he held up seven fingers.
I'm not stupid enough to think that the top riders aren't still doping - but if you get caught, take it like a man.
I'm not stupid enough to think that the top riders aren't still doping - but if you get caught, take it like a man.
- Jan 20, 2011
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Stayed away from the forum for the past two days and surprised to see a discussion we had in the road section spilling over to the clinic.
1021874]wait a moment.. hypocrite. So what about merckx? anquetil?hinault? coppi? bartali?
if merckx sees himself as 11th time gt winner and you agree with that, then contador as every right to say what he wants.
.[/QUOTE]
The difference between merckx and Contador is, Merckx is officially an eleven time GT winner, while Alberto is officially at five.
It's plain and simple.
We had this discussion in the road forum also. I am a fan of Contador because of his attacking riding style and his passion for bike racing and ofc for beating Armstrong in 2009.
But iI consider Alberto as only a five time GT winner.
I do however give you credit for not been a hypocrite. You said you will consider Lance as a seven time GT winner and the same for Alberto, so at least you are consistent.
I consider real fans to be people who understand reality, not the ones who cling on to incorrect facts.
It's a fair point.
I think that is mainly because he's not liked in the Anglophone press.
I do think if Wiggins was in Bertie's situation they would be stressing,that the supplement was contaminated.
At the Olympics whenever American Swimmer Jessica Hardy who served a one year ban for a Clen positive was shown on screen and the doping ban inevitably came up, the expert commentator(ex Swimmer) was very keen to stress that the ban was due to a contaminated supplement.
.
As an AC fan I was not impressed with the "7 fingered salute". I can understand that if he actually is innocent of the clen charge, and never actually did dope, then in his heart he would know he won 7 GTs clean, but he needs to keep such sentiment to himself, or amongst family. To wave 7 fingers around in public is an insult to the quest for a dope-free sport. I am also not impressed with LaFlorecita saying AC fans like myself are not "real" AC fans.[/QUOTE].
It would be better if he avoided it. The pistol salute would have been sufficient.
Then why do you keep harping about Sky doping and that Talansky admiring Sky is implies he's doping?
Why should you care about what they are doing.
After all, you don't care about the rules. So, why should you care whether they are breaking rules or not.
If you have it your way, probably only Lemond would be a GT winner in the
past 50 years.
1021874]wait a moment.. hypocrite. So what about merckx? anquetil?hinault? coppi? bartali?
if merckx sees himself as 11th time gt winner and you agree with that, then contador as every right to say what he wants.
.[/QUOTE]
The difference between merckx and Contador is, Merckx is officially an eleven time GT winner, while Alberto is officially at five.
It's plain and simple.
LaFlorecita said:Isn't that understandable? I mean, why would a fan think any different
We had this discussion in the road forum also. I am a fan of Contador because of his attacking riding style and his passion for bike racing and ofc for beating Armstrong in 2009.
But iI consider Alberto as only a five time GT winner.
I do however give you credit for not been a hypocrite. You said you will consider Lance as a seven time GT winner and the same for Alberto, so at least you are consistent.
LaFlorecita said:
I consider real fans to be people who understand reality, not the ones who cling on to incorrect facts.
The Hitch said:
It's a fair point.
I think that is mainly because he's not liked in the Anglophone press.
I do think if Wiggins was in Bertie's situation they would be stressing,that the supplement was contaminated.
At the Olympics whenever American Swimmer Jessica Hardy who served a one year ban for a Clen positive was shown on screen and the doping ban inevitably came up, the expert commentator(ex Swimmer) was very keen to stress that the ban was due to a contaminated supplement.
.
As an AC fan I was not impressed with the "7 fingered salute". I can understand that if he actually is innocent of the clen charge, and never actually did dope, then in his heart he would know he won 7 GTs clean, but he needs to keep such sentiment to himself, or amongst family. To wave 7 fingers around in public is an insult to the quest for a dope-free sport. I am also not impressed with LaFlorecita saying AC fans like myself are not "real" AC fans.[/QUOTE].
It would be better if he avoided it. The pistol salute would have been sufficient.
sartoris said:
Then why do you keep harping about Sky doping and that Talansky admiring Sky is implies he's doping?
Why should you care about what they are doing.
After all, you don't care about the rules. So, why should you care whether they are breaking rules or not.
Big Doopie said:
If you have it your way, probably only Lemond would be a GT winner in the
past 50 years.
Here it goes, one last reply to this ridiculous thread filled with unreasonable fanboys (that's a tautology actually).
To the "7" claimers (including contador), yes we saw contador win those tours, however due to the rules he was stripped of those titles and now the official winners are Schleck & Scarponi. Therefor, Contador has no right to make the 7 finger salute.
If you still say it are 7 titles, then you don't care about rules and therefor shouldn't care about doping, otherwise your a hypocrite.
I wonder what these fanboys would do if contador would have been second, and now rightfully handed those wins, would they still think he wasn't entitled to them? Probably not
In regards to that, it's the reason why I hate fanboys. They narrow their view to their favorite, overseeing everything and everyone else. In essence I don't mind that, but keep it too yourself, don't pretent to "debate" anything.
To the "7" claimers (including contador), yes we saw contador win those tours, however due to the rules he was stripped of those titles and now the official winners are Schleck & Scarponi. Therefor, Contador has no right to make the 7 finger salute.
If you still say it are 7 titles, then you don't care about rules and therefor shouldn't care about doping, otherwise your a hypocrite.
I wonder what these fanboys would do if contador would have been second, and now rightfully handed those wins, would they still think he wasn't entitled to them? Probably not
In regards to that, it's the reason why I hate fanboys. They narrow their view to their favorite, overseeing everything and everyone else. In essence I don't mind that, but keep it too yourself, don't pretent to "debate" anything.
very true, he's not really taking his punishment like a real pistolero.Runitout said:
+1, it's really that simple.hrotha said:
Galic Ho said:Who are the twelve Apostles of the Clinic? Is there a reserve list? Where do I sign up? Who do I have to bribe, maim or kill to get on this list?
Which one is Judas? Figured I should get a heads up if you don't mind.
Contador thinks he won 7 GT's. Yes, in regards to him finishing in front of a lot of dopers then I agree. Plus it was only Clenbuterol use that stripped him of two GT's. 50 picograms that did him in. Hardly performance enhancing. However, if the rules permitted, he'd have been sanctioned with blood doping violations. He deserved to be stripped of his wins.
This doesn't alter how he rides a bike though. Still the best at that I'm afraid. But clean? No. Then again, many others are equally as bad. But that is just side stepping the issue and problem. Doping is still going on and is needed to win big races. Even worse is that the people behind cycling are once again trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fans and viewing public. Maybe if the median IQ in the sports power brokers and peloton were much higher, then the Clinic wouldn't exist, because we'd all buy the PR and BS.
Contador cops less flack than a lot of other riders on this forum because he is Spanish. He speaks almost entirely in Spanish. This forum is in English. So less AC spoken words to discuss. Unlike Armstrong. Also he generally keeps his mouth closed and deflects the doping questions very well. Nobody from what I can tell, grills any cyclist in the media. No current big name anyway. The cycling media are very lax and laisse faire regarding accountability and transparency. Check Talanksy's hypocrisy. Says a load of garbage and isn't put to task for it. No questioning, just blanket coverage, take their word.
Contador also stood up to Armstrong and denied him another Tour. Gets kudos for that. Classy bike rider and he attacks. He breaks the boring mould completely. Add it all together, people do consciously cut him more slack than others regarding doping. But at the end of the day, if you believe in clean sport, then yes, he did deserve to be sanctioned. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy his riding in the Vuelta. Or Valverde's.
excellent post.
only that there is some circularity in the argument that Dirty is such an attacking rider. We have no idea how much of his attacking strength is down to the quality of his program. It's plausible to assume that there are at least a couple of guys out there craving to attack Contador-style, but who simply aren't able to do so because their steak is only medium rare, whereas Dirty eats his well-cooked.
Granted, Dirty is on average more attacking than, say, Armstrong was, but there are other reasons for that: the GTs AC has won all developed differently than the ones LA has won. Dirty never had the team around him that Lance had, so Dirty was always compelled to be more attacking than Lance was.
I very much doubt that, if AC had a team like USPS or Sky around him, he would be as attacking as he is now.
- Jul 10, 2009
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You know the only repentant (semi-repentant) active major biker I have seen over the years is Basso. Well add David Millar but he is not in the GT winner class. AC must think the crowd is all swallowed up and he never doped. Mind you I am an AC fan, but lets get real, he did juice, especially bad prior to 2010.
Now for the 2010 TDF, if anyone remembers, AC seemed out of sorts in that race, people said bad form but after reading Tyler's book, I know that is just a cover up phrase. I think AC got a bad batch of blood bags during that race. I think the bags were messed up and the eventual result was the CB detected. It wasn't from the meat eaten, I believe it was from this bad BB that he got during the race. Interesting that the CB was detected right around rest day because that is the "recharge" day according to the book.
AC, Tyler's book has it all exposed! We are now an informed audience. AC still has skills I admire and the doping/BB seems to have toned down. Show some remorse even if you fake it.
Now for the 2010 TDF, if anyone remembers, AC seemed out of sorts in that race, people said bad form but after reading Tyler's book, I know that is just a cover up phrase. I think AC got a bad batch of blood bags during that race. I think the bags were messed up and the eventual result was the CB detected. It wasn't from the meat eaten, I believe it was from this bad BB that he got during the race. Interesting that the CB was detected right around rest day because that is the "recharge" day according to the book.
AC, Tyler's book has it all exposed! We are now an informed audience. AC still has skills I admire and the doping/BB seems to have toned down. Show some remorse even if you fake it.
jilbiker said:
more likely the performance dropoff can be attributed to the fact that he was no longer under the protection of bruyneel (and therefore the uci). he knew he would have no advance warnings of tests, etc...
one of the reasons the dopologists cannot claim even playing field.
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