Will Contador help Armstrong on Ventoux?

[Publicus]

Very true. But I have to say that I am incredibly impressed with Lance's results at le Tour. 3rd place (for now) after 3 years off the bike... bloody impressive. Credit given where due. But what was he doing trying to align his team in support of him instead of the much younger/faster/stronger Contador?

No doubt about it. For a 38 year old, with an almost 4 year break, he's done an amazing job. But as you point out, he's done NOTHING that isn't in his best interest. Notwithstanding that fact 95rpm thinks Contador should work to keep his position on podium as if he owes him something.

 

[ezratm]

"Not only did Contador win the Tour, but he got two teammates on the podium too, one of them the 7-time Tour champion."[/B][/I]

Hey here's an idea how about Contador bring the whole Astana team up front and TTT up the climb and get the entire team in to the top how good would that be then they can all be winers. Ha

 

[Publicus]

"Not only did Contador win the Tour, but he got two teammates on the podium too, one of them the 7-time Tour champion."[/B][/I]

Hey here's an idea how about Contador bring the whole Astana team up front and TTT up the climb and get the entire team in to the top how good would that be then they can all be winers. Ha

The other 7 riders don't matter. Must protect the status of the Dear Leader (for the non-political, that's Kim Jong Il's title)!

 

[Azdak6]

I've been on dude. Lance doesn't have it. You sound like a Versus personality assuming that he does despite 3 weeks worth of evidence to the contrary.

Why a yellow jersey winner would risk any time for a domestique to gain a podium spot is beyond me. Do you have an example of ANY yellow jersey winner ever doing such a thing?

There haven't been any scenarios like this one that I can remember where you had a yellow jersey winner and a domestique (or two, in this case) in this situation. You could argue that LeMond could have dropped Hinault on Alpe d'Huez in 1986, but that's not exactly the same scenario (and I don't know for certain that he could have).

In any case, whatever scenarios I can imagine where Contador helps Armstrong--none of them involve Contador risking any time (which makes for a tiny number of possibilities). And I don't think Armstrong is expecting that, either.

 

[rhubroma]

Sigh. He apologized for how his comments ended up sounding, not for what he intended them to mean, which is what I was defending.

Sorry if that's too nuanced for you.

You keep arguing, using this false nuanced drivel, this rediculous (and now pathetic) point, which only makes you seem more than an a$$ than you already are. And now you even have the gall to suggest it should be AC helping LA win the Ventoux! The absurdity of your arguments defies all comment.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I'm confused by your logic. Save Kloden, none of his teammates have killed themselves on his behalf (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall a 2004 Landis moment in this race). Contador doesn't need to help Lance for his sake, he's help his case by dominating the race. Contador is a great stage racer, whether or not his fellow teammates end up on podium is immaterial (I've yet to see someone singing his praises because Levi ended up on the podium at the 2007 Tour or the 2008 Vuelta, but then again I didn't Google such a thing).

Contador, if he learns English, is his own best ticket to success. He RACES.

In the simplest terms, it's good PR/karma for AC to help his teammates.
It would make him look good as a teammate.
It would make other riders want to ride for him.
He has a lot of cycling left in his legs, and the better he establishes himself as the guy who helps his teammates when he can, the more he potentially benefits.
It also would make him look good in the eyes of fans (a.k.a. customers of sponsors) who are currently referring to him as Contadork.

Also, there are usually many hidden benefits to helping others... that's what karma is ultimately about.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

No doubt about it. For a 38 year old, with an almost 4 year break, he's done an amazing job. But as you point out, he's done NOTHING that isn't in his best interest. Notwithstanding that fact 95rpm thinks Contador should work to keep his position on podium as if he owes him something.

As if he owes him something? What are you talking about? Have you read any of my posts? You're just making this stuff up, dude.

 

[Publicus]

There haven't been any scenarios like this one that I can remember where you had a yellow jersey winner and a domestique (or two, in this case) in this situation. You could argue that LeMond could have dropped Hinault on Alpe d'Huez in 1986, but that's not exactly the same scenario (and I don't know for certain that he could have).

In any case, whatever scenarios I can imagine where Contador helps Armstrong--none of them involve Contador risking any time (which makes for a tiny number of possibilities). And I don't think Armstrong is expecting that, either.

I agree, we are in uncharted territories, and that's the beauty of 95's post/question. Unfortunately, s/he has come to the conclusion that it is somehow in Contador's best interest to get as many of his teammates on the podium as possible. I swear I have no recollection of Lance concerning himself with his teammates final position or sacrificing himself for the podium interest of his domestiques. Apparently a 7-time TdF winner, who's been out of competition for 7 years and hasn't won a race against TdF/UCI competition can't be held to that standard so take it for what is worth in 95rpm's eyes.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

You keep arguing, using this false nuanced drivel, this rediculous (and now pathetic) point, which only makes you seem more than an a$$ than you already are. And now you even have the gall to suggest it should be AC helping LA win the Ventoux! The absurdity of your arguments defies all comment.

Ah, now there's some compelling reasoning.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

You keep arguing, using this false nuanced drivel, this rediculous (and now pathetic) point, which only makes you seem more than an a$$ than you already are. And now you even have the gall to suggest it should be AC helping LA win the Ventoux! The absurdity of your arguments defies all comment.

Apparently it is too nuanced for you. Sorry, but I can't help you with that. Worse, nobody can.

 

[Publicus]

In the simplest terms, it's good PR/karma for AC to help his teammates.
It would make him look good as a teammate.
It would make other riders want to ride for him.
He has a lot of cycling left in his legs, and the better he establishes himself as the guy who helps his teammates when he can, the more he potentially benefits.
It also would make him look good in the eyes of fans (a.k.a. customers of sponsors) who are currently referring to him as Contadork.

Also, there are usually many hidden benefits to helping others... that's what karma is ultimately about.

AC is not the source of the problems with Astana. In fact, he's done a great deal not to exacerbate the problems created by Armstrong.

Contador is a fan favorite because of the way he races. Helping Lance is irrelevant to that equation. He repays his teammates by giving them the prize money--just like Lance did in his heyday.

 

[Publicus]

As if he owes him something? What are you talking about? Have you read any of my posts? You're just making this stuff up, dude.

Sorry, it's late and I've enjoyed an alcoholic beverage or two (or three (don't tell my wife)). The remaining language or thought is that he somehow owes something to Armstrong. He doesn't.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I agree, we are in uncharted territories, and that's the beauty of 95's post/question. Unfortunately, s/he has come to the conclusion that it is somehow in Contador's best interest to get as many of his teammates on the podium as possible. I swear I have no recollection of Lance concerning himself with his teammates final position or sacrificing himself for the podium interest of his domestiques. Apparently a 7-time TdF winner, who's been out of competition for 7 years and hasn't won a race against TdF/UCI competition can't be held to that standard so take it for what is worth in 95rpm's eyes.

It's he, FWIW. I'm sure that's a big surprise.

As I recall, Lance never had anyone on his team with the potential to podium this close to the end, much less in a situation where he also had the mj basically sewn up.

But if he had been in such a situation, it would have been in his interest to help such a teammate, and his mistake if he didn't.

 

[labratty]

All this going round in circles is daft, 14 pages of it? He will almost definitely not get the chance to help his teammates. Andy will go, AC must follow and cover. If he stays down the road and gets a mechanical he could stilll lose the tour.
If they get to the last 500-1000 meters together he might as well attack and win the stage. No attack at that point is going to do any more damage to his teammates that ventoux has not already done, unless Frank has also managed to stay with them right up to that point. That will surprise me. In which case he leaves the attack until the last 100-200m.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Sorry, it's late and I've enjoyed an alcoholic beverage or two (or three (don't tell my wife)). The remaining language or thought is that he somehow owes something to Armstrong. He doesn't.

No worries and that explains much.

To be clear:

1) Contador owes Armstrong exactly this much: nada.
2) Never-the-less, if ACcan do something to help Lance stay or move up on the podium, it's in AC's interest to do so (for reasons explained above).

Now, to bed... only a few hours before the stage starts!!!

 

[Publicus]

It's he, FWIW. I'm sure that's a big surprise.

As I recall, Lance never had anyone on his team with the potential to podium this close to the end, much less in a situation where he also had the mj basically sewn up.

But if he had been in such a situation, it would have been in his interest to help such a teammate, and his mistake if he didn't.

Easy to say four years after he retired because he would have NEVER tolerated someone on his team that could have possibly (even remotely) challenged his MJ aspirations.

 

[Azdak6]

I'm confused by your logic. Save Kloden, none of his teammates have killed themselves on his behalf (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall a 2004 Landis moment in this race).

Because of the way the course was designed, you haven't had the type of stages where it was necessary to burn off all the team members during the stage.

Armstrong has worked for Contador when he was able--Contador has acknowledged that help in at least one post-race interview. Obviously, Armstrong has not been able to help against the Schlecks because he has not been able to keep up w/the accelerations.

Since we never have had a scenario like 2004, we will never know how Armstrong would have reacted had there been a tougher fight for the jersey and had he been required to play a role similar to Rubeira, Landis, et al. I am sure each individual's opinion will be a projection of their general feelings towards Armstrong, so the discussion is probably pointless.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Contador, if he learns English, is his own best ticket to success. He RACES.

He already speaks English. However Spanish is spoken more throughout the world than English. I love it how he only speaks Spanish in interviews...... saves him from being misquoted and from English speaking journo's asking the same mind numbing questions similar to the title of this thread.

One must remember that the Tour does not exsist for the English speaking world. In Germany for example there is not this daily diatribe of "Armstrong said"/"Contador said" news items. They actually talk about the racing.

The Gazetta in Italy features a different rider each day in their paper and it makes refreshing reading.

This Tour has been so boring. No so much for the defensive racing but by the Astana crew trying to making a movie out of the event when in reality nothing really way going on.

Contador was the best by far... there was no much more to write other than that.

I'm looking forward to seeing Andy getting better and future Tour's will be much more exciting. RadioSyringe back at the Tour next year will no doubt turn it into a circus again.

 

[Publicus]

No worries and that explains much.

To be clear:

1) Contador owes Armstrong exactly this much: nada.
2) Never-the-less, if ACcan do something to help Lance stay or move up on the podium, it's in AC's interest to do so (for reasons explained above).

Now, to bed... only a few hours before the stage starts!!!

One point, it's not in AC's best interest to help Lance with anything. F**ck Lance and his ambitions. Lance isn't thinking about anyone else but himself and never has.

And I'll be here in a few hours!

 

[Publicus]

Because of the way the course was designed, you haven't had the type of stages where it was necessary to burn off all the team members during the stage.

Armstrong has worked for Contador when he was able--Contador has acknowledged that help in at least one post-race interview. Obviously, Armstrong has not been able to help against the Schlecks because he has not been able to keep up w/the accelerations.

Since we never have had a scenario like 2004, we will never know how Armstrong would have reacted had there been a tougher fight for the jersey and had he been required to play a role similar to Rubeira, Landis, et al. I am sure each individual's opinion will be a projection of their general feelings towards Armstrong, so the discussion is probably pointless.

I haven't missed a stage so I am curious as to what Stage Armstrong WORKED for Contador. I don't recall any off the top of my head.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

One point, it's not in AC's best interest to help Lance with anything. F**ck Lance and his ambitions. Lance isn't thinking about anyone else but himself and never has.

And I'll be here in a few hours!

It's not about helping Lance per se.

It's about helping "a teammate" get on the podium simply because he's a teammate.

You know, the fact that AC clearly owes him nothing makes it that much more of an admirable gesture to help him never-the-less.

G'night!

 

[7starz]

Some of you guys are not understanding the thread title. The thread title says "will contador help LA on Ventoux" NOT "Will Contador gift LA the stage win on Ventoux." Another example of the many on this forum not paying attention to what they are reading and saying.

AC has a 4 minute lead. He won the TT as the Yellow Jersey should do and prove himself as a great champion. To not help any of his teamates would only damage his reputation.

With that being said, Kloden is the stronger rider out of Wiggins and LA. Probably equal to F Schleck. I see Kloden taking the 3rd podium spot and I see AC helping him do it. He owes him anyway. AC has the perfect opportunity to HELP ANDREAS KLODEN. I just hope his inability to understand race tactics doesnt get in the way.

+100%
Thank God someone here is paying attention!!

 

[Publicus]

It's not about helping Lance per se.

It's about helping "a teammate" get on the podium simply because he's a teammate.

You know, the fact that AC clearly owes him nothing makes it that much more of an admirable gesture to help him never-the-less.

G'night!

Your logic makes a lot more sense if it is someone who has buried himself on behalf of the yellow yersey (see Paulhino, Zubeldia, Rast or Kazakh).

Get some shut eye. Tomorrow is a new day!

 

[jamfra67]

Pedro delgado says "Alberto does not have to do anything spectacular,just stay with the other favourites and if the opportunity comes, take advantage of it. I think the attacks are going to be directed against Armstrong" "the fear that the others had of Armstrong is gone" "All the little dwarf's started to belive in themselves and suddenly Armstrong is beatable"

The badger says "No matter what happens, it is not the team manager who race. It will be the riders who decide andwho can smash the pedal the hardest"

Now i agree with both men comments. The opposition have smelled blood and the battle lines have been drawn. My prediction for the tour are 1. Contador 2. Andy Schleck, 3. Franks Schleck 4. Kloden, 5. Armstrong and 6. Wiggins

 

[Aguirre]

Contador should follow Andy all the time in the Ventoux, despite klodi and Lance. The yellow jersey should be with the direct rival, namely, Andy. It's what cycling rules says.

If not, helping Kloden and Armstrong is the risk to lost few minutes.

Franck will be third, Lance doesn't have the gas, as simple as that. I see kloden in 4 struggling with Franck.

All this, considering the science of cycling. Back to morals: Lance doesnt deserve AC help. Lance show up himself as being a hurt person, using his twitter to send poisonned "gifts" to AC, and not congratulating AC after his awesome win of yesterday.

It's that an exemplary teammate?